V2.5+ Survival Revival Dev Diary

[Uncle Al]

That all sounds reasonable until you remember that they sold the game with dates. How'd they come up with dates IF it's only done when it's done, and there's no way to know how long these things will take? If their personal credo is that it doesn't go out until it's ready...what the ■■■■ happened with 2.5?
Timely honest Communication would be the grease between these friction points, but, "we" really don't even get THAT.
Y'all keep asking for dissenters to be reasonable without making any concessions yourselves...good grief.

I don't know which version you bought, but the one I bought didn't have dates on it. Sure, they put some dates on the roadmap, and have (unwisely) given dates a couple of times, but that's not 'selling the game with dates'.

How do you do estimates when you know the actual work required might vary a lot from your assumptions? You accept your estimates aren't going to be particularly accurate and will almost certainly change. Which is pretty much exactly what TFP did when sticking 'these dates are indicative and might change a lot' on the roadmap.

There's an unfortunate tradeoff in software development where effort you put into keeping people informed how you're doing slows down how much progress you actually make. There is a sad history of projects where everyone and their dog were kept informed of absolutely everything at all times, while no real value was ever delivered.

If you're really interested:

A lot of what the agile development methodology (which TFP appear to use) tries to do is abandon the traditional project culture of constant updates and detailed status reports in order to gain productivity. That's often doesn't sit well with Project Sponsors/Senior Responsible Owners, who are the people who effectively paid for development (well...it came out of their budget). They often require a lot of education that if they want the productivity gains of agile, they have to give up the (often false) feeling of security that precise milestones and release dates give.

None of us are sponsors or owners of 7DTD development. I'm actually surprised we get as much info as we do, but then again I'm probably more familiar with agile software development than the average gamer. Admittedly none of my knowledge relates to game development, but I have every reason to believe game development is worse than regular commercial software.

I saw a rather good conference speech by Chris Bourassa (Red Hook Studios -they made Darkest Dungeon) where he pointed out that game development is twice as hard as regular software development because even when you meet all your requirements, you can still find the gameplay isn't good. That means that estimates are even hazier in game development than commercial development, and they're hazy at best in commercial.

I'm no apologist for TFP, and there are undoubtedly things they could do better. That said, many of the expectations I see voiced fairly regularly on the boards are completely unreasonable and show a total unfamiliarity with how software development actually happens.

 

[HammerDano]

I don't know which version you bought, but the one I bought didn't have dates on it. Sure, they put some dates on the roadmap, and have (unwisely) given dates a couple of times, but that's not 'selling the game with dates'.

How do you do estimates when you know the actual work required might vary a lot from your assumptions? You accept your estimates aren't going to be particularly accurate and will almost certainly change. Which is pretty much exactly what TFP did when sticking 'these dates are indicative and might change a lot' on the roadmap.

There's an unfortunate tradeoff in software development where effort you put into keeping people informed how you're doing slows down how much progress you actually make. There is a sad history of projects where everyone and their dog were kept informed of absolutely everything at all times, while no real value was ever delivered.

If you're really interested:

A lot of what the agile development methodology (which TFP appear to use) tries to do is abandon the traditional project culture of constant updates and detailed status reports in order to gain productivity. That's often doesn't sit well with Project Sponsors/Senior Responsible Owners, who are the people who effectively paid for development (well...it came out of their budget). They often require a lot of education that if they want the productivity gains of agile, they have to give up the (often false) feeling of security that precise milestones and release dates give.

None of us are sponsors or owners of 7DTD development. I'm actually surprised we get as much info as we do, but then again I'm probably more familiar with agile software development than the average gamer. Admittedly none of my knowledge relates to game development, but I have every reason to believe game development is worse than regular commercial software.

I saw a rather good conference speech by Chris Bourassa (Red Hook Studios -they made Darkest Dungeon) where he pointed out that game development is twice as hard as regular software development because even when you meet all your requirements, you can still find the gameplay isn't good. That means that estimates are even hazier in game development than commercial development, and they're hazy at best in commercial.

I'm no apologist for TFP, and there are undoubtedly things they could do better. That said, many of the expectations I see voiced fairly regularly on the boards are completely unreasonable and show a total unfamiliarity with how software development actually happens.

