So looting and trader visits will be equally fruitless? At least they are being consistent.
PC So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?
- Thread starter watzlp
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Onarr
New member
Imho the stone age should be completely removed. Iron age should be new stone age. Why do you need 4 tiers? Is 3 not enough? Its just silly, because most of the stone weapons is useless. CLub? no. Knuckle wraps? You mean those little love tapps - nah Ill pass. Bow and arrows? 4 headshots to kill a zombie....just no. Ill pick sledgehammer over everything, because its most effective. Tools - you have essentially only shovel and stone axe, which at the time you start getting iron tools you have on tier 6 which is on the same lvl as T1 iron tools. And of course, desire to loot at the beginning is really low before you increase your gamestage.
In regards to endgame PoIS having good loot and dangerous enemies from start....nerdpolling and other exploits are the issue. But I believe that can be rectified and worked around
In regards to endgame PoIS having good loot and dangerous enemies from start....nerdpolling and other exploits are the issue. But I believe that can be rectified and worked around
The thing is, that iron tools and firearms have some value - you can scrap/smelt them, get parts from them or sell them. With stone age items you can do it only with scrap armor and blunderbuss. Loot has mostly no value compared to iron age.
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MechanicalLens
New member
If you don't like nerdpoling to the