PC v1.x Developer Diary

Status
Not open for further replies.
Roland said:
LBL = Learning about better crafting techniques and gaining actual recipes through reading articles you find out in the world is pretty believable when it comes to crafting. LBD could be pretty unbelievable in that regard. Repetition of the same skill does not often inspire new learning. All it does is strengthen the already known skill.  As for the skill of using weapons and tools it all depends on how you play. If you want to focus on min/maxing to rush your progression as quickly as possible then skillpoint shopping can certainly become nonsensical since the system does allow you to find the fastest XP-gaining activity and only focus on that to power grind skillpoints that you can then spend on unrelated skills to the activity you were doing.
Click to expand...
Well actualy our civilisation is made by LBD : how we figured out how to make for example : better patterns of swords? thanks to make a lot of them. and sometimes thanks to experimentation and luck they figured out how to make something better. Similiar system will be added into project zomboid soon. Okay what about for example... guns? Even simple things : "bechowiec" smg is good example - polish peasant done own smg which he based on owned pistol. It was pretty innovative countruction and he "figured "out just by testing stuff and hoping something will be working and he manage to make pretty solids smg.

Roland said:
No. There is nothing more or less "survival" about the two RPG progression methods. Either one can be exploited by those prone to exploitation. Sitting in your base for three days doing nothing but crafting stone axes is about as contrary to survival gameplay as you can get but people exploited the LBD of that time by doing just that all to avoid having to ever play with an inferior tool. They didn't want to start playing until they had LBD'd up their tools to max through extremely repetitive action. <shrug>
Click to expand...
Remember combine items?  yeah it was a problem but You could do this but you needed to cut trees and stones. Problems wasn't  fact that making stone axes allow you to make purple steel pickaxe but... how it  was made. Yet imagine- you need to make  or repair 100 stone pickaxe to make 1 first tier iron pickaxe. then 100 iron to make steel pickaxe. it's just simplfy why it should be much more expanded.

Roland said:
I don't know what to say Matt. We play differently and I acknowledge that. You seem to be projecting your proclivities onto everyone else. I loot POIs because scavenging is an extremely common trope in zombie movies and television series. I like to roleplay as a survivor going to POIs and finding the stuff I need to craft with. During the first couple of days I usually go to several POIs just for the kitchen loot. I don't go looking for the loot rooms or clear the whole house. I am just focused on getting cook books and a pot and some murky water and food. I'm not saying everyone plays my way but I am certainly proof that not everyone feels forced to go to loot rooms in every POI and play the game like a leveling up simulator.
Click to expand...
I don't agree about extremely common trope: 

common trope is evac/ find save zone - Dawn of the walking dead, WD, l4d2, WWZ.

Scavenging is just " way" to get to the target which is such place. usualy this place is fake one but you get what i mean. But let's say they sometimes manage to find such place : then they focus on growning food etc and literaly avoid go outside because.... well there is no reason to do that.

Well your playstyle is diffrent. Well i know that some people doing like Knife Only runs in RE4 and well i get it - they like challenge or making content on Yt 

Yet do you remember  times of WA/BO1 zombie mode ( later people mostly play alone/ friends only) - there was some rules to be "effective" : use low damage weapons, focus on shootings legs etc. because it was effective. Yet thanks to that you were able to get much more points thanks to that ; faster open map, Access to PAP, perks etc. so happend that person who weren't played effective were kicked off. because such person just wasted points. It ended that : you stick a rules and be effective or not play at all.

So: It's pretty fast to figured out that 7dtd quests are broken because of LBD that's why not using it is like you got a car as gift yet walk per few km: kinda you can do it but  using car is more effective

 
Matt115 said:
Well actualy our civilisation is made by LBD : how we figured out how to make for example : better patterns of swords? thanks to make a lot of them. and sometimes thanks to experimentation and luck they figured out how to make something better. 
Click to expand...
This is a commonly used and yet usually misused "fact".  Yes, someone will practice stuff, often with trial and error until they figure something out.  However, they don't start at the lowest skill level and practice until they can make the best thing.  They read and study and have someone teach them until they are at a certain level before they try to figure something new out.  A person with no skill can't just walk up to a forge and practice non-stop until they can make the best sword possible.  They will have learned how to use the forge and make basic swords first, through books, training, etc.  You don't just learn to make something by guessing.  If you think you can, then pick something you have no experience in, like building a vehicle from scratch.  Then try to build it without instructions.  Not only that, but try to make it better without any knowledge about it.

