PC V1.1 b4 EXP

[DickJustice]

1. You will always need a new map if you want new POI or most POI updates and you can probably expect to see POI added after the game is actually gold, which means new maps when they do so is you want those.  New POI don't magically appear on an existing map.  You can, of course, edit your map in world editor and update it to include the POI and then use chunk reset so those updates appear in your save.  No need to miss out on the is you really want them in an existing save.

2. They will continue to update until gold (see roadmap) and there will likely be bug fix patches released after gold and likely stuff like new POI (the last isn't confirmed and it's only my guess).  You have a choice here. Knowing that there will continue to be updates, you can wait until gold to play the game, or you can play the game and restart each version to get the updated stuff (you don't even have to use experimental), or you can stay on an older version until your current game ends and then update, or you can update and keep playing your current game even though you may not have all the new things, or you can update your map and save as I mentioned above.  But no matter what option you choose, the game will continue to get updates that may require a restart in order to get all of those changes.

Which I understand, I understand that the updates will continue and that the 1.0 is pretty much a formality, and I thank you for the options given, but I still gotta say, making 1.0 a formality is on the dev's end, not the player's end. 

For a player, 1.0 means 1.0. It means forget about restarts. To then put over 40 hours in and casually get "new game strongly recommended" dropped on your lap, there's either a lack of communication or a lack of consideration, but something is amiss.

Sounds like a great way to respond. It is just a recommendation.  You do not have to restart. This is still an experimental release.

I don't have to restart but if I don't I miss out on POI stuff and bug fixes.

 

[Armor9]

It is still alpha, yes.  It is not gold. 

And you can reset a POI using chunk reset and it should update to include the new POI changes.  It just will not add new POI to your map.  For that, you would need to use the world editor.

No sorry, when you go to 1.0 you don't get to use the Alpha excuse any more.  Plus they increased the price so no, next excuse. 

As for using the World Editor, resetting chunks, etc., as I said, if they want us to have to go that route, they should provide detailed official instructions on how to do that so the POIs are fixed/updated.  Saying, its there, figure it out is poor customer service. 

 

[DickJustice]

As for using the World Editor, resetting chunks, etc., as I said, if they want us to have to go that route, they should provide detailed official instructions on how to do that so the POIs are fixed/updated.  Saying, its there, figure it out is poor customer service. 

Exactly. If there's a workaround, it'd be much appreciated to know about it in an official capacity, like for example addressing this issue in a Steam post or something. A lot of people, not just me or @Armor9, are having this issue. Getting a dry "no one is forcing you to restart, these are your options, figure it out" is not the way to address a valid customer complaint.

 

[Riamus]

No sorry, when you go to 1.0 you don't get to use the Alpha excuse any more.  Plus they increased the price so no, next excuse. 

As for using the World Editor, resetting chunks, etc., as I said, if they want us to have to go that route, they should provide detailed official instructions on how to do that so the POIs are fixed/updated.  Saying, its there, figure it out is poor customer service. 

It isn't early access, but it is still essentially alpha.  They have stated that it is not gold.  Now, I think using 1.0 was a bad idea, but they likely had no choice if they wanted to make the game available for console players rather than make them wait another could of years.   I think all the console players would prefer calling it 1.0 rather than wait.  Do their opinions matter? 

Which I understand, I understand that the updates will continue and that the 1.0 is pretty much a formality, and I thank you for the options given, but I still gotta say, making 1.0 a formality is on the dev's end, not the player's end. 

For a player, 1.0 means 1.0. It means forget about restarts. To then put over 40 hours in and casually get "new game strongly recommended" dropped on your lap, there's either a lack of communication or a lack of consideration, but something is amiss.

I don't have to restart but if I don't I miss out on POI stuff and bug fixes.

Remember that the update is experimental and not stable.  Most players should not even be playing experimental as that is a beta release meant to find bugs and test changes and not intended for normal gameplay.  Almost any developer who releases a beta will tell you that your current game is not guaranteed to work after beta is over.

 

[DED-EFIM]

Could you give some examples, especially those that "ruin the game"?

as an example I can point to skill magazine, at a cost of 300 dukes from traders (in vending machines of players 100) I can buy 100 pieces for 30000 dukes, and thus complete any skill of crafting an item, maybe in a single game it is not so noticeable, but I have my own dedicated server on which 20+ players play simultaneously. the same applies to the weapons and tools that the trader offers, it is too cheap, having only a wrench I can earn 30000 dukes on disassembling equipment in one game day

ps: Sorry if I explained it badly but I don't know English

 

[Armor9]

Remember that the update is experimental and not stable.  Most players should not even be playing experimental as that is a beta release meant to find bugs and test changes and not intended for normal gameplay.  Almost any developer who releases a beta will tell you that your current game is not guaranteed to work after beta is over.

