PC Well ... that escalated quickly!

[AtomicUs5000]

All those options and changing the perks any which way doesn't really help the tower defense path though.

I've started playing weird games lately because of the repair and ammo replenishing grind of taking that path. 10 minute days with horde night daily of 64 max, longest night length, and self-imposed rule of always fighting in the streets. It's fun as hell. I'm glad I have the option to play this way.... but I feel like I'm cheating on my beloved play style.

I'll miss you, base defense. You'll always have a special place in my heart.

 

[Laz Man]

All those options and changing the perks any which way doesn't really help the tower defense path though.I've started playing weird games lately because of the repair and ammo replenishing grind of taking that path. 10 minute days with horde night daily of 64 max, longest night length, and self-imposed rule of always fighting in the streets. It's fun as hell. I'm glad I have the option to play this way.... but I feel like I'm cheating on my beloved play style.

I'll miss you, base defense. You'll always have a special place in my heart.

Out of curiosity what would be the ideal horde night progression for you? Sorry if your already mentioned, feel free to point me to that post.

Edit: reread your linked post earlier. You mention a lack of reward and/or consequence. What type of reward/consequence would work for you?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Out of curiosity what would be the ideal horde night progression for you? Sorry if your already mentioned, feel free to point me to that post.

I've had a few different ideas in the past and I never really decided which of those would be best.

In general though, it would be very helpful to have some kind of reward to justify the expense. Alternatively, there should be some way, doesn't need to be an easy way, but some way to mitigate demolisher damage. Tower defense always has enemies with different attributes. The fun of it comes from combining your defenses, upgrading them, and arranging them in strategic ways in order to succeed. Many times you fail, but eventually you figure out something and that something changes as you progress. In no TD game ever, can you simply just leave what you are supposed to be defending, let alone have that be the only efficient way of dealing with the challenge presented to you.

It's been argued a million times that making it to and through the next BM should be its own reward... which sounds great to me, but the fact is that it just isn't. For a long time I played dead is dead to force this mindset. Like Orclover said in summation, you are punished for playing the way the game steers you.

 

[Orclover]

Ideal is impossible within the engine limitations. Glowies should be super rare but we should have on horde night is more zeds than we could ever possibly shoot on the screen at once, but not just attacking us (although we would be top priority) but attacking everything. Instead of following the AI trail to their doom they should be just tearing apart our base or POI, and attacking us if it suits them. But instead of bullet sponges we should face an army.

But the servers would melt. Which is too bad. So we get mini supermutants.

 

[Laz Man]

I've had a few different ideas in the past and I never really decided which of those would be best.In general though, it would be very helpful to have some kind of reward to justify the expense. Alternatively, there should be some way, doesn't need to be an easy way, but some way to mitigate demolisher damage. Tower defense always has enemies with different attributes. The fun of it comes from combining your defenses, upgrading them, and arranging them in strategic ways in order to succeed. Many times you fail, but eventually you figure out something and that something changes as you progress. In no TD game ever, can you simply just leave what you are supposed to be defending, let alone have that be the only efficient way of dealing with the challenge presented to you.

It's been argued a million times that making it to and through the next BM should be its own reward... which sounds great to me, but the fact is that it just isn't. For a long time I played dead is dead to force this mindset. Like Orclover said in summation, you are punished for playing the way the game steers you.

Punished as in rewarded XP and thus increased in game stage and/or the need to replenish resources after each horde night?

Aren't most TD games similar in a way that survival of any given challenge unlocks the next difficult challenge as well?

As far as resource replenishment is concerned, if the game was only a TD game, I would agree with you that the game shouldnt "punish" you for surviving. However the game is more than just a TD game, it is also a survival game, so some struggle is expected.

Now thank goodness the game can be modded to be more TD like if that's what your looking for. One such change is making zombie bag drops more frequent, have more rewarding loot, last longer before respawning, etc. Which can potentially mitigate the upkeep of bases.

