PC V1.2 b22 EXP (updated to b24)

[Riamus]

HELLO,

   Over the last couple of weeks i have given alot of thought over logout loot exploit In my mind i just can not Phantom how all those players...

which is just about everyone that plays complains about cheaters, dupers, hackers or in this case players who abuse a game mechanic to loot. I feel that continue allowing this exploit the game should just make duping legal as i really dont see any difference in the two. People who are doing the exploit which is happening on all most every pve and pvp server really have no right to complain about anyone else who is abusing game mechanics or compain "that guy is cheating".

   The problem with this exploit of the game mechanic surprises me how many people are doing it, well over 75% of players who play this game i imagine. So once again why do these same people complain about dupers and such when they are abusing a game mechanic themselves?  If you are one of those people who are doing this exploit than your no better than another duper or cheater.

Over 75%?  Doubtful.  Perhaps if you are considering anyone who may have done it on a rare occasion, but not if you're only counting people who do it regularly.  I assume you are referring to being able to log out after collecting the loot from a quest and before turning it it and then the quest starts over again?  If it's some other logout loot exploit, then maybe the numbers would be different, though still probably nowhere near 75%.

As far as this "exploit," it is a difficult situation.  Either you allow the quest to be restarted, allowing people to exploit it if they want to (though they'll still need to at least kill everything in the loot room again and anything between the quest start marker and being able to reach the loot room), or you prevent restarting a quest that was started if you log out.  The problem there is that if the game crashes or someone loses connection to the server in the middle of a quest, they can't do the quest anymore.  That is not a great option either.  Yes, you can get a new quest, but that means going back to a trader who could be a long distance from you.

I think the current ability to restart a quest is best.  If people want to exploit the game, that is up to them.  Let people play how they want to play.  This game is not really a PVP game, though it is possible to play it that way, so how other people play isn't really affecting your own game.  This is true for most exploits that aren't serious problems, such as nerd poling.  Now, if you are on a PVP server and someone is using an exploit, then others do have the right to complain to the admin of the server and the admin can choose to warn or ban that player because exploits do impact other players in that case.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

I think the current ability to restart a quest is best.  If people want to exploit the game, that is up to them.  Let people play how they want to play.  

This is the exact thing im referring to. Most players who complain about cheating, duping or w/e seem to think  its ok when they exploit a game mechanic. In my 25000+ hours i've heard this story a million times... To me what it sounds more like your saying is "since i do it means its ok to do."

 

[DocRussel]

Why is it a problem?  Does your game suffer because someone you don't even know does something for their entertainment that goes against your will?  The purpose of video games is entertainment, nothing more.  I really scratch my head over the notion that everyone else must play the game to any one player's standards.

My sister plays Skyrim a lot and puts it on the easiest difficulty and then adds mods to make it even easier (infinite carry weight, etc).  I play on the hardest difficulty.  Our games have no affect on the other, we just entertain ourselves as we see fit.  Neither of us have any desire to change how the other plays.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

Why is it a problem? 

 

[DocRussel]

So in other words, there is no problem for you if you don't do it.

 

[Riamus]

This is the exact thing im referring to. Most players who complain about cheating, duping or w/e seem to think  its ok whenView attachment 32932 they exploit a game mechanic. In my 25000+ hours i've heard this story a million times... To me what it sounds more like your saying is "since i do it means its ok to do."

Heh.  I was waiting for you to show that image.  You seem to think it is important when you post something.  It isn't like anyone believes that is actual play time.  Considering you showed it the end of September and are now 990 hours more (41 days without pause), that means you'd have the game running almost 12 hours per day every day for the past 12 weeks.  That wouldn't be play time, but instead sitting at a menu (paused) or on the loading screen or similar.  In any case, not all exploits or cheats are the same.  Some are minor and some are major.  There is also nothing wrong with people complaining about something they find particularly annoying even if they use some form of exploit or cheat themselves.

View attachment 32933

Chopping through a wall is not going to change.  There are POI that are easy to reach the loot room in.  Oh well.  This game doesn't exactly have a lot to do once you have the best stuff.  Skipping everything to reach the end is kind of dumb.  Though if you're looking at a dedicated server and PVP, it can make sense for people to do this when they first join the server because everyone else who wants to kill them will already have the best stuff and they'll never have a chance if they can't get the best stuff right away.  Even then, they won't have the perks so will still be weaker.