This is a poor argument because this is only about experimental because when it is out of experimental and stable, they are STILL going to say that restarting is highly recommended.  When that happens, what will be the excuse then? 

As for console folk, no sorry I honestly don't care, I play on PC.  TFP releasing it on console and increasing the amount they charge on PC was all about the $$$.

Heck after all the millions they made these last few weeks, perhaps they will invest some of that in paying someone with customer service skills. 

 

[Riamus]

as an example I can point to skill magazine, at a cost of 300 dukes from traders (in vending machines of players 100) I can buy 100 pieces for 30000 dukes, and thus complete any skill of crafting an item, maybe in a single game it is not so noticeable, but I have my own dedicated server on which 20+ players play simultaneously. the same applies to the weapons and tools that the trader offers, it is too cheap, having only a wrench I can earn 30000 dukes on disassembling equipment in one game day

ps: Sorry if I explained it badly but I don't know English

Maybe, but they only have a limited quantity available and reset every 3 days, so you aren't going to get 100 of any given magazine very quickly.

 

[DickJustice]

It isn't early access, but it is still essentially alpha.  They have stated that it is not gold.  Now, I think using 1.0 was a bad idea, but they likely had no choice if they wanted to make the game available for console players rather than make them wait another could of years.   I think all the console players would prefer calling it 1.0 rather than wait.  Do their opinions matter? 

Sure they matter. But this game has been in early release for PC players for over 10 years. Formal or not, 1.0 is a milestone for PC players. A long-awaited "I don't have to restart anymore to miss out on content" sorta thing. If you go "do console players' opinions matter", you have to say the same for PC players.

Remember that the update is experimental and not stable.  Most players should not even be playing experimental as that is a beta release meant to find bugs and test changes and not intended for normal gameplay.  Almost any developer who releases a beta will tell you that your current game is not guaranteed to work after beta is over.

Right, I understand that. But then it'll be Stable, so, I don't see what relevance this point has. 

Another thing is that the chunk reset and world editor apply for the POI stuff, but what about other updates? Bug fixes too.

 

[Riamus]

This is a poor argument because this is only about experimental because when it is out of experimental and stable, they are STILL going to say that restarting is highly recommended.  When that happens, what will be the excuse then? 

As for console folk, no sorry I honestly don't care, I play on PC.  TFP releasing it on console and increasing the amount they charge on PC was all about the $$$.

Heck after all the millions they made these last few weeks, perhaps they will invest some of that in paying someone with customer service skills. 

The response was to someone who is upset that they have to restart right now, which they do not.  And the response I have earlier applies for after stable... If you want new content, you need a new map.  For updates to existing content, you need to either reset the content or start a new save.  This will be true even after gold if they add new POI or update existing ones.  Note that if you have chunk reset enabled in options, the POI will automatically reset to the new versions when the chunks reset.  This won't help in areas where you visit regularly because chunks won't reset in those areas.  Either way, this will always be the case.  They can either not update POI or add new ones, or you can start a new game when you are ready to use those.  I would much rather get updates and new POI even if I won't see them until my next game.

Another thing is that the chunk reset and world editor apply for the POI stuff, but what about other updates? Bug fixes too.

Which ones require a new game?  I would need to look back over them, but I don't think many beyond POI would.

 

[DED-EFIM]

Maybe, but they only have a minute quantity available and reset every 3 days, so you aren't going to get 100 of any given magazine very quickly.

yes but there are 15 or more traders on the map and nothing prevents you from buying them all, besides I showed what the merchant immediately offers at the first stage of the game, and this is not a little

 

[DickJustice]

Which ones require a new game?  I would need to look back over them, but I don't think many beyond POI would.

I will say I was under the impression that a restart concerned bug fixes and other updates - if they don't, and it's just the POI stuff, then a post with detailed instructions on how to troubleshoot this by a member of the team would go a long way towards resolving this concern. What you mentioned about the chunk reset and world editor is still more work than a paying customer would have to do - and as kind as your advice is, it'd be nice to get it from a dev member as well, in an official capacity which addresses the issue.