Well...I'm in a real catch 22...if I answer you honestly, there will be the same people saying I'm just rehashing the same ■■■■ all over again.

the new version was sold with the road map (which was a strong selling feature to me and some people that I know bought the game again).
the original telltale version had no dates... so I did buy it once with no dates. lol

can't help but notice you did not address how did 2.5 go out so very broken.

It would have been "nice" if they had a least put out a post acknowledging that they knew it was broken and they were working on it. I'd consider THAT to be bare minimum PR stuff. Instead they stopped responding to people on their own posts...which became mostly just Streamer of the Week posts...which, unfortunately for those streamers, was all people had to post comments/ask questions on.

Joel said on Dec 30th

We are working on bandits and will start previewing some stuff real soon. We'll announce an updated roadmap too. I think we might even start putting previews of what's coming in the news launcher so anyone playing the game will know everything that's coming without getting on social media.

so where is any of that? or further communication indicating it is coming?

I know you can't answer that, but, I hope you get my point. He said that almost 2 months ago.

You say you can't believe we get this much communication and I can't believe they are still so poor at it.

 

[Space4Ace]

the new version was sold with the road map (which was a strong selling feature to me and some people that I know bought the game again).

The new version's Roadmap also had this written at the bottom that was very easy to read: "These Dates Are Rough Estimates And Subject To Change" (see below circled in red so it's even easier to read):



This is FAQ and it was posted before the release of the new console version. You can argue to infinitum, but things do change when in development and when people ask for things to be put back in the game, and that's why they put that text there on the bottom.
And lets not even talk about bug fixing... How can you put a date on that?

The only thing I could say is that, if TFP had better communication, they could at least let us know that this next update will take longer than expected because they encountered this thing and that thing. But please, no more dates! They mean nothing.

 

[beerfly]

So, last of the many pages posted in this forums are us trying to prove to just two guys who refuse to grow up and understand that some stuff takes time.

Darn.

Let`s move on.

What`s next #gate, #no spoons ?

 

[HammerDano]

The new version's Roadmap also had this written at the bottom that was very easy to read: "These Dates Are Rough Estimates And Subject To Change" (see below circled in red so it's even easier to read):

View attachment 38532

This is FAQ and it was posted before the release of the new console version. You can argue to infinitum, but things do change when in development and when people ask for things to be put back in the game, and that's why they put that text there on the bottom.
And lets not even talk about bug fixing... How can you put a date on that?

The only thing I could say is that, if TFP had better communication, they could at least let us know that this next update will take longer than expected because they encountered this thing and that thing. But please, no more dates! They mean nothing.

great...the "all dates subject to change" means forever is just fine, argument... the other dead horse.

For the record...I have NOT BEEN ASKING FOR DATES. They ARE pointless...because these guys NEVER meet them. They used the road map to entice people to buy back in and then hide behind other people stating "all dates subject to change" is a perfectly fine excuse for them to not say anything.

But, even YOU are showing frustration with the lack of communication.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

understand that some stuff takes time.

1.0 Released July 2024..
In your honest opinion when does "takes time" become "to much time"
people have already been waiting almost 2 years of time "it will be done when its done" lol

 

[HB_H4wk]

1.0 Released July 2024..
In your honest opinion when does "takes time" become "to much time"
people have already been waiting almost 2 years of time "it will be done when its done" lol

Learn some patience Minion.. FFS tired of the few of you complaining about how long the Updates/Changes take. Play the game as it is now or play something different for a change... but for the majority of us we don't mind waiting.

 

[Eduho]

Good morning... 40 pages discussing when this will come out, when that will come out, I don't know, this whole thing is starting to get a bit annoying, don't you have other things to talk about? .... And when version 2.6 comes out, will you give the same hassle for 2.7? Use your imagination, you can talk about other interesting things in the game instead of whining so much, it's embarrassing, you already have hair on your... let's be serious

 

[Dead Smarty]

Good morning... 40 pages discussing when this will come out, when that will come out, I don't know, this whole thing is starting to get a bit annoying, don't you have other things to talk about? .... And when version 2.6 comes out, will you give the same hassle for 2.7? Use your imagination, you can talk about other interesting things in the game instead of whining so much, it's embarrassing, you already have hair on your... let's be serious

And now, it's time for something different:
Drop crossplay, optimise current game for console to a stable version before adding new features while experiment for PC with newer versions.

Why? Cuz PC can go back to older versions but consoles are just forced to play latest version. And currently, the console version is getting buggy on longer playthroughs. Not complainig about stutters or fps, just basic stabilities and some mechanics randomly not working.

