PC So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[leaderdog]

A longer stone age would work if the map or RWG supported it.

Imagine a map like this: The initial spawn point is in a sparsely populated area.  (The Duke drove you to the middle of nowhere and left you for dead)  POIs are rare in this part of the map, so what you can make is what you got.  Stone age lasts a while.

To advance to iron/steel, you need to travel to the part of the map where civilization exists.  Hopefully you go in the right direction!  Also, getting to civilized areas with better loot should involve crossing dangerous areas that should be very difficult for a player in week 1 to cross.

This would be agreat concept for a custom map.  Getting to the good loot should involve travelling tens of km on foot, or by bike if you get lucky enough to find one.  This way a player can spend the stone age getting basic equipment, and must travel to get better equipment.

It will be interesting when the game goes gold and custom player made maps become a thing.  Creating a map designed to be an epic journey could be fun!

It used to be like that.

There used to be zombies in the wild too.  unlike the sparsely populated world now.

I tried to modify the loot.xml because finding stone axes in a sealed loot crate seemed preposterous to me.  No luck it didn't seem to fix it... plus I'm not much of a modder.  So I upped the zombies in the world to 60 during the day and 30 during the night and gifted myself a level 4 bat.  I've been having  a BLAST!  Although I'm starting to wonder what's up with the respawns as any area I clear if I leave it seems it's full of zombies again.  Regardless though increasing the zombies has made the game so much more enjoyable than it's been in a very very long time.  Who would have thought having lots of zombies in a zombie game might be enjoyable.

but as to the OPs question.  No there shouldn't be stone tools in sealed crates.  Just have anything else usable.  frames, rebar frames, and what is better than getting a stone axe.  Simply omitting the stone tools would have made it more logical.  Although I think hammers and iron shovels should still be in the low level crates as that makes sense.

 

[iejen]

They wanted to extend the game's stone age, which is a good thing in my opinion.

 

[gwhit]

If you don't like nerdpoling to the top of POI's to snag the main loot, then don't do it. How does anyone else exploiting this mechanic affect you? Besides, if you really wanted to, you could turn on DM mode, turn on Fly Mode, and achieve the same thing. Sure, I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but at the end of the day, they are more similar than different.

Plus there are plenty of POI's where the main loot is at ground level or underground.

Some people are wanabe Facists at heart and want to dictate how other live and play games.

 

[Sawth77]

I don't have a problem with the stone age as a starting point, though if you're making a "realism" argument, anyone who has tools at their house has modern implements purchased from the local home/construction store.  Realistically, the mass majority of people have zero idea how to actually construct a forge, or shape metal into tools, etc.  Trying to cobble together stones and sticks to make basic implements seems, at least to me, as a natural progression in crafting before you can begin cranking out better things.

However, making iron tools the default starting point wouldn't be the worst thing, but as presented just comes across as wanting something more efficient at the beginning rather than having to earn it.  Maybe i'm interpreting that wrong.  I'd be fine with a balance of having iron tools as a default, but early on having a  better than average chance to find a rusted one that's complete crap and breaks easier.  
 

 

[Bashtiks]

I admire your composure. Many a person would be angry or at least annoyed, when somebody stole your well earned loot in a cheesy way after you worked hard for it by going through a PoI.  Just one question. Do you yourself use nerdpolling or similar tactics to get to loot quickly in order to skip killing zombies?

yes I do use nerdpolling/digging/going thro shortcuts etc. 

Thing is .. ima a veteran player, I have tried all the ways of gameplay: slow, fast, powerleveling, ''realistic'', sneaky, melee, ranged, cheesing, standart etc. ..

For example situation: Your play on mp server. Go into the random poi - u see the loot is untouched in the start of the poi - all good - u clear out all the poi - still all containers untouched - u get to the final room and see that that final boxes are looted - turns out 1 person was clearing poi before you without touching other containers but going only for the final loot room ... 

Thing is .. looting now itself is as easy as it gets ... with trader quests and pois that respawns looting is a childs play ... Its not like u are clearing Hiagashi tower the hard way in a16 and in the end getting looted secret stash boxes ...

So yea, as long as there are a multiple ways how to obtain same thing, and freedom of gameplay I have no problems

 

[Aldranon]

Stone tools in sealed chests could be explained.

The Apocalypse in 7D2D would have been a "Double-tap".