 
Matt115 said:
Well actualy our civilisation is made by LBD : how we figured out how to make for example : better patterns of swords?
Click to expand...


A sad day for society if swords are your idea of what our civilisation is made out of. To advance science and technology you first have to read a lot of stuff in books until you can hope to add something new. Try producing a CPU without any knowledge. You would need more than a few lifetimes to recreate that knowledge by just experimenting yourself.

Oh look, you can build a car in 7days. How would a survivor in real life go about if he wanted to build a working car? By building 100 bicycles or going into an abandoned library and checking out some books? 

Experimentation is part of science as well, sure. But unless you want to build something trivial like a pointy metal stick it saves a massive amount of time to first read, then do.

 
Riamus said:
However, they don't start at the lowest skill level and practice until they can make the best thing........You don't just learn to make something by guessing.
Click to expand...


meganoth said:
Experimentation is part of science as well, sure. But unless you want to build something trivial like a pointy metal stick it saves a massive amount of time to first read, then do.
Click to expand...


Man, I feel personally attacked by these two statements. I have lived my entire life at a low skill level and just throwing caution to the wind at everything I do. This is my wife yells at me that our house is falling apart. Even though I just "fixed it".......

 
Riamus said:
whatever he said...
Click to expand...
but if you perk into intellect enuff, you may invent something better than the status quo

what i mean is if you are smart enough and persistent enough you can do better than anyone has before. it takes learning, and practice,  and passion. and stacks of iron and clay and steel and the damn crucible.

a bit of an allegory for life in general i suppose...

 
Last edited by a moderator:
NukemDed said:
but if you perk into intellect enuff, you may invent something better than the status quo

what i mean is if you are smart enough and persistent enough you can do better than anyone has before. it takes learning, and practice,  and passion. and stacks of iron and clay and steel and the damn crucible.

a bit of an allegory for life in general i suppose...
Click to expand...
Yes... but it doesn't happen by starting at zero and repeating the same thing over and over again.  You are going to first learn something by reading or being taught in order to get your level of knowledge up to where it needs to be before you try to invent something better or improve upon something.  If you know nothing about making a weapon, you aren't going to be able to do so without learning how to do so... other than primitive weapons, anyhow.  If you don't know anything about electronics, you're not going to just start playing around with components and figure out how to make lights and other electronic items.  There are some things you might manage to figure out by just messing around and trying different things without having any clue what you're doing, but they'll pretty much be limited to the basic (primitive) items.  Anything else requires you to learn to make the stuff first.  That doesn't happen by making something over and over a thousand times.  It comes from reading or being taught by someone.

Once you know how to make something, that is when you can work to improve it.  It's one thing to say that a hybrid system of learning by magazines/books and then practicing to increase the tier of the item is more realistic.  But it's entirely incorrect to say that LBD is more realistic except if you're talking solely about the most primitive items.

 
meganoth said:
Experimentation is part of science as well, sure. But unless you want to build something trivial like a pointy metal stick it saves a massive amount of time to first read, then do.
Click to expand...


That's the way I look at it.

While it is true that experimentation and research (which you might consider "doing" but it is more than that) led to every breakthrough, that's not what's happening in the game. Characters are rediscovering existing knowledge. Learning through study (reading) would be quite apropos. Some learning through practice (doing) would also be apropos. Learning through instruction would also be apropos if you found somebody to teach you what they know.

There are lots of aspects to learning and I think it is reasonable the game focused on rediscovery of existing knowledge.

 
Toilet Pistol said:
Man, I feel personally attacked by these two statements. I have lived my entire life at a low skill level and just throwing caution to the wind at everything I do. This is my wife yells at me that our house is falling apart. Even though I just "fixed it".......
Click to expand...