You sold us a v1.0, then make it at least a 1.0. Don't become a Wildcard please.

 

[Dead Smarty]

If there's going to be a screamers weekend, what are the qualifications?

Just lower your response to the level of an average gamer in the comments and you qualify just fine

 

[Kire]

Good morning... 40 pages discussing when this will come out, when that will come out, I don't know, this whole thing is starting to get a bit annoying, don't you have other things to talk about? .... And when version 2.6 comes out, will you give the same hassle for 2.7? Use your imagination, you can talk about other interesting things in the game instead of whining so much, it's embarrassing, you already have hair on your... let's be serious

What else is there to talk about, everyone here is waiting for the next update. And if not this, then its just a bunch of AI ■■■■ being posted

 

[Riamus]

What else is there to talk about, everyone here is waiting for the next update. And if not this, then its just a bunch of AI ■■■■ being posted

I think it's less that people are talking about the upcoming update and more that a couple of people are just constantly trolling.

And now, it's time for something different:
Drop crossplay, optimise current game for console to a stable version before adding new features while experiment for PC with newer versions.

Why? Cuz PC can go back to older versions but consoles are just forced to play latest version. And currently, the console version is getting buggy on longer playthroughs. Not complainig about stutters or fps, just basic stabilities and some mechanics randomly not working.

You sold us a v1.0, then make it at least a 1.0. Don't become a Wildcard please.

You might be fine with dropping crossplay, but I can guarantee that a lot of console players would be really upset if they did that, even if it was only until 3.0 or whenever. And console gets the same updates PC does, which means that if console is going to get updates to help with stuttering and performance issues, they either don't get those at all until there's some decision to finally update console again, or they get the same updates PC gets when PC gets them. You're better off getting the updates the same time PC does.

No, you can't play older versions or stay on a version, which can obviously be frustrating. I'd suggest all console players complain to Microsoft or Sony about forced game updates because they should be allowed to not update if that's what they want. But beyond that, you'll just need to either accept that you may have problems with the game while it's still in development. That, or don't play the game until it's finished. The game isn't complete/gold yet.

 

[HammerDano]

I think it's less that people are talking about the upcoming update and more that a couple of people are just constantly trolling.


You might be fine with dropping crossplay, but I can guarantee that a lot of console players would be really upset if they did that, even if it was only until 3.0 or whenever. And console gets the same updates PC does, which means that if console is going to get updates to help with stuttering and performance issues, they either don't get those at all until there's some decision to finally update console again, or they get the same updates PC gets when PC gets them. You're better off getting the updates the same time PC does.

No, you can't play older versions or stay on a version, which can obviously be frustrating. I'd suggest all console players complain to Microsoft or Sony about forced game updates because they should be allowed to not update if that's what they want. But beyond that, you'll just need to either accept that you may have problems with the game while it's still in development. That, or don't play the game until it's finished. The game isn't complete/gold yet.

so in summary...it's not fair to judge them on their work or lack thereof...just don't say anything and eventually they will finish the game. Complain to someone else when these guys put out something like 2.5 that makes the game unplayable for a while...and certainly don't complain that they didn't bother to respond about it. good grief.
square that up with "it takes as long as it takes"...I thought that also meant that they don't want to release stuff full of bugs so they need to take their time.
It's not trolling to expect a little better by now.
The game we paid for twice is still only halfway(?) done.
So when someone like Joel says that they are going to be showing us models, maybe some gameplay...that they have an updated roadmap...how is it ■■■■ing trolling to expect them to come through with that stuff?

 

[meganoth]

so in summary...it's not fair to judge them on their work or lack thereof...just don't say anything and eventually they will finish the game. Complain to someone else when these guys put out something like 2.5 that makes the game unplayable for a while...and certainly don't complain that they didn't bother to respond about it. good grief.
square that up with "it takes as long as it takes"...I thought that also meant that they don't want to release stuff full of bugs so they need to take their time.
It's not trolling to expect a little better by now.
The game we paid for twice is still only halfway(?) done.
So when someone like Joel says that they are going to be showing us models, maybe some gameplay...that they have an updated roadmap...how is it ■■■■ing trolling to expect them to come through with that stuff?