Besides, you aren't going to get the best gear right away in the forest.  And once the weather update comes, the harder biomes won't be feasible to go to right away until you get the equipment or mods needed to survive there, so people are going to be stuck in the forest with its low level loot for at least a little while.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

Besides, you aren't going to get the best gear right away in the forest.  And once the weather update comes, the harder biomes won't be feasible to go to right away until you get the equipment or mods needed to survive there, so people are going to be stuck in the forest with its low level loot for at least a little while.

I think your taking my post the wrong way dude...  im not worried about the pimps fixing this exploit as ive already fixed it on our server. If you go back and read my post it was referring to people who complain about cheaters, hackers or w/e but than turn around and are more welling to do the same by exploiting. I call those type of people two faced.

 

[zztong]

Over the last couple of weeks i have given alot of thought over logout loot exploit In my mind i just can not Phantom how all those players...

I'd like to know how this exploit is accomplished and what is gained. I'm having trouble understanding the urgency. If as you say 75% of players are using it, and you've patched your server against it, then it must not be a secret and it would be safe to describe here, right?

 

[Grandpa Minion]

I'd like to know how this exploit is accomplished and what is gained. 

The problem with the exploit is its so easy to do... a player well activate a quest than clear the loot than log out, only to log back in to reactivate it. Repeating it over and over as much as they like exploiting the quest for as much loot and books as they want. Its basically on the same scale as duping / cheating. 

 

[Riamus]

I think your taking my post the wrong way dude...  im not worried about the pimps fixing this exploit as ive already fixed it on our server. If you go back and read my post it was referring to people who complain about cheaters, hackers or w/e but than turn around and are more welling to do the same by exploiting. I call those type of people two faced.

I responded to that... there are different levels of exploits or cheats and some people might be fine with certain ones but not with others.  There isn't anything wrong with people complaining about people using specific cheats or exploits.  That being said, if it doesn't actually impact someone (e.g. in a coop game), I don't think people should even care since it isn't impacting their own game.

I'd like to know how this exploit is accomplished and what is gained. I'm having trouble understanding the urgency. If as you say 75% of players are using it, and you've patched your server against it, then it must not be a secret and it would be safe to describe here, right?

Unless I'm mistaken, it's what I mentioned above... people start a quest, grab the loot room, log out, log in, start the quest again, repeat.  With certain POI, it's easier as the loot room doesn't take much effort to reach.  This is basically just an "extended" version of where people will loot a POI and then start the quest to loot it a second time.  This just lets people keep doing the same quest as long as they want.  Pointless, if you ask me.  Why play a game if you're not going to actually play the game?  But some people feel they have to be the best or fastest or at the end game as soon as possible.  Since it doesn't affect me if they play that way, I don't care that they do.

Like I said above, there are valid reasons for letting a quest be started again after logging out.  A crash or loss of connection to the host/server would prevent being able to do the quest if you are in the middle of it at the time.  Still, it would probably be easy enough to make it so that you resume a quest if you're disconnected or crash instead of being kicked out of it, or have a timer before you can activate it again similar to the timer if two people in a party take the same quest and you have to wait before you can do the second person's quest.  That would remove the exploit without impacting regular players.

 

[zztong]

The problem with the exploit is its so easy to do... a player well activate a quest than clear the loot than log out, only to log back in to reactivate it. Repeating it over and over as much as they like exploiting the quest for as much loot and books as they want. Its basically on the same scale as duping / cheating. 

Please forgive my ignorance as I've been playing solo for a year or so. Didn't there used to be a delay before the quest could be reactivated? I seem to remember having to wait a couple hours before I could activate the quest again.

I'm not worried about the pimps fixing this exploit as ive already fixed it on our server

How does your fix work?

Still, it would probably be easy enough to make it so that you resume a quest if you're disconnected or crash instead of being kicked out of it, or have a timer before you can activate it again similar to the timer if two people in a party take the same quest and you have to wait before you can do the second person's quest.