At least she is LBDing up her capacity to yell at you...

 
Grandpa Minion said:
 



Now that enough time has passed with Version 1.1... i am submitting the order for the current build to be moved to 1.2 STORMS BREWING branch for all players to enjoy.

EXPECTATION:

A) Version 1.1 moved to Version 1.2 STORMS BREWING branch immediately

B) All players STEAM, XBOX AND PS5 TO BE immediately combined to one branch to increase overall population of all servers 

C) An update notice sent to this forum notifying everyone when this well happen

As an active long time player of 7d2d with over 25000 hours logged... i hereby place this order effective immediately.

View attachment 32752
Click to expand...
Just wondering, how much of this "time" is actual play time and not sitting in God mode for days on end?

 
Last edited:
meganoth said:
A sad day for society if swords are your idea of what our civilisation is made out of. To advance science and technology you first have to read a lot of stuff in books until you can hope to add something new. Try producing a CPU without any knowledge. You would need more than a few lifetimes to recreate that knowledge by just experimenting yourself.

Oh look, you can build a car in 7days. How would a survivor in real life go about if he wanted to build a working car? By building 100 bicycles or going into an abandoned library and checking out some books? 

Experimentation is part of science as well, sure. But unless you want to build something trivial like a pointy metal stick it saves a massive amount of time to first read, then do.
Click to expand...
Pretty simple - you can read as long as you want but without doing in reality you know nothing. My dad is bus mechanics - sometime they have new +-20 yo guy who have theoretical knowledge but can't do anything in practice. While there is a guy  who doesn't have too much of theoretical knowledge yet he can repair stuff without problem thanks to doing it since 80s. So you can read a lot about making guns etc. and still know nothing useful. Plus consider which books are popular -  20 diffrent books about weaponry used during ww 2 pretty likly won't have good enough information to allow you make a Sten. Yeah : you can find many "handbooks" but most of them will be pretty not practical for you (Yep try to Repair Deer tractor) or too hard to find it ( i wanted to find in my city good medical book about muscles. guess what - nothing)

Problem with 

abandoned library and checking out some books? 
Click to expand...
is that... in 7dtd every POI is dungeon. So kinda kill sense of checking library?  like : you can visit it and find nothing useful then just clear random house and you will what you want. so in 7dtd there is no sense in "picking" which poi is more value and search for it but search as many POI's in this same time: it will be more effective and that's a problem.

In older versions a lot of POI's had only "Defend" value

 
Matt115 said:
Pretty simple - you can read as long as you want but without doing in reality you know nothing. My dad is bus mechanics - sometime they have new +-20 yo guy who have theoretical knowledge but can't do anything in practice. While there is a guy  who doesn't have too much of theoretical knowledge yet he can repair stuff without problem thanks to doing it since 80s. So you can read a lot about making guns etc. and still know nothing useful. Plus consider which books are popular -  20 diffrent books about weaponry used during ww 2 pretty likly won't have good enough information to allow you make a Sten. Yeah : you can find many "handbooks" but most of them will be pretty not practical for you (Yep try to Repair Deer tractor) or too hard to find it ( i wanted to find in my city good medical book about muscles. guess what - nothing)
Click to expand...
I mean cool they’ve mastered the art of repairing and you’re telling me they never looked at a book, no one gave them any instruction? Can they build a plane from scratch now? After all sounds like they’ve mastered building cars should be at plane level right now. How long did it take them to figure out putting together an engine without knowing what parts were needed and the order they go in? How long do you think it would take to put together an engine if you had a book telling you the parts and steps?

 
Old Crow said:
Nope, not at all. But that certainly isn't the next alpha now, is it?
Click to expand...
Not Alpha anymore. The new UI is set for Update 2 in Q2 2025.

For someone who's been here a lot, you seem a bit out of the loop. Hope everything is alright. I think I see you on X also, helping others by commenting on their posts... Very nice of you.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Space4Ace said:
Not Alpha anymore. The new UI is set for Update 2 in Q2 2025.