Imagine zombie loot bags that contained concrete mix, more ammo, etc. Better yet make the tougher zombies drop the sweeter replenishing loot bags.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Ideal is impossible within the engine limitations. Glowies should be super rare but we should have on horde night is more zeds than we could ever possibly shoot on the screen at once, but not just attacking us (although we would be top priority) but attacking everything. Instead of following the AI trail to their doom they should be just tearing apart our base or POI, and attacking us if it suits them. But instead of bullet sponges we should face an army.

But the servers would melt. Which is too bad. So we get mini supermutants.

That part of it never really bothered me. I would be fine with the max 64 alive. The limitations are real, and I accept that... but they should too. There are a few special zombies, but the vast majority of them are the same. They attack your base the same.

Ideally, I would want a variety of attacking and a variety of possible defenses that focus on those. I have hard time explaining these thoughts so maybe listing all the things will help describe the kind of TD I would expect from the game...

I wish...

- that turrets had settings that prioritize targets within range (choose from closest, furthest, weakest strongest)

- to place 9mm turrets to handle bunches of fast but weak zombies.

- for a turret or weapon that might not damage zombies much, but disperses them as crowd control to handle the group zombie damage bonus they get.

- for another turret that is a step up from the one above that does the damage as well with a very slow rate of fire and requires some thought for the prefect placement.

- for ranged defenses to help take out the zombies with ranged attacks (the spitters) also slow rate of fire, requires nice placement.

- for some zombies to climb walls... and not just because that's the shortest path. They might decide to take an alternative route to the roof and then smash down to get me.

- for defenses to prevent said wall crawlers from doing that.

- for a trap that dismembers again.

- for spider zombies to have an attack while in the air.

- for blocks that make it hard for zombies to jump off of.

- for blocks that are good at explosion defense, but weak for direct zombie attacks.

- for blocks that are good at zombie attacks, but weak for explosions.

- for some zombies to fit through 1 meter holes.

- for demolishers to be super slow (it's only fair for the damage they do) so you have a chance to at least snipe them.

- that I could shoot the demolisher's button twice for an instant explosion

- that blade traps could be placed to safely hit a demolisher's head again

- for zombies to try something else and not loop

- for an advanced barbed wire that also causes bleed

- that the mines had noticeable radius differences

- that each of the not-so-special had different tower-attacking behavior, forcing me to place all mentioned defenses in strategic ways. Perhaps one tends to always attack supports, another is bothered by the turrets and targets them, another targets traps, another always wants shortest path to player.

- for at least one zombie immune to electric fence, but weak against other things

- for some zombies to be especially good at withstanding explosives, but weak against other things

- for survival reward that matches the upkeep

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Punished as in rewarded XP and thus increased in game stage and/or the need to replenish resources after each horde night?
Aren't most TD games similar in a way that survival of any given challenge unlocks the next difficult challenge as well?

As far as resource replenishment is concerned, if the game was only a TD game, I would agree with you that the game shouldnt "punish" you for surviving. However the game is more than just a TD game, it is also a survival game, so some struggle is expected.

Now thank goodness the game can be modded to be more TD like if that's what your looking for. One such change is making zombie bag drops more frequent, have more rewarding loot, last longer before respawning, etc. Which can potentially mitigate the upkeep of bases.

Imagine zombie loot bags that contained concrete mix, more ammo, etc. Better yet make the tougher zombies drop the sweeter replenishing loot bags.

I love the survival part of the game too. My love of the game is actually the mix of these things... otherwise I would just play a TD game, or just play a survival game. The struggle can be many things, and for most things on the survival side, the goal and the reward is less struggle. The tower defense is exponential grind punishment struggle that never ends... the opposite of that.

A good reward would be the tech of better defenses that require less grinding maintenance.

In the past, I've suggested tying in the air drops to BM. You survive, you get the goods... and those goods better be based on my gamestage since what I just went through was.

Yes, in TD you usually have it where the next round is harder. You also usually unlock new tech or upgrades in order to handle it, provided that you have a good strategy to maximize the effectiveness of all that.

 

[RipClaw]

Their intention was to add a new enemy with a powerful block destroying ability and for players to come up with creative and new ways to overcome them. They don't necessarily want players spending days doing repair busy work. They want you to deal with them in a new new way that minimizes damage to your fort if you can figure a way out.

