PC V1.2 b22 EXP (updated to b24)

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Indeed, discussed to death on this forum and elsewhere because it was an extremely controversial change which broke unique playstyles and forces everyone down the same path of opening mailboxes to find magazines they don't need. The reason it is so controversial and still being discussed to death is because it is widely accepted by long-term players this was a bad change. The learn-by-doing system was better in every way and some combination of the two would work best. 


Long-term player here, not accepting you as my mouth-piece 😉.

I don't like the heavy reliance on perk boosting for magazines, though I have to concede that for most players this is actually the best balancing of crafting we had for a long time. Whatever, most survival games have that boring learn-by-doing system where you are on a rail. I am so pleased this game is different (in so many ways).

 
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Each year? Really? That's pretty generous. Maybe every 2-3 years.


Are you saying alphas were only every 2-3 years? Probably not, so you seem to be saying the changes of one alpha didn't amount to enough for a new game. For 1.0 I would agree, but I suppose their effort to get it on console did bind their human resources. For alphas before that I would disagree as there were always lots of changes in it that influenced gameplay. If someone doesn't like a change it probably doesn't feel like new and fresh though, so I can imagine that for you it feels more like 2-3 years.

 
I just played two BMs with two other players with it at 64 and the reduced number of zombies was not missed. We had plenty to kill.
This stuff is not locked in stone. As hardware changes or other optimizations happen, it can be changed.


Things work so smoothly with just a few players.

Is there ANY change, at some point, to make the multiplayer server work better with more players? Like 30-40+ players or even more, as hardware gets better and better.
I know how demanding such thing is for servers. CPUs churning at max load, but could there be some kind of holy grail optimization that would solve everything? Plenty of CPU cores available these days, maybe optimize multithreading or something?
I don't even know if this is in your hands, or something for Unity-engine devs.

 
The 64 setting is still there, but the game was already clamping that number with multiple players. Now what the game does with that number is more aggressive. I just played two BMs with two other players with it at 64 and the reduced number of zombies was not missed. We had plenty to kill.

This stuff is not locked in stone. As hardware changes or other optimizations happen, it can be changed.


What you are saying is that someone who wants the previous amount of zombies in his specific circumstances just needs to increase that setting, right?

In other words, the actual number should not be seen as the number of zombies one will get in all circumstances, though increasing it will always also increase the number of zombies someone will get.

 
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It means when the TV is on, it plays the sound. Yes, some of our descriptions could be better.
Ok. I have found a TV that plays the sound while playing 1.2 b25. It appears that the screen needs to be lit and also flashing. When I played 1.2 b22 I ran into a TV that was lit but not flashing and the sound wasn't playing.

As for the person that claims everybody thinks learn by doing is superior, especially long-term players - I don't know. It might be. I first played this game with A19 and didn't like it and didn't play it again until A21, where now I consider it one of the best games I've ever played, if not the best. 

I have played a mod that utilizes learn-by-doing and I also played A16 for a little while. Learn by doing was such a small factor that it never really grabbed my attention.

There are things that have grabbed my attention that I am familiar with from other survival games. Why doesn't food spoil? How come extreme weather doesn't have a much more negative impact on my wellbeing? I think that's a big one, but I've never seen anyone complain about that. That's a much bigger immersion killer than not being able to fill empty water jars. 

There is such vitriol behind the removal of learn by doing and empty jars that the reason for such anger should be obvious...but it's not. I have to come up with alternative theories for the anger to make sense. 

I think the reasons why so many people are mad, seeing that no one seems to care that strong weather doesn't hurt enough, is because learn by doing and water jars made the game easier. In A16 I would have 50 fresh waters by day 2 and learn by doing is kind of mindless. Not that searching for magazines is rocket science, but it does require more time, effort and thought. You gotta know where to look. You gotta know what to spec into. 

Making this game easy sucks. I am very excited for the new weather overhaul. The cold will make me freeze. The heat will make me sick. And the burnt forest will make me COUGH! I wasn't expecting that one. That's a good one. Respiratory restrictions! Stamina reductions! Very cool. 

So, I don't believe any of you that claim that the lack of water jars and learn-by-doing kills the immersion, because you never complained about the weather. You don't care about immersion or what "makes sense". You just care about things being easier. 

 
This stuff is not locked in stone. As hardware changes or other optimizations happen, it can be changed.