For someone who's been here a lot, you seem a bit out of the loop. Hope everything is alright. I think I see you on X also, helping others by commenting on their posts... Very nice of you.
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's me. I just like calling TFP out on bull@%$#. XD

 
Space4Ace said:
Not Alpha anymore. The new UI is set for Update 2 in Q2 2025.

For someone who's been here a lot, you seem a bit out of the loop. Hope everything is alright. I think I see you on X also, helping others by commenting on their posts... Very nice of you.
Click to expand...




Old Crow said:
Yeah, that's me. I just like calling TFP out on bull@%$#. XD
Click to expand...
If  I understand you two correctly, you both use 'X'?  Any way either of you could help someone going blind you learn how to use that platform?  I can't see well any more, and would like it if someone could help me figure out how to post there.

I don't have anything to share on the whole back and forth of in-game learning, as I am still learning the game and don't really know how they could develop a better system, however, I do know a thing or two about learning how to do a thing.

Back some time ao, I had to learn how to master a skill that I had no previous experience with.  I went to that place a nobody, and ended up the man, which is to say, I out-performed everybody else that was performing that particular task, all of whom had experience doing 'it'.  No one helped me, and there was no time to read up on the topic at hand, as my very first efforts were mere minutes before my second attempt, and that just minutes before my third (and final) attempt.  My third attempt, I set a record.

I don't know to this day, weather that record was just a local record, or a (Guiness book of) world record type of thing, but I rather think that, because of the way everyone else was reacting, it was more than just a simple, local thing.

Some people, myself included, can just walk up and almost instantly do something they have never done before, and do it better than people that have been competing in that activity before, without any experience, nore applicable training, book learning, or instruction.  All the folks that are claiming that cannot happen are mistaken.  If folks want to know more, and what this thing I did was, I'll be glad to tell, in exchange for help tracking down the official records, and perhaps getting the present location (if it still exists), of the proof.  I should have kept the proof, but at the time I didn't realize that what I had done was at all 'special', because it was my first time, and I did it rather easily, so how good could it really have been?  I wish I had known then, what I know now.

 
WarMongerian said:
If  I understand you two correctly, you both use 'X'?  Any way either of you could help someone going blind you learn how to use that platform?  I can't see well any more, and would like it if someone could help me figure out how to post there.

I don't have anything to share on the whole back and forth of in-game learning, as I am still learning the game and don't really know how they could develop a better system, however, I do know a thing or two about learning how to do a thing.

Back some time ao, I had to learn how to master a skill that I had no previous experience with.  I went to that place a nobody, and ended up the man, which is to say, I out-performed everybody else that was performing that particular task, all of whom had experience doing 'it'.  No one helped me, and there was no time to read up on the topic at hand, as my very first efforts were mere minutes before my second attempt, and that just minutes before my third (and final) attempt.  My third attempt, I set a record.

I don't know to this day, weather that record was just a local record, or a (Guiness book of) world record type of thing, but I rather think that, because of the way everyone else was reacting, it was more than just a simple, local thing.

Some people, myself included, can just walk up and almost instantly do something they have never done before, and do it better than people that have been competing in that activity before, without any experience, nore applicable training, book learning, or instruction.  All the folks that are claiming that cannot happen are mistaken.  If folks want to know more, and what this thing I did was, I'll be glad to tell, in exchange for help tracking down the official records, and perhaps getting the present location (if it still exists), of the proof.  I should have kept the proof, but at the time I didn't realize that what I had done was at all 'special', because it was my first time, and I did it rather easily, so how good could it really have been?  I wish I had known then, what I know now.
Click to expand...
Wait you’re asking people to show you how to use X just LBD that. You’ve been posting here you should know how to post there without any instruction 😂

Look I’m not saying it’s impossible, if it was the term prodigy wouldn’t exist, just what makes more sense. I know that no matter how many stone tools I make it isn’t going to teach me how to put a working forge together. Yeah there might be a small percentage of the population that can but do you really believe a lot could? I would say the existence of schools proves otherwise and your amazingness is the exception to the rule.

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top