Oh, maybe the timer I remember was when multiple players were working together.

I would point out that unplugging you network cable would time out your network connection leading to a disconnect.

 

[Riamus]

Please forgive my ignorance as I've been playing solo for a year or so. Didn't there used to be a delay before the quest could be reactivated? I seem to remember having to wait a couple hours before I could activate the quest again.

Oh, maybe the timer I remember was when multiple players were working together.

I would point out that unplugging you network cable would time out your network connection leading to a disconnect.

Yeah, the timer is triggered on completing a quest, not starting a quest.  So in MP, if you complete a quest with one player, you can't start it right away with another player.  I don't think it's possible to get the same quest on the same day with only one player, so it doesn't impact you in single player.  If a timer was set when starting a quest and only removed when completing the quest or when cancelling the quest, it could be set to something like 2 in-game hours (or whatever amount makes sense) and you couldn't restart the quest within that time period.  It wouldn't stop you from logging out to restart it, but it would mean you'd have a 2 hour delay before you could do so, making it kind of pointless for exploiting.  By ending that timer when completing a quest or when cancelling the quest (or when it expires), you still allow multiplayer to go to the quest again using the current timer method without this new timer affecting it.  There is still a downside to it, though.  If you do lose connection or the game crashes, you'll have to wait for whatever amount of time remains on that timer before you can start the quest again.  That will be more frustrating if it happens right when you're starting the quest, but will be less of an issue if you're further into the quest.

Still, I think this isn't really that big of a problem.  If people want to do it, so be it.  The game is (normally) not a competitive game, so for more players it isn't an issue.  And if people are doing it, you can just choose not to play with them, or see if the host or server admin will ban the player if it really bothers you.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

How does your fix work?

over the last many years ive playd this game i have never released a mod but i feel so strongly against people doing this exploit im working on the mod to make public if anyone wants it.

 

[vergilsparda]

I think you are getting a stealth boost in that the light level drops (at least during the day), but the sound aspect is interesting. While it might mask your own sounds, the lightning itself might wake up sleepers, wouldn't it? I'm not sure which way to lean on that.

Hm, it's possible! That would be a very interesting mechanic, even if it were as simple as turning a previously stationary sleeper into a wandering one, or at least the chance to. Imagine trying to stealth kill a sleeper and it gets up and starts wandering around (but doesn't see you)... the heart attack I'd have!!

What I meant was more along the lines of everywhere outside of POIs, like when you're sneaking around or just trying to avoid zombies in the wilderness. Too many times have I been set upon by the likes of Yo or Steve because I dared to chop trees or mine ore (five-ten blocks underground with only a small hole to the surface) on a rainy day

Obviously in snow storms and fog it would be less when it comes to sound, but more to visual (they'd hear and investigate, but might not see you right away, like it is currently but slightly boosted in general for everyone, regardless of armor or level or perks). In rainstorms it could be more stealth to sound than visuals, because you can still see people moving in a rainstorm, but it's very hard to hear when the rainstorms are quite loud (good for making a little bit of noise).

I just really like the idea of more intricate stealth mechanics, is all, and I'm campaigning for all the people who have been taken unawares by zombies they couldn't hear in a rainstorm (it's me, probably literally only me)

 

[Grandpa Minion]

Still, I think this isn't really that big of a problem.  If people want to do it, so be it.  The game is (normally) not a competitive game

The thing here what your really saying is it isn't a problem for you.. For players who play multiplayer which now includes crossplay its a huge probelm. Generally. anyone who does play multiplayer or crossplatform wants a fair and balanced game reguardless if its pve or pvp. After posting the fix on forum and nexxus ive received alot of dms from people thanking me for releasing the mod as the issue obviously was effecting their servers to.  

 

[ProlificPoultry]

The 64 setting is still there, but the game was already clamping that number with multiple players. Now what the game does with that number is more aggressive. I just played two BMs with two other players with it at 64 and the reduced number of zombies was not missed. We had plenty to kill.

This stuff is not locked in stone. As hardware changes or other optimizations happen, it can be changed.

