PC V3.0 Sandbox Siege Dev Diary

theFlu said:
He made his point; he doesn't like the railroading in the current game. There's no point in answering <#insert world> -arguments, they're infinite. His dislike isn't arguable.
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Eh, he stated TFP broke his playstyle, and when asked what exactly was broken he decided to go mute. It's a forum, anything is arguable, really. And I'm not even trying to argue, I'm just asking for his reasoning on a statement he made. I don't think that's unfair. If I just popped in and said the game sucks I'd imagine a common reply would be to ask me why I think that, no? He said just adding biome progression was railroading his preferred playstyle, but I don't see how that is, which I why I asked for an explanation. Especially if he has progression turned off. The gamestage/lootstage biome stuff has been there since at least 1.0 now, and other than the recent additions of some tougher biome spawns I don't see his issue. Which again...why I asked.

And beyond all of that, I was talking to him, not you. So unless you are aware of his reasons and wanna fill me in, I'm not sure why you're butting in and adding nothing.
 
bdubyah said:
I'm just asking for his reasoning on a statement he made. I don't think that's unfair.
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Did I miss something, or is this accurate: He was already annoyed by Roland's <#insert world>, and you hopped in with this gem:
bdubyah said:
So you are just afraid of being wrong?
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How is that "asking for his opinion" and not just outright trolling?

bdubyah said:
And beyond all of that, I was talking to him, not you.
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Him, Roland <> You, Me.

I have the patience to argue endless loops with Roland, but I get that not everyone does...
 
Space4Ace said:
I'm sure that, once the community manager job is in effect, we will get some news; possibly once they have things to share.
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Or the new CM is watching and reading and waiting. Like they taught me in TSG when a person
first calls with a problem, they are hot, just listen and say ok, and I see, and I understand, a lot.
Then when they cool down, you offer assistance.

The alternative is sticking something in a bee hive that shouldn't be there in the first place, and
getting stung.
 
theFlu said:
How is that "asking for his opinion" and not just outright trolling?
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Because Roland had already asked him to explain his stance and he just got defensive and made excuses. Again, why post here if you aren't willing to discuss your thoughts and opinions? And I already know from his previous posts that he's usually just gonna bash on the game and then avoid any actual discussion. Yet another one of those people who you wonder why they even still visit here if they hate everything about the game. ■■■■ gets tiring. Either make valid points and be open to discussion or just STFU.
theFlu said:
Did I miss something, or is this accurate: He was already annoyed by Roland's <#insert world>
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He doesn't like Roland, I guess. I don't give a ■■■■ about that. He said TFP is railroading his playstyle but refuses to explain his stance. I'll troll him if I feel like it. He doesn't need you defending him.
 
RyanX said:
When they added biome progression they also altered the difficulty per biome drastically. It's not simply a matter of turning off progression. I don't have a problem with difficulty per se (as some seem to try to suggest for easy insults), but rather a railroading tendency to force you to play a certain way. No, it goes beyond biome progression.
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How was the biome difficulty changed beyond the progression? Are you just referring to the new desert Rancher zombie with the bees? That's the only change to the desert difficulty. And those are actually very easy to deal with as long as you pay attention. The only time they really are annoying is horde night when the bees keep distracting you from fighting, and dropping a junk turret (or any turret) behind you solves that. In what other way are you thinking that the desert biome difficulty has changed? It doesn't seem any more difficult to me beyond the Ranchers/bees, and as I said, those are easy to deal with if you are paying attention to them. I could easily start in the desert on day 1... either by rushing the protective gear for it or else disabling that. The difficulty of the biome wouldn't be an issue at all.
 
Riamus said:
How was the biome difficulty changed beyond the progression?
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After @RyanX answered my multipart question. I think I finally understood. It's a sort of you would have to have been there
to get it. Prior the way the game played out, was as close to open sandbox as possible.

It was just a big lonesome expanse, that you had to travel through to get anything done. Traders, were not associated with
steps to progress, They were pretty much just hidden pois that you were really thankful when you came across them.