This statement is a bit concerning, to be honest.  Yes, as long as TFP is around and willing to do updates to this game, they can change things based on hardware changes in the future.  However, once either TFP is no longer around (not saying anything negative here, but eventually all developers will close shop) or they don't want to make changes to an older game anymore, then it will no longer get such a change.  It would be better to have the option available and then you don't need to change it.  Even if people aren't able to actually count zombies during BM without looking through the logs afterwards doesn't mean they want fewer zombies.  I understand the need to reduce numbers if people have older computers that can't handle it.  But that should simply be an option that people can choose for their games.  Let those who can handle larger numbers of zombies have them.  Just my opinion.  I never set it that high myself, so it doesn't affect me, but I don't see any reason to limit the zombies for people who want them to be that high.  It is optional, after all.  People who set it that high should understand the risk of having a lower frame rate, so it's on them, not the game, if things don't work well.

Add back learn-by-doing, everyone agrees this was the superior system and the magazine system is deeply flawed. 


No, not "everyone."  As you comment in your second post, this is a debated topic, which means a lot of people don't agree with you.  If that's true, then "everyone" clearly doesn't agree.  And you can't even say that all players who have played from the early alphas agrees because there are plenty of such players here who don't like LBD.

LBD is a flawed system.  Yes, there are people who like that system.  But it's still a flawed system.  It forces people to spam an action over and over just to advance.  It doesn't take skill to spam an action (unless the action itself requires skill).  All it takes is time to do so.  One of the reasons a lot of people like it is they can easily set up a script to do the action repeatedly to very quickly advance in the skill or ability and have max skill or ability without any actual effort.  But for everyone else, it means spending a lot of time doing that action over and over in order to be able to get better.  A lot of people do not like being forced to spam an action repeatedly in order to advance.

Note that LBD is still in the game, just not for crafting.  Yes, it's the minimal RPG XP version of it, where you do stuff to get experience and then use that "general XP" to unlock perks to improve your ability in a certain area instead of having "individual XP" for each thing.  But it is still there.  You can't get better at farming unless you do stuff to build up XP and then use that to unlock LOTL perks.  No, it isn't tied solely to farming actions.  You can get that experience through all actions and then choose to use it for farming improvements.  That's actually providing player choice that Skyrim style LBD does not offer.  Where the game no longer makes use of LBD is crafting.  For that, you need magazines now.

As far as magazines, that is different from before.  That's true.  I can't say they are a great option.  They have their own problems.  But lets look at A20, before magazines were added.  How did you learn to make new things?  It wasn't LBD.  You had to find schematics (the same way you still do with mods now).  But it was easier because you only needed one copy to be able to craft it.  And if you found a second, the next person in the party could also craft it.  No need to advance one player at a time.  That is the change, not really LBD to magazines but schematics to magazines.  Of course, that was just from A20, but many people who are crying about magazines and LBD are using A20 as their comparison.  And most of the LBD debate started with the introduction of magazines after A20 rather than before A20 (or at least, most debate previously had died out before A20).  For those who preferred an older style, then yes, that's an issue with LBD, though most of that debate died out before A20 and only resumed after magazines were added, which suggests that for many players, they were fine with schematics and just don't like magazines, meaning it's less about LBD and more about magazines.

Schematics were nice.  They let you learn things in a random order, allowing you to have a different game each time.  But you could have really horrible RNG and never see a specific schematic you want until late game, if ever.  Magazines remove the RNG aspect of never being able to find a schematic, but everything is now unlocked in the same order every game.  That makes each game less interesting because you don't get any changes between games.  That is definitely a negative effect of magazines.  Magazines also require a lot of looking around to find enough of them to unlock stuff, which can be a pain.  Though with schematics, you still had to spend time looking around in order to find the specific ones you wanted.  At least with magazines, you have a good idea where to look for a specific magazine, where schematics were far more random and you just had to look everywhere until you found what you wanted.

Magazines aren't a great option and given the pros and cons of schematics vs magazines, I think schematics are actually better.  You might never see a given schematic if your luck is bad, but you get variety in your games.  But that doesn't mean that I think LBD is the way to go for crafting.  I never think LBD is the way to go for crafting in any game.  And for every other ability in a game, I prefer a general XP option rather than the Skyrim option of spamming something to upgrade that specific ability.