The most effective way to deal with the demolisher is to shoot with an M60 an entire magazine of AP ammo at the demolisher and kill him before he can explode. However, shooting at zombies is pretty much the most uncreative thing I can imagine.

 

[Hazeree]

No. That is not all they were designed to do. It is what will happen if you insist on letting passive defenses handle everything but that is your choice and not TFP's intention. Their intention was to add a new enemy with a powerful block destroying ability and for players to come up with creative and new ways to overcome them. They don't necessarily want players spending days doing repair busy work. They want you to deal with them in a new new way that minimizes damage to your fort if you can figure a way out.
I can tell you this, the Devs value active participation by players during horde night.

And now someone will mention hiding at the top of a massive POI, driving around all night, and/or treading water. To that all I can say is one thing at a time....

Except this wonderfully creative idea of a demolisher actually promotes getting rid of most active defenses. Already tested that blade traps in every orientation will set off the explosion. Junk turrets and regular turrets will set off the trigger too early, and there is no time for a single player to spray him down before explosion.

As a single player, I have always actively fought BM hordes. I add active defenses to counter act the increasing difficulty of the BM. But ever since demolishers started appearing, I have had to remove those defenses. Right now, the only thing left to effectively counter act this rediculous idea of a boos zombie is to make a 8 x 8 solid tower of steel surrounded by a sea of iron spikes so I can slow the demolashers down enough to shoot a few of them without triggering explosions, which will still happen anyway. Repair is about 40 stacks of iron in spikes per week. Or about 1500 ingots. Take your pick. I go through 300+ spikes each blood moon, and requires 4 workbenches.

At least the old mods had interesting boos zeds. I dont mind the idea of increased difficulty, but this bastard has too much armor and hp for single player to deal with. I have seen my favorite streamers drop the game because they spent a dozen bloodmoons in shamway POI while they were slowly building up thier base to only have the entire base destroyed the first time they tried it out against the BM and pissed them off. And they were multiplayer that had a decent chance of killing demolishers when they heard the beeping sound. As a single player, once that beeping starts, you know its already too late.

I love this game, but I am only a few bloodmoons way from deleting these things from the xml file, which I hate doing.

 

[Ghostlight]

That is not all they were designed to do. It is what will happen if you insist on letting passive defenses handle everything but that is your choice and not TFP's intention.

This is a survival game. The very point of such games is for the player to collect, craft and build things that improve their quality of life, and reduce their busywork. It's the whole point. Surely arriving at a place were your base can passively kill the entire horde is the holy grail of a game like this? It what we should all aspire to (other than those who wish to simply avoid the horde).

Their intention was to add a new enemy with a powerful block destroying ability and for players to come up with creative and new ways to overcome them.

Then they failed in their intention then, since the easiest way to deal with them is to cheese them with exploits, which is the opposite of creative. These guys actively punish ACTIVE defense which sounds like the opposite of the intent. They reduce the effectiveness of blade traps and turrets (in non-exploiting bases) to the point they become liabilities rather than tools for a creative player to employ as they should be.

In short, these enemies promote exploitation of the AI.

 

[Ghostlight]

Out of curiosity what would be the ideal horde night progression for you? Sorry if your already mentioned, feel free to point me to that post.
Edit: reread your linked post earlier. You mention a lack of reward and/or consequence. What type of reward/consequence would work for you?

Personally I would welcome a late game devastating enemy that specialized in destroying blocks. BUT only if it destroyed blocks as the "thing that does" (in the same that leaping attacks and climbing walls are the "thing" that spider Zombies do. And NOT because my blade trap hit it or a stray bullet set it off accidentally.

My problem with the Demolishers is the trigger mechanic which ultimately makes so many things players enjoy doing - and specifically the thing players SHOULD be doing to defend their bases actively - set them off, thus it feels you are being punished for fighting them when you know avoiding them would be so much easier. If they were just big hulking zombies that had a lot of HP and perhaps only a tiny weakspot on their bodies, and they did heavy damage to blocks as some kind of special attack, I'd welcome them with open arms (and my Sniper Rifle aiming at their tiny weak-spot because my M60 is too inaccurate to reliably hit it).