First Tap: A new flu virus that spread throughout the world, no vaccine was ever found so it stayed around, destabilizing the world.  Wars and rumors of wars abound.

A pause...  Allowing some vain attempts at rebuilding, shipping easy to make stone tools, weapons and lots of manuals.

Second Tap:  Within a year the flu virus mutated many times and eventually became the zombie virus.  Nuclear strikes were used in a vain attempt to stop it.  

 

[Onarr]

Some people are wanabe Facists at heart and want to dictate how other live and play games.

Person A: I feel like nerdpolling could be an issue if we put best loot at the end of a hard PoI. You could easily get it by skipping the challenge and get unfair advantage over other players.
Person B: He is a fascist that wants us to dictate how we should play the game

Person C : Well that escalated quickly

yes I do use nerdpolling/digging/going thro shortcuts etc. 

Thing is .. ima a veteran player, I have tried all the ways of gameplay: slow, fast, powerleveling, ''realistic'', sneaky, melee, ranged, cheesing, standart etc. ..

For example situation: Your play on mp server. Go into the random poi - u see the loot is untouched in the start of the poi - all good - u clear out all the poi - still all containers untouched - u get to the final room and see that that final boxes are looted - turns out 1 person was clearing poi before you without touching other containers but going only for the final loot room ... 

Thing is .. looting now itself is as easy as it gets ... with trader quests and pois that respawns looting is a childs play ... Its not like u are clearing Hiagashi tower the hard way in a16 and in the end getting looted secret stash boxes ...

So yea, as long as there are a multiple ways how to obtain same thing, and freedom of gameplay I have no problems

Thanks for your honesty. But imagine you are new player, you clear a PoI and see that the loot is gonne. You are angry, Later you find out that some other players just use nerpolling to get to loot. Why would you bother running through PoI if there is a chance loot is not even there? Few more times and he will use nerpolling too, even through he would rather clear the PoI. I have no problem with exploits that do not affect other people. But I think nerpolling is one of those that does affect others. If you think its otherwise then lets just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[Boidster]

But imagine you are new player, you clear a PoI and see that the loot is gonne. You are angry, Later you find out that some other players just use nerpolling to get to loot. Why would you bother running through PoI if there is a chance loot is not even there?

Imagine you find yourself in a zombie apocalypse and you know there is a store-room of weapons at the top of the gun store. Would you open the front door and fight your way through the former employees, or throw your extension ladder up the wall and try to grab the guns unseen? You have chosen to play in a world where several other people have the same incentives and goals as you do. Why are you angry that they are accomplishing those goals in their own way? Seems to me that "crap, someone has already looted this place" is a pretty damn realistic portrayal of a true multiple-survivor every-person-for-him/herself apocalypse. Even PvE is PvP in this game.

I'm keen to read how, in a sandbox, fully-destructible/buildable voxel world, you could ever solve the issue you are concerned about.

 

[Onarr]

Imagine you find yourself in a zombie apocalypse and you know there is a store-room of weapons at the top of the gun store. Would you open the front door and fight your way through the former employees, or throw your extension ladder up the wall and try to grab the guns unseen? You have chosen to play in a world where several other people have the same incentives and goals as you do. Why are you angry that they are accomplishing those goals in their own way? Seems to me that "crap, someone has already looted this place" is a pretty damn realistic portrayal of a true multiple-survivor every-person-for-him/herself apocalypse. Even PvE is PvP in this game.

I'm keen to read how, in a sandbox, fully-destructible/buildable voxel world, you could ever solve the issue you are concerned about.

Well the weapons would be behind lock and a key in secure room, so you can not just get to it. And that is also the solution to the problem. Loot room is encased in steel blocks and strong door and key spawns in random loot container or drops from random enemy inside PoI.  The hardiness of the blocks would of course be varied based on Tier. This way you could still nerdpoll, but you would have hard time breaking in. Seems like good balance to me. Early game its better to find the key, later when you have good tools and explosives you just blow your way in.

Second way to counter it is to spread the loot through out the POI instead having it in one single room. 

Third way is to implement randomly generated PoI, where you do not know where loot room is. I fully intend to do this as a mod once the game hits gold.