I just played a horde night, both vanilla and with my mod that makes the hordes double the size and I felt the lack of zombies. My gamestage was 40 but boosted to 80? because of the change and with my mod it should have been like 40-50 zombies. I only got 30 and thought my game was bugged. And even going into vanilla, a day 7000 horde was 30 zombies. 
 

So, as other people have been saying, why not just leave the option in the game for 64 still functioning like it will spawn 64 zombies? Why the @%$# would it be capped at 30, if you can set it to 64? And why not have it say in the settings “count doesn’t increase zombies past 30, just increases gamestage” What’s more insulting is 30 isn’t even an option in the settings. It’s 32, and 24. And also why couldn’t they clarify in the patch notes that it is now capped. Or leave that @%$# in the experimental version. It’s @%$#ing deceptive. Why does it have to be so cryptic? 
 

And having it be for performance is such @%$# too. Again, just leave the 64 max zombies setting alone. If people are struggling with performance then that is on them to turn the settings down. 
 

I have been playing this game for 10 years next february and never has anything else felt like such a @%$# right in my face. Even when I was playing on a piece of @%$# macbook I would turn that @%$# up to the max zombies and this was alpha 10. We’re in 1.2 and they decide to pull this crap? Such @%$#.

Now, with all that being said… please tell me that there is a way to tweak this in the xml’s. The xml patch that my mod does with the gamestage xml has stopped working because of this but I haven’t noticed any changes in the gamestages xml. And the server config still has the setting for 64 max zombies. I’m out of ideas for how to bypass this right now so some help would be appreciated unless it’s just hard coded into the game now. 

 

[meganoth]

So, as other people have been saying, why not just leave the option in the game for 64 still functioning like it will spawn 64 zombies? Why the @%$# would it be capped at 30, if you can set it to 64? And why not have it say in the settings “count doesn’t increase zombies past 30, just increases gamestage” What’s more insulting is 30 isn’t even an option in the settings. It’s 32, and 24. And also why couldn’t they clarify in the patch notes that it is now capped. Or leave that @%$# in the experimental version. It’s @%$#ing deceptive. Why does it have to be so cryptic? 

I'll do some guessing here to answer your questions: I would assume that TFP wants to observe how players react to the new limits and whether they solve their problems on console or not. Because console has no experimental at all this limit needs to be observed and tested in a stable version (making stable the new experimental on console ).

Nothing is set in stone so they didn't change the 64 setting nor added any text that explains how it really works.

All changes in experimentals that are not revoked ultimately surface in a stable version as well, so I don't see how "leaving" it in an experimental could help you.

 

[Javabean867]

Even with the max of 30 zambs I still see some just standing still during hoard night.

What I wouldn't be against is increasing the difficulty of the zombies.

 

[khzmusik]

Unless I'm mistaken, it's what I mentioned above... people start a quest, grab the loot room, log out, log in, start the quest again, repeat. 

I hope they don't patch this out, because sometimes clear quests bug. The quest "thinks" there are more zombies to clear, but there are no red dots, there is no yellow icon telling you where the last clear area is, and exploring the entire POI reveals nothing.

In that case, the only thing I've been able to do (in single player) is to quit the game and start it again. This restarts the quest, and the second time I am able to clear it.

It doesn't happen very often, and might even be a bug in specific POIs, but the alternative is to just fail the quest.

I didn't report the bug because I couldn't reproduce it, and it only happened once in about a dozen hours of playing 1.2.

 

[ProlificPoultry]

I'll do some guessing here to answer your questions: I would assume that TFP wants to observe how players react to the new limits and whether they solve their problems on console or not. Because console has no experimental at all this limit needs to be observed and tested in a stable version (making stable the new experimental on console ).

Nothing is set in stone so they didn't change the 64 setting nor added any text that explains how it really works.

All changes in experimentals that are not revoked ultimately surface in a stable version as well, so I don't see how "leaving" it in an experimental could help you.

Leave it in experimental as it doesn’t make sense and, see how players react to it in experimental before putting it out as a stable version for both pc and console. That’s what I meant. Because from what I’ve seem here no one likes the change, or at least agrees with how they went about it. Again, they should have left it alone and let players decide how they want to manage their performance