Hell, how about ripping off the Tanks in L4D2, and have the boulders they throw be the thing that does 5000 damage around it?

Anyone remember when Radiated Cops were dangerous as hell? A16, I think. You HAD to hit their heads 5-ish times with your Sniper rifle asap. Something like that as a tiny weakspot you need to hit.

- - - Updated - - -

Ideal is impossible within the engine limitations. Glowies should be super rare but we should have on horde night is more zeds than we could ever possibly shoot on the screen at once, but not just attacking us (although we would be top priority) but attacking everything. Instead of following the AI trail to their doom they should be just tearing apart our base or POI, and attacking us if it suits them. But instead of bullet sponges we should face an army.

What? Like A16 once you were past ~day150??

- - - Updated - - -

The most effective way to deal with the demolisher is to shoot with an M60 an entire magazine of AP ammo at the demolisher and kill him before he can explode. However, shooting at zombies is pretty much the most uncreative thing I can imagine.

That's precisely how you make them explode.... :/

 

[RipClaw]

That's precisely how you make them explode.... :/

It depends. If you have a M60 with the rod and spring replacement, a drum magazine and you max out the machine gunner perk this thing is like the Minigun in Predator.

The demolisher has a two second delay before exploding. This gives you the time to stop the explosion by killing him.

With the drum magazin the M60 can hold up to 120 AP bullets and even without the perk and the mod you can shoot up to 450 rounds per minute. With the perk you can shoot 25% faster and the rod and spring replacement add another 30%. With both together you can fire almost 700 rounds per minute from this gun or 11 bullets per second.

The only difficulty is separating the demolisher from the other zombies for a clean shot.

By the way, I find these cheese bases very creative because it takes some outside the box thinking and some tinkering to come up with these solutions.

 

[meganoth]

Except this wonderfully creative idea of a demolisher actually promotes getting rid of most active defenses. Already tested that blade traps in every orientation will set off the explosion. Junk turrets and regular turrets will set off the trigger too early, and there is no time for a single player to spray him down before explosion.
As a single player, I have always actively fought BM hordes. I add active defenses to counter act the increasing difficulty of the BM. But ever since demolishers started appearing, I have had to remove those defenses. Right now, the only thing left to effectively counter act this rediculous idea of a boos zombie is to make a 8 x 8 solid tower of steel surrounded by a sea of iron spikes so I can slow the demolashers down enough to shoot a few of them without triggering explosions, which will still happen anyway. Repair is about 40 stacks of iron in spikes per week. Or about 1500 ingots. Take your pick. I go through 300+ spikes each blood moon, and requires 4 workbenches.

At least the old mods had interesting boos zeds. I dont mind the idea of increased difficulty, but this bastard has too much armor and hp for single player to deal with. I have seen my favorite streamers drop the game because they spent a dozen bloodmoons in shamway POI while they were slowly building up thier base to only have the entire base destroyed the first time they tried it out against the BM and pissed them off. And they were multiplayer that had a decent chance of killing demolishers when they heard the beeping sound. As a single player, once that beeping starts, you know its already too late.

I love this game, but I am only a few bloodmoons way from deleting these things from the xml file, which I hate doing.

Good points. But since you say iron spike traps, I thought the demo is immune to those!! Am I wrong and he is only immune to barbed wire?

Ideal is impossible within the engine limitations. Glowies should be super rare but we should have on horde night is more zeds than we could ever possibly shoot on the screen at once, but not just attacking us (although we would be top priority) but attacking everything. Instead of following the AI trail to their doom they should be just tearing apart our base or POI, and attacking us if it suits them. But instead of bullet sponges we should face an army.

But the servers would melt. Which is too bad. So we get mini supermutants.

How does dozens of zombies tearing up our base (as you said) and hitting on every wall reduce your repair bill?

 

[Orclover]

How does dozens of zombies tearing up our base (as you said) and hitting on every wall reduce your repair bill?