 

[Ralathar44]

Do not be quick to brush off "realism", because, besides necessary gameplay compromises here and there, the game is utterly realistic at its core (world setting, physics, crafting etc). "Realistic" in games never means that "we just copy real life at its entirety" after all.

-It doesn't have to trample gameplay -- it can complement it (e.g. player needs, injuries, inventory system, crafting). 

-It is the game being consistent with its own setting.

Don't get me wrong, I always yelled about how it's a waste, that a game with so much content wasn't exploiting it properly, and I really wanted progression to become more structured because so much of that content wasn't used, either because there was no reason for it to be used, or because the progression was arbitrary.  There were many extra reasons progression was inconsistent though -- e.g. terribly balanced lootlists, which is still a problem imo. 

But with the world being so reliant on some meta information like the player's GS instead of actual in-game information (zones, POIs), suspension of belief takes a hit and progression becomes predictable and linear. Not to mention that it will push players to control their GS even further. Put in an extreme way (that obviously doesn't do the game justice, but gets the point across), the world feels like an empty canvas with scattered loot chests having standard contents/location, and what surrounds these loot chests or where they are, hardly matters. Allegedly, they will see to making POIs/zones matter more, but for that to happen, spawns/enemy scaling and much more have to be revamped as well.

The problem is when you frame the argument as a series of double standards it loses all it's merit.  It becomes a strictly subjective idea of "what I prefer" and ceases to be about actual realism.  Just be honest and say that you'd prefer the game to do x/y rather than couch your arguments as if they are about realism.  All you're doing is making a subjective list of double standards.

Suspension of disbelief does not apply here.  The game isn't a realism simulator.  The game world was never believable from day 1 and it was never sold as realistic or believable in any way even during the days of the kickstarter.  Stop trying to force your own headcannon vision on the game, that's not what it is and that's not what has made it so successful.  It's been so successful because it fills a niche no other survival game does and because it's a game @%$*#! game where gameplay comes first and realism bits are only added for flavor.  Continue telling them what you'd prefer them to change, that's good...feedback is good, just stop pretending it's about realism.  All it does is devalue your feedback since it's quite obvious how little the arguments/game actually have to do with realism.

 

[Kalen]

Third way is to implement randomly generated PoI, where you do not know where loot room is. I fully intend to do this as a mod once the game hits gold.

This is really the correct answer, IMO.

Arguing that people shouldn't break their way into store rooms instead of going the long way around is a losing argument.   Its a game with a fully destructible environment.... thats one of its strengths.   People should be encouraged to make use of that fact not avoid it.

 

[Laz Man]

This is really the correct answer, IMO.

Arguing that people shouldn't break their way into store rooms instead of going the long way around is a losing argument.   Its a game with a fully destructible environment.... thats one of its strengths.   People should be encouraged to make use of that fact not avoid it.

Funny that you mention that.  I was browsing the Nexus mod page recently and saw one for indestructable blocks for creating dungeons.  As a prefab creator, I can appreciate the ability to send a player down a specific path, however it does detract from one of the games major selling points (fully destructable world).  I think breaking into store rooms is inevitable due to how dungeon POIs are currently implemented.  Should it be difficult...sure....but not impossible.

I think another way to go about it (relatively quick fix) is to create a block similar to the quest satchel item, and have it have a chance to spawn in multiple locations within the POI.  The problem with doing this is designing the POI where those multiple locations are immersive loot caches...Don't make much sense in a smaller T1 POI but for a T5 it should be like that 100% of the time. given how long it takes the player to clear/explore one.

 

[Roland]

Imagine you find yourself in a zombie apocalypse and you know there is a store-room of weapons at the top of the gun store.

This is actually the most unrealistic part of it all. People claim to want to be playing this as a realistic apocalyptic experience but then utilize knowledge their character could never know. I guess if your character had access to memories of past lives or parallel universes plus the underpinning mechanics of how the universe was working all from the get-go without needing to observe things and notice patterns.

If we were in a real apocalypse you wouldn't know exactly where the best loot was. You wouldn't think in terms of gamestage. You wouldn't use knowledge of under-the-hood game mechanics to gain an advantage. The heat map and game stage and spawn masks and sleeper volumes are meant to simulate events and circumstances but as soon as you use your knowledge of how those mechanics work to gain an advantage you've already left realism behind-- and that was your choice to do so. TFP are not the only stakeholders responsible for providing for a feeling of realism in the game.