Like I said, a lot of great, hard, long work has clearly been put into this game - why leave anything unresolved. Takes but one post to assuage these doubts for PC players.

 

[Riamus]

Sure they matter. But this game has been in early release for PC players for over 10 years. Formal or not, 1.0 is a milestone for PC players. A long-awaited "I don't have to restart anymore to miss out on content" sorta thing. If you go "do console players' opinions matter", you have to say the same for PC players.

Of course PC players matter (I am one).  But what issue do you think matters more?  Console: I can't play the game at all for another couple years because it can't be released on console until 1.0, or PC: I have to start a new game whenever I feel like getting the latest content?

yes but there are 15 or more traders on the map and nothing prevents you from buying them all, besides I showed what the merchant immediately offers at the first stage of the game, and this is not a little

On day one or for a while after, no player can hit every trader on the map because they don't know where they are located and the distance is such that getting to them without a vehicle isn't really an option within the reset timeframe.  Also, you mentioned a server.  If everyone is buying magazines, no one is getting all of them from every trader.

I will say I was under the impression that a restart concerned bug fixes and other updates - if they don't, and it's just the POI stuff, then a post with detailed instructions on how to troubleshoot this by a member of the team would go a long way towards resolving this concern. What you mentioned about the chunk reset and world editor is still more work than a paying customer would have to do - and as kind as your advice is, it'd be nice to get it from a dev member as well, in an official capacity which addresses the issue.

Like I said, a lot of great, hard, long work has clearly been put into this game - why leave anything unresolved. Takes but one post to assuage these doubts for PC players.

I just looked over the changes and unless I missed something, I don't think anything but POI would require a new save.  Maybe a dev will get around to saying the same, but they don't post all the time and other than faatal and Laz Man, their responses are generally short as they have other things to work on.  Could they give better replies with more details?  Absolutely.  But if you have been playing this long, I'm sure you've seen that they don't normally do so.  I would expect them to change. 

I know chunk reset and world editor aren't what most players will do.  On the other hand, most players aren't going to be upset that they are missing some POI until their next game.  In fact, most maps do not include every POI to begin with.  I just offered those options for anyone who really wants the latest POI without staying a new game.

Also keep in mind that unlike most games that you play one game and then not again for a period of time (often a year or more), this game you are likely playing new games regularly.  Most players aren't going past day 50-75 or so unless they are on a persistent server.  This means you will get the new content before long even if you wait until your current game ends.

 

[DickJustice]

Of course PC players matter (I am one).  But what issue do you think matters more?  Console: I can't play the game at all for another couple years because it can't be released on console until 1.0, or PC: I have to start a new game whenever I feel like getting the latest content?

I think you're making it a binary one or the other sort of issue when it doesn't have to be. Console players' experience will matter to the Fun Pimps but so should that of PC players' - find the middle ground. Explain these concerns to the customer. Communicate with the customer. Explain exactly, concisely, clearly, what content a PC player is missing if they don't restart the game - and what workarounds are available. Make it clear for how long this will be. Explain that although 1.0 out of early access is being done - it's not yet final and many more updates will come, this way you avoid obvious misconceptions that are really on the dev, not loyal PC customers who have stuck with the game for long. Concerns like "1.0 is not actually 1.0".

If I don't come here to the 7daystodie website, and I get all my update information from the Steam page, I am simply not informed. As a paying customer this is unacceptable.

And you're also downplaying these valid concerns.

I have to start a new game whenever I feel like getting the latest content?

It's not that I "feel like" the latest content - it's supposed to be included in the package. It's not alpha anymore. You appear to have a different relationship with the product, where these things don't matter as much to you, and you hang out in these forums and are knowledgeable enough to know about chunk reset and world editor - I'm not. It's not my job.

 

[FranticDan]

Could you give some examples, especially those that "ruin the game"?

To me, there's one questionable price for the economy, and that is the price of 7500 for a water filter, which is the weakest of the 3 dew collector tools. IMO, the filter is now worth less than what it was in A21 (2250) due to its sole use of only saving you some wood for boiling the water yourself. 

 

[DickJustice]

I know chunk reset and world editor aren't what most players will do.  On the other hand, most players aren't going to be upset that they are missing some POI until their next game.  

I don't know that you can really say with verifiable accuracy that most players won't be upset - to be told you need to restart right after beginning a 1.0 non-early-release game means there's something that should've been communicated that wasn't. It's that simple. It's not about qualifying how bad the issue is - whether it's only POI, whether the lack of a proper 1.0 is for console players, whether this or that. There was a lack of basic customer communication.