It is not that you said it, but that you say it on average twice a week, for 2 years now. It's the repetition that gets on peoples nerves

But to the rest of you: There is an ignore button. Hover on a forum users icon and you'll see it. It is your own decision and fault what to read and reply to and what not

 

[HammerDano]

It is not that you said it, but that you say it on average twice a week, for 2 years now. It's the repetition that gets on peoples nerves

But to the rest of you: There is an ignore button. Hover on a forum users icon and you'll see it. It is your own decision and fault what to read and reply to and what not

so all those things are true, but, you are more offended that someone points it out? That is ■■■■ing PATHETIC.

 

[meganoth]

so all those things are true, but, you are more offended that someone points it out? That is ■■■■ing PATHETIC.

Bull■■■■. I told you that I disagree with A LOT OF your conclusions and that I don't care about much about some stuff where you have strong feelings for. I told you multiple times and I don't care to repeat them every time I reply to you. Don't act as if I never told you.

I also partly agree with very few of your opinions. So it is a big mix of everything.

 

[zztong]

so all those things are true, but, you are more offended that someone points it out?

I think it is more along the lines that they recognize you have a critical view, don't share your view for a variety of reasons and perspectives, and tire of you constantly expressing it, and in some cases hijacking a conversation to express it. I have not muted (ignored) you, but if I did it would be out of being weary and not out of offense. I can admire persistence, even persistence as a technique for persuasion, but in your case it doesn't seem to be having that effect, at least not with me.

 

[Riamus]

It's not trolling to expect a little better by now.

No, it isn't. But the way you post is trolling. I've already ignored you long ago and my experience on the forum is much better for it. I check occasionally to see if you've stopped trolling and you haven't, which is what I see when I checked now and why I'm replying. You have been a broken record constantly for years now. People have repeatedly explained to you what "subject to change" means and why there are delays, but you ignore them because you just want to complain. You aren't just asking that they communicate better. Even when they do tell us stuff, you still complain that it isn't good enough. And even that wouldn't be a problem except that you do this over and over and over again and a lot of people are tired of listening to you. The fact that your posts are very often inflammatory and abusive towards either those who disagree with you or TFP, whether that is only subtly or if it is blatant, just makes it worse.

If you said something every few months about it, then that's one thing. But saying the same thing every few days or even every week is excessive. Many of us just don't feel like hearing it anymore. Give it a break. TFP isn't going to change how they do things just because you keep complaining about it. But do whatever you want. I don't need to listen and anyone else who wants to ignore you can do so as well. Maybe some day you'll go far enough to be banned. Of course, I half think you want that just so you can have something else to blame TFP for.

 

[Henrique]

Reading over the past posts until now for the prelude to each update. I had
a thought develope about 6 degees of seperation and parallel and coincidence.

1 There are two leaders, in the game, thus two differential camps of thought.
2 The most maybe not prolific, but most publically visible is The Duke.
3 The heirarchy of the real game can be traced back to two brothers.
4 Life has begun to imitate or emulate art, or the presumed story in the game.
5 So 2 definitve camps of feeling have developed, regarding the game.
6 The parallel I reference, is from a movie, about 2 brothers, that played a game,
with 2 opposing outcomes, or ideas.

The sequence was happiness..confusion......upset.......happiness.
.................Release.....what now...anticipation...Release.


Coincidentally, their sir name in the movie was also Duke. First names Randolph
and Mortimer. "Trading Places released June 8, 1983". It too was a comedy of errors
on both sides.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Randi and Morti were just having fun for 2
bucks, Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd not so much. But it had a happy ending, every
deserves one.....or two if you are greedy. In the game that will hopefully be with the
release of the next alpha.

Pay me no mind, I just had some old smoky apple-pie-shine, soooo....Yeah.
View attachment 38482

i would love to try some of that apple-pie-shine!!

 

[IzPrebuilt]

Good morning... 40 pages discussing when this will come out, when that will come out, I don't know, this whole thing is starting to get a bit annoying, don't you have other things to talk about? .... And when version 2.6 comes out, will you give the same hassle for 2.7? Use your imagination, you can talk about other interesting things in the game instead of whining so much, it's embarrassing, you already have hair on your... let's be serious

>enters forum dedicated to discussion of future 7 days to die versions
>finds discussion of future 7 days to die versions
>gets mad at discussion of future 7 days to die versions
>tells people to talk about something else other than the discussion of future 7 days to die versions in the forum for discussing future 7dtd versions
>Talks about body hair for some reason