As the puppet masters for our avatars we can only get a realistic experience if we roleplay it. We are a little too much GM at this point to be able to just play using all of our knowledge about the workings of the game and our experience from many hours of play which we then lend to our characters-- and then expect to have a truly interesting story happen.

I mean the same people who complain that zombies have knowledge they should not go into a game having studied the patch notes backwards and forwards in order to use knowledge their character should not use. Even something as simple as studying the map you generated before entering the game is doing something quite hypocritical if you are also complaining that zombies shouldn't know that this wall is double thick but that wall is single thick....

 

[Ralathar44]

This is actually the most unrealistic part of it all. People claim to want to be playing this as a realistic apocalyptic experience but then utilize knowledge their character could never know. I guess if your character had access to memories of past lives or parallel universes plus the underpinning mechanics of how the universe was working all from the get-go without needing to observe things and notice patterns.

If we were in a real apocalypse you wouldn't know exactly where the best loot was. You wouldn't think in terms of gamestage. You wouldn't use knowledge of under-the-hood game mechanics to gain an advantage. The heat map and game stage and spawn masks and sleeper volumes are meant to simulate events and circumstances but as soon as you use your knowledge of how those mechanics work to gain an advantage you've already left realism behind-- and that was your choice to do so. TFP are not the only stakeholders responsible for providing for a feeling of realism in the game.

As the puppet masters for our avatars we can only get a realistic experience if we roleplay it. We are a little too much GM at this point to be able to just play using all of our knowledge about the workings of the game and our experience from many hours of play which we then lend to our characters-- and then expect to have a truly interesting story happen.

I mean the same people who complain that zombies have knowledge they should not go into a game having studied the patch notes backwards and forwards in order to use knowledge their character should not use. Even something as simple as studying the map you generated before entering the game is doing something quite hypocritical if you are also complaining that zombies shouldn't know that this wall is double thick but that wall is single thick....

Exactly.  I also don't see people complaining when their character comes back to life after they die either.  Being unable to permanently die is one of the single most unrealistic things in the game.  Surely everyone complaining about realism deletes their save and starts again after every death .

 

[RestInPieces]

The problem is when you frame the argument as a series of double standards it loses all it's merit.  It becomes a strictly subjective idea of "what I prefer" and ceases to be about actual realism.  Just be honest and say that you'd prefer the game to do x/y rather than couch your arguments as if they are about realism.  All you're doing is making a subjective list of double standards.

 Again, it is obvious that realism in games is never regarded as the absolute imitation of reality, because more often than not, gameplay has to take precedence. Depending on the genre and game itself, figuring out when to use realism to your advantage, or when realism would harm gameplay, is no rocket science, so no double standards and nothing subjective about it.

Suspension of disbelief does not apply here.  The game isn't a realism simulator.

Suspension of disbelief applies pretty much to every multimedia form of art. I don't know where you got that "realism simulator" thing but it is irrelevant. 

I suggest that you watch this to understand what I said in my previous post:

 

[Boidster]

Well the weapons would be behind lock and a key in secure room, so you can not just get to it. And that is also the solution to the problem. Loot room is encased in steel blocks and strong door and key spawns in random loot container or drops from random enemy inside PoI.  The hardiness of the blocks would of course be varied based on Tier. This way you could still nerdpoll, but you would have hard time breaking in. Seems like good balance to me. Early game its better to find the key, later when you have good tools and explosives you just blow your way in.

I...but...this...how DARE you actually come up with reasonable ideas?!? I absolutely agree that shortcuts to the loot should come with significant risk - as significant perhaps as just going through the POI, depending on the player's perks/skills. Now, having a steel-reinforced concrete vault in the back of the small-town Shotgun Messiah might set off the "realism!" folks, but the idea of having a special key is kinda neat. Randomly-placed loot rooms is also a good idea especially in bigger POIs.

 

[Kalen]

This is actually the most unrealistic part of it all. People claim to want to be playing this as a realistic apocalyptic experience but then utilize knowledge their character could never know. I guess if your character had access to memories of past lives or parallel universes plus the underpinning mechanics of how the universe was working all from the get-go without needing to observe things and notice patterns.