The key phrase was acceptable expected inconvenience, over time it has leaned more to convenience.

The biomes were just naturally more dangerous if you went there, mainly because there were the equivalent of horde level
entities wandering everywhere. Their sensitivity setting was one step away from feral. They did not have a small patrol area,
it was just more the length of time they would remember where you were headed if they lost sight of you.

Going to the wasteland, as a starter was a hard pass for many, just because everything was amped up.

Going to the Desert, had it's own sense of foreboding, because vultures attacked on sight.

If I am understanding correctly, Ryan wants to turn off any progression mechanic, if traders are spawned, then just have
them be randomized in the wilderness, turn up the entity volume. Instead of being guided, gen a map and make all of
your own choices from the start, with out the any guidance even though guidance can be ignored.

That is why I responded regarding the verbal intent of the options, maybe bridging the gap.

@RyanX correct me on any parts i misunderstand.
 
4sheetzngeegles said:
After @RyanX answered my multipart question. I think I finally understood. It's a sort of you would have to have been there
to get it. Prior the way the game played out, was as close to open sandbox as possible.

It was just a big lonesome expanse, that you had to travel through to get anything done. Traders, were not associated with
steps to progress, They were pretty much just hidden pois that you were really thankful when you came across them.

The key phrase was acceptable expected inconvenience, over time it has leaned more to convenience.

The biomes were just naturally more dangerous if you went there, mainly because there were the equivalent of horde level
entities wandering everywhere. Their sensitivity setting was one step away from feral. They did not have a small patrol area,
it was just more the length of time they would remember where you were headed if they lost sight of you.

Going to the wasteland, as a starter was a hard pass for many, just because everything was amped up.

Going to the Desert, had it's own sense of foreboding, because vultures attacked on sight.

If I am understanding correctly, Ryan wants to turn off any progression mechanic, if traders are spawned, then just have
them be randomized in the wilderness, turn up the entity volume. Instead of being guided, gen a map and make all of
your own choices from the start, with out the any guidance even though guidance can be ignored.

That is why I responded regarding the verbal intent of the options, maybe bridging the gap.

@RyanX correct me on any parts i misunderstand.
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That doesn't seem to match what he said, though. Unless I misunderstood, it sounds like he is saying that it's more difficult now in the desert than in the past, but you seem to be saying it's the opposite of that. If anything, I'd consider the vultures more difficult than the bees, so if that's what he meant, then I'd agree with that part of it.
 
RyanX said:
When they added biome progression they also altered the difficulty per biome drastically. It's not simply a matter of turning off progression. I don't have a problem with difficulty per se (as some seem to try to suggest for easy insults), but rather a railroading tendency to force you to play a certain way. No, it goes beyond biome progression.
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Riamus said:
That doesn't seem to match what he said, though. Unless I misunderstood, it sounds like he is saying that it's more difficult now in the desert than in the past, but you seem to be saying it's the opposite of that. If anything, I'd consider the vultures more difficult than the bees, so if that's what he meant, then I'd agree with that part of it.
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No, I may be misunderstanding. The above quote is what I am going by. It isn't the difficulty of being able
to survive, in other words the settings don't need to be turned down. It is that the overall gameplay feels
different. It was more of a raw, environmental interaction, basically because it was the beginning of the
game dev cycle.

When you started, there was no guidance, just you and the entities. You had to hunt for ore, vs having pointers,
although I understand that part partially, it came about because people that had color vision deficiency could
not differentiate the different terrain. That is just an example, not an explanation. I edited the textures to help a
few people, and tfp simplified it by making topological varying shapes for the ore deposit locations. Much better
and low maintenance solution. You should have seen the crafting matrix. It was rewarding when you finally figured
it out.

Over time more, you are here type guidance mechanics were added. Like do the starter quest, go to GPS'd trader,
do quests, get rewards. Do enough then gps to next trader. rinse repeat. Or ignore. I understand the initial quest, it
was added because some of the new players got frustrated, trying to figure out what to do, or how to interact with
the environment.