It doesnt lol. But I just think the zeds ONLY following the path of least resistance to get at the players is too easy to exploit and leads to endless loop bases and wood chipper alley style of base building. Players should be forced out of their kill zone occasionally and have to shoot a lone zed or two who has given up on heading into the death pit and instead decides to try and dig their way into your garden or garage. Keep us on our toes instead of sitting on our buts spitting lead in one direction constantly.

 

[RipClaw]

Players should be forced out of their kill zone occasionally and have to shoot a lone zed or two who has given up on heading into the death pit and instead decides to try and dig their way into your garden or garage. Keep us on our toes instead of sitting on our buts spitting lead in one direction constantly.

If there's two of you, you can do that. One takes care of the horde and the other takes care of the strays. But as a single player you can't do both at the same time.

 

[Ghostlight]

It depends. If you have a M60 with the rod and spring replacement, a drum magazine and you max out the machine gunner perk this thing is like the Minigun in Predator.
The demolisher has a two second delay before exploding. This gives you the time to stop the explosion by killing him.

Whoa there. Now it is indeed some time since I last fought Demolishers because I restarted my world recently in order to try the new base design and I have only gotten to day 14 thus far - so no Demolishers yet. However, last time I fought them, they definitely exploded even if you killed them. Basically if you heard the beeps they're gonna blow. Have they actually changed this?????

 

[RipClaw]

Whoa there. Now it is indeed some time since I last fought Demolishers because I restarted my world recently in order to try the new base design and I have only gotten to day 14 thus far - so no Demolishers yet. However, last time I fought them, they definitely exploded even if you killed them. Basically if you heard the beeps they're gonna blow. Have they actually changed this?????

No, that hasn't changed. Here is the section of the XML that controls it:

<property name="ExplodeDelay" value="2"/>

You can try it out in a creative game.

With the command

buff buffme

all your skill are maxed out. With

debuff buffme

you can reset it to where it was before.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Whoa there. Now it is indeed some time since I last fought Demolishers because I restarted my world recently in order to try the new base design and I have only gotten to day 14 thus far - so no Demolishers yet. However, last time I fought them, they definitely exploded even if you killed them. Basically if you heard the beeps they're gonna blow. Have they actually changed this?????

I believe they have. Originally you could even trigger the button after death and it would still explode. Faatal announced the change that they stopped explosions after death. I tested again and indeed it stopped. I also tested triggering the button after death. The button still triggers, but it doesn't do anything.

That explode delay setting applies to when the demolisher is alive and the button is triggered.

 

[RipClaw]

I believe they have. Originally you could even trigger the button after death and it would still explode. Faatal announced the change that they stopped explosions after death. I tested again and indeed it stopped. I also tested triggering the button after death. The button still triggers, but it doesn't do anything.
That explode delay setting applies to when the demolisher is alive and the button is triggered.

Was that during the experimental? I did the demolisher tests in stable.

 

[meganoth]

It doesnt lol. But I just think the zeds ONLY following the path of least resistance to get at the players is too easy to exploit and leads to endless loop bases and wood chipper alley style of base building. Players should be forced out of their kill zone occasionally and have to shoot a lone zed or two who has given up on heading into the death pit and instead decides to try and dig their way into your garden or garage. Keep us on our toes instead of sitting on our buts spitting lead in one direction constantly.

Well, the demolisher (according to molespeak) is supposed to force you out of the kill zone. And an actually viable strategy (as long as the zombies are not on nightmare speed) is to jump off your base, kite a demolisher away from the base and let him explode. (Or if he doesn't react to kiting anymore because he is in destroy mode you at least are able to shoot him safely in the back)

Zombies following path of least resistance has made it possible to build quite some interesting bases (IMHO), but also made lots of new exploits possible but such exploits existed in all zombie AI versions and need further development.

Your description "ONLY following path of least resistance" is wrong by the way. Zombies already have random behaviour included so that some of them already go into block destroy mode even if there is a clear path to the player. According to Fataal there is a chance that a zombie falling down (a ramp for example) will immediately enter block destroy mode. That chance might be too low though judging by the times ramps are still mentioned as functioning exploits. Since we often use a ramp as access-route to our horde base we regularily see zombies attacking the base of the ramp.