If we were in a real apocalypse you wouldn't know exactly where the best loot was. You wouldn't think in terms of gamestage. You wouldn't use knowledge of under-the-hood game mechanics to gain an advantage. The heat map and game stage and spawn masks and sleeper volumes are meant to simulate events and circumstances but as soon as you use your knowledge of how those mechanics work to gain an advantage you've already left realism behind-- and that was your choice to do so. TFP are not the only stakeholders responsible for providing for a feeling of realism in the game.

As the puppet masters for our avatars we can only get a realistic experience if we roleplay it. We are a little too much GM at this point to be able to just play using all of our knowledge about the workings of the game and our experience from many hours of play which we then lend to our characters-- and then expect to have a truly interesting story happen.

I mean the same people who complain that zombies have knowledge they should not go into a game having studied the patch notes backwards and forwards in order to use knowledge their character should not use. Even something as simple as studying the map you generated before entering the game is doing something quite hypocritical if you are also complaining that zombies shouldn't know that this wall is double thick but that wall is single thick....

This is why more randomization of POIs would be awesome.   I pretty much always do POIs by following the intended path, but I can't stop using my personal knowledge of their design, "I know there's likely to be a sleeper in that cabinet..... or I know a bunch of zombies are going to fall from the ceiling.... or I know that floor is going to collapse when I step on it".   I would love to not have that knowledge.

 

[Boidster]

Imagine you find yourself in a zombie apocalypse and you know there is a store-room of weapons at the top of the gun store.

This is actually the most unrealistic part of it all. People claim to want to be playing this as a realistic apocalyptic experience but then utilize knowledge their character could never know. I guess if your character had access to memories of past lives or parallel universes plus the underpinning mechanics of how the universe was working all from the get-go without needing to observe things and notice patterns.

IS NOT. Perhaps I was a frequent customer of that particular gun store before the apocalypse, did'ja ever think of that huh? Huh?

I actually agree with you, seeing as my definition of "cheese" is only, "using knowledge or abilities the survivor would not have". I don't think any particular arrangement of player-crafted blocks can ever constitute "cheese". My argument was more about how "realistic" it is for a person with the knowledge to take the direct route. Even within the game world and with RP, it is not unreasonable for a survivor, having looted one cookie-cutter Shotgun Messiah, to presume certain things about the other stores' layouts. Every single Home Depot has contractor entrance on one side (same side as the lumber) and electrical/paint on the other side with cabinetry/appliances in the back and tools near the registers. If I loot a Home Depot and find a safe in the manager's office, perhaps the next Home Depot I loot I'll just go in the back door to get the safe first.

Randomized loot rooms would be an excellent semi-counter to this.

I personally don't care too much about realism, but more about consistency. If the world allows me to break blocks and place ladders, then I ought to be able to do that anywhere and everywhere in the game world (at least non-game-breaking places; I get the exemption for Traders). If it's RP for me to do so or not, that's between me and the FSM. I think we kinda agree there.

 

[Strykhar]

"Why are primitive tools even a lootable object?"

The answer and problem is the search of game play balance with existing game mechanics and item sets.  After playing A19 for some time, I agree with TFP direction; however, it could be better executed with additional item tiers or item mechanics.

An issue with recent changes is that stone tools are superior to iron/steel due to mods for level 5 & 6 stone tools and their low stamina usage with the current hunger system.  This is until you dump at least 2 points into T-Rex and have an ergo mod applied to your iron/steel tool.  At least, that's how it plays for me, currently in experimental a19.

TFP could set stone tools to be craft item only, then add an additional tool material level/tier between stone and iron which are marginally better than stone , or implement a item/game mechanic to limit or nerf the looted iron/steel tools found early game. 

As examples:

• An extremely low quality/defective iron & steel item flag/attribute which will cause the item to never equal their "normal" counter parts.
  
  non-repairable, destroyed when broke/at random, sells for next to nothing, or functionally defective and inferior to late game/crafted options. 
  

In short, they're balancing the game not balancing realism or immersion.  Let's be honest, this game has very little realism or "immersion", if any.  It's just a fun game with very simple game mechanics.

 

[meganoth]

IS NOT. Perhaps I was a frequent customer of that particular gun store before the apocalypse, did'ja ever think of that huh? Huh?

So the gun store manager shows his frequent customers where the valuable guns are? Tell me the managers name, I'll have him fired immediatly.

Meganoth,

CEO Shotgun Messiah

"We please to aim"