Is it bad, no, but it would feel different to someone that started playing at that time. Like the difference between
driving stick shift and an automatic. Both will get you to the same location, but one is more manual.
 
4sheetzngeegles said:
No, I may be misunderstanding. The above quote is what I am going by. It isn't the difficulty of being able
to survive, in other words the settings don't need to be turned down. It is that the overall gameplay feels
different. It was more of a raw, environmental interaction, basically because it was the beginning of the
game dev cycle.

When you started, there was no guidance, just you and the entities. You had to hunt for ore, vs having pointers,
although I understand that part partially, it came about because people that had color vision deficiency could
not differentiate the different terrain. That is just an example, not an explanation. I edited the textures to help a
few people, and tfp simplified it by making topological varying shapes for the ore deposit locations. Much better
and low maintenance solution. You should have seen the crafting matrix. It was rewarding when you finally figured
it out.

Over time more, you are here type guidance mechanics were added. Like do the starter quest, go to GPS'd trader,
do quests, get rewards. Do enough then gps to next trader. rinse repeat. Or ignore. I understand the initial quest, it
was added because some of the new players got frustrated, trying to figure out what to do, or how to interact with
the environment.

Is it bad, no, but it would feel different to someone that started playing at that time. Like the difference between
driving stick shift and an automatic. Both will get you to the same location, but one is more manual.
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Not sure. I was going by earlier things that they said. It isn't really that clear what they are actually upset about, beyond it relating to biomes, which is why I asked.

If we're talking about difficulty, the desert difficulty has not changed except in regards to vultures not constantly attacking you and adding the new Rancher/bees. Neither really changed it much, and you can definitely survive there on day 1 if you get the gear or turn off the progression.

If it's about railroading, you aren't really railroaded at all. Sure, you have to spend a short time unlocking the gear if you have biome progression turned on, and if you don't like that requirement, turning off biome progression removes that without really changing anything else. Either way, you aren't forced to do biomes in any specific order (railroading). Even the open trade route quests don't have to be done at any specific point in time. Don't want to go to the burnt forest? Don't do the open trade routes quest. Sure, there's some reward for doing it, but it's not critical. You can easily skip those quests until you feel like going to those biomes.

If it's about the progression of traders and stuff in RWG, forcing traders to be in specific biomes and not randomly around the may, I definitely agree that it is a dumb thing for a "Random" World Generator. But that will likely become a setting in 3.0. And regardless, that has nothing to do with difficulty, which is what they had been talking about.

So I'm just not sure what exactly they are referring to in regards to difficulty changing "drastically" for the desert biome because it hasn't.
 
4sheetzngeegles said:
No, I may be misunderstanding. The above quote is what I am going by. It isn't the difficulty of being able
to survive, in other words the settings don't need to be turned down. It is that the overall gameplay feels
different. It was more of a raw, environmental interaction, basically because it was the beginning of the
game dev cycle.
Click to expand...

I never had any issue with his desire to have the difficulty of the biomes be flattened somewhat again or to remove the necessary progression to prepare yourself for being able to live in different biomes. Those are his preferences and he isn't wrong to want to play that way. As I said, he will mostly be able to get back to that game state once 3.0 arrives. My only contention is his insistence that the changes are bad and garbage. In my opinion, the differences in the biomes are welcome. With the 2.5 changes you CAN live in other biomes from the beginning as long as you duck inside a house periodically to recover. That's a very gritty post-apocalyptic setting to play in that may not be appealing for every playthrough but fun for a challenge and roleplaying living in a toxic environment.

The game today is so much better than before (in my opinion) because you have the choice. You can keep all the settings vanilla and go to the desert on day one and try to survive in that kind of extreme environment. Or you can keep all the settings vanilla and go to the desert after you've leveled up, and geared up, and crafted the environmental protection gear and live there without all the suffering. Or you can turn off biome progression, storms, and hazards and just have it be desert-colored forest form day one. 3.0 Sandbox settings will further increase the ability to remove any and all progression systems if that is what is wanted. Its win win win.