Plus, if you go into the Steam page, look for the latest 1.1 announcement post and browse the comments, you can see there are many users voicing these concerns.

 

[Riamus]

I think you're making it a binary one or the other sort of issue when it doesn't have to be. 

It's not that I "feel like" the latest content - it's supposed to be included in the package. It's not alpha anymore. You appear to have a different relationship with the product, where these things don't matter as much to you, and you hang out in these forums and are knowledgeable enough to know about chunk reset and world editor - I'm not. It's not my job.

It is binary in a way. If they can't release console without it being 1.0, then their only choice is don't release or change the version to 1.0 earlier than intended.  I wasn't saying they could only care about one or the other, but when it is an "either or" choice, it isn't surprising they would choose to release to console.

As far as the new content being included... It is.  But you need a new game for it to be there.  Towns aren't going to just update to add new POI in the middle of your game. 

But in any case, there really isn't much else I can say.  The devs aren't going to be more communicative than they've been for years and some updates require a new save.  That also won't change.  I wish I could offer some better news on those, but that's really just how things are regarding these.  I've given what I can to help and clarified some stuff.  I'll let others respond now if they want, though not sure what else can really be said. 

Remember that most devs do not give much of any explanation for their design choices or even respond to forum posts, so TFP is actually doing better than most.  Of course there are some devs who do an amazing job with that, but they are few and far between.  Hoping or expecting all devs to be like that is futile.  Personally, I just accept how they are and not let it bother me.  Life is too short.

 

[DickJustice]

It is binary in a way. If they can't release console without it being 1.0, then their only choice is don't release or change the version to 1.0 earlier than intended.  I wasn't saying they could only care about one or the other, but when it is an "either or" choice, it isn't surprising they would choose to release to console.

I mean binary in the sense of shafting console or PC players. I agree from a business standpoint it makes sense to prioritize a console launch. The issue is when you don't clearly communicate the implications to PC players.

But in any case, there really isn't much else I can say.  The devs aren't going to be more communicative than they've been for years and some updates require a new save.  That also won't change.  I wish I could offer some better news on those, but that's really just how things are regarding these.  I've given what I can to help and clarified some stuff.  I'll let others respond now if they want, though not sure what else can really be said. 

Remember that most devs do not give much of any explanation for their design choices or even respond to forum posts, so TFP is actually doing better than most.  Of course there are some devs who do an amazing job with that, but they are few and far between.  Hoping or expecting all devs to be like that is futile.  Personally, I just accept how they are and not let it bother me.  Life is too short.

I think looking at the other dev to say "well they don't provide good customer service, we are great by comparison" is not really it - you act in accordance with acceptable standards, not somebody else's.

In any event, yes, making the roadmap public and continually updating is pretty good. Like I said from my very first post - I have much appreciation for the work done and the product that the devs have delivered over the years.

But this is a really basic concern which must be addressed. It just has to be. It's a minimum standard to keep a customer appraised of important developments in advance like "1.0 isn't 1.0" and more restarts will be required - and the necessary workarounds. It takes no more than one post to do this - so I don't really see the "devs don't talk much beyond updates" point.

And to be honest I'm not really bothered, just disappointed. You can say "life is too short" while at the same time addressing valid and basic concerns. 

Whatever the case may be, I appreciate your attempts to offer insight. Regards.

 

[DED-EFIM]

On day one or for a while after, no player can hit every trader on the map because they don't know where they are located and the distance is such that getting to them without a vehicle isn't really an option within the reset timeframe.  Also, you mentioned a server.  If everyone is buying magazines, no one is getting all of them from every trader.

yes but you forget that I was talking specifically about the server and players trade them at a low price because it is initially low

 

[Riamus]

yes but you forget that I was talking specifically about the server and players trade them at a low price because it is initially low

But you still have a limited number.  I don't think this is really a problem, and if it is on a given server, that price is really changed and doesn't require the change to be installed on client computers.  Prices shouldn't be balanced just for more extreme cases but for the average players.  Most are not getting maxed out quickly just because the price is 300.  In fact, most complaints here relating to magazines are that they advance too slowly.

 

[DED-EFIM]

Most are not getting maxed out quickly just because the price is 300.  In fact, most complaints here relating to magazines are that they advance too slowly.

slowly? with a certain skill by level 40 I had, for example, a crucible without problems, without buying a single one magazine

amount of loot 0.75