 
My main issue with the magazines, as I've posted before, is that they are everywhere. Every container you open has a magazine shoved into it. Some make sense. A mailbox? Sure, no problem. A small medical pile that shows nothing but a few pill bottles and a bandage? Nope, there's a magazine shoehorned in there as well. I get they need to be able to be found, and I guess they didn't want to turn library and book store POIs into hot zones like how they were back when schematics were still a thing, but I'm not a fan. Couple that with how overall cookie-cutter the loot has become anyway and it just bores me. They've went too far IMO trying to take the RNG out of the game. I get it can be frustrating at time, but that's part of the experience to me. I don't wanna know what I'm gonna get at the start of each game if I loot the same type of containers in the same order. Zombie loot bags have been this way for a while, and now with magazines it seems all loot is the same. No beuno. RWG is now following suit in this trend as well, which is a major bummer.

Hunting schematics out of themed loot crates instead of the dungeon style reward chests while wandering around in a world I legitimately had no idea where anything was at was the peak. Now by default I always spawn the same biome, likely near a trader with a quest that makes sure I know exactly where he is, able to just loot random places to find things as most POIs can give you the same types of loot now. It's just meh.

 
LBD is a flawed system.  Yes, there are people who like that system.  But it's still a flawed system.  It forces people to spam an action over and over just to advance.
There are always going to be players that spam in order to level up for leveling up’s sake. They are never interested in just playing the game in a natural way and leveling up slowly and organically as they do normal daily tasks and in-game survival related objectives.  
 

LBD just gave them a larger variety of tasks to spam to grind up a variety of different stats. Almost everyone who complains about LBR mentions spending hours spamming mailboxes and how boring that one activity they are “forced” to do is. 
 

Spamming is just what they do and they won’t adapt away from doing it and that does make LBD superior to LBR because if you feel compelled to spam stuff, LBD offers so much more spam opportunities. 
 

I only ever open a mailbox when I’m looting a POI that has one and somehow some way I gradually level up as I play. Yet others say over and over again that players are forced to open hundreds of mailboxes in order to get anywhere. 

 
Are you saying alphas were only every 2-3 years? Probably not, so you seem to be saying the changes of one alpha didn't amount to enough for a new game. For 1.0 I would agree, but I suppose their effort to get it on console did bind their human resources. For alphas before that I would disagree as there were always lots of changes in it that influenced gameplay. If someone doesn't like a change it probably doesn't feel like new and fresh though, so I can imagine that for you it feels more like 2-3 years.


Alpha 20 was released in 2022. Alpha 22 was released in 2024. Yeah, that's about 2 years.

 
Pardon my ignorance m…If u played with 64 max alive how was there reduced zombies.  ?
It sounds to me that he was testing that the new feature worked to override the 64 max alive, and instead give 30 active zombies, scaled up in gamestage to match what 64 zombies would be like.

What you are saying is that someone who wants the previous amount of zombies in his specific circumstances just needs to increase that setting, right?

In other words, the actual number should not be seen as the number of zombies one will get in all circumstances, though increasing it will always also increase the number of zombies someone will get.
That’s not how I read this post.



A 30 zombie cap is a 30 zombie cap. Setting the maxAlive to anything over that won’t mean more zombies anymore, assuming the players are together. It will mean harder zombies, but not more of them.

 
You just care about things being easier.
A16 was much harder than current versions, particularly horde night (assuming you didn't cheese it.)  Modern horde nights are just mindless xp grinding unless you intentionally make a bad base (and even then, the zombies will pretty quickly turn it into a good one once they damage some blocks.)

Water may have been easier (though not really, water isn't an issue after a day or so in the modern version), food was harder (meat was less plentiful), POIs were harder because they were much less predictable.

Death was much harder.  Building Wellness took a long time, and dying reduced it significantly.

Sure, 7D2D doesn't exactly have challenging survival mechanics, but I honestly find most survival mechanics rather quickly become a tedious grind, so I'm not really interested in the base game adding them (though I'm all for people making mods that add them.)

But my primary interest in the game is building, so I probably have much different priorities than you do.  Incidentally, this is why I dislike Learn By Reading, because it forces me to spend time I'd rather be mining/building going out looting to get magazines so that my crafting skills aren't absolutely worthless.

 
Before I report this as a bug, I'm curious if this is normal or an issue.  I'm on b25, never looked at this previously.

With a full set of farmer armor, where the lowest level is a level 1 hat, it says I have the set bonus but it says "Gain 0% more health and stamina from food."  Should a full set limited to level 1 really be 0%?  Should it be above 0?

Full set is level 4 outfit, level 4 boots, level 5 gloves, level 1 hat.

 
I just got done with a 3+ hour play session and I gotta say that the amount of zombies that spawn now during the day in the pine forest is significant and it is GREAT! 

 
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