4sheetzngeegles said:
Over time more, you are here type guidance mechanics were added. Like do the starter quest, go to GPS'd trader,
do quests, get rewards. Do enough then gps to next trader. rinse repeat. Or ignore.
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"Or ignore." That really is the key to it. I've played runs where I immediately canceled the starter quest because I wanted to check whether my nostalgic memories of needing to search for the trader were as great as I thought. It was fun for a trial. I might do that every once in a while but I also like doing my prelims and getting the directions to the first trader. The point is both ways of playing have been 100% available for years now without having to toggle any option or add any mod. Simply cancel the starter quest. I think nowadays you just never press W for any of the challenges in that top row and you'll effectively have to find the trader on your own. Simple as that. Anyone who refuses to do that but complains about the handholding tutorial ruining the vibe of what we used to have is lying about what they actually want.

3.0 does have options that will remove many of the guidance mechanics currently in the game. What I found is that toggling those created an interesting challenge for a run that I didn't necessarily wish to repeat for the very next run. As Alan just stated above, the team is very excited to see what people do and which settings rise to the top as "must always use" options for different groups of players.
 
Roland said:
Anyone who refuses to do that but complains about the handholding tutorial ruining the vibe of what we used to have is lying about what they actually want.
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Why do you have the need to shut down all other options other than .. laziness, incompetence or .. lying? Only a completely unimaginative mind would be unable to come up with valid complaints about this, or the earlier issue in the thread... (See how that feels? :P )
 
theFlu said:
Why do you have the need to shut down all other options other than .. laziness, incompetence or .. lying? Only a completely unimaginative mind would be unable to come up with valid complaints about this, or the earlier issue in the thread... (See how that feels? :P )
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I knew indirectly trolling me through someone else wouldn’t satisfy you for long. 🤣

My statement doesn’t shut down the complaint. I literally stated that the complaint was valid for that person. My statement about lying is restricted to complaining that there is a tutorial quest while there is an I game option to cancel it.

So since my mind is so unimaginative, please help a bro out and give some other reason why someone would complain about doing the tutorial quest rather than simply canceling it if they didn’t want to do it?
 
Roland said:
That's a very gritty post-apocalyptic setting to play in that may not be appealing for every playthrough but fun for a challenge and roleplaying living in a toxic environment.
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That is the way I play, I just turned up the intensity per biome, increased constant spawn, and made my
biomes smaller to have to deal with all biomes constantly. Image recreating the WD college run all the time.
Roland said:
The game today is so much better than before (in my opinion) because you have the choice.
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I agree mostly, I like the adjustable ai to make it more interactive environmentally. If the options
menus are as on point as you said, it will make my adjusting so much faster. Since it's xml I can add
to it. For the gpsed icons I just removed the Icons, only using distances, for the quests I only have the
names of the pois, no distance no map icon. I know it is in the same biome type so then I go look and
loot along the way.
 
Roland said:
So since my mind is so unimaginative, please help a bro out and give some other reason why someone would complain about doing the tutorial quest rather than simply canceling it if they didn’t want to do it?
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Well, in this case you would do well enough with having a memory... a completely valid complaint "about the handholding tutorial ruining the vibe" has been made and it goes roughly as follows:
It's boring But it's basically part of the character creation; it gives your character its specialization. 4 skill points make it really hard, and actually stupid, to skip. That reward is way too strong for a simple boring tutorial, especially when nothing else in game offers straight up skill points.

Roland said:
I knew indirectly trolling me through someone else wouldn’t satisfy you for long. 🤣
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... Thanks for the feed? :P
 
schwanz9000 said:
Hello everyone!

We're still here.
Just a LOT going on right now.

Wrapping up V3.0 and testing our butts off.
The Sandbox Options are INSANE and a TON of fun!
Can't wait to see what crazy settings and challenges y'all come up with.
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thanks for popping in...is this a one of? or can "we" expect to start getting the updated information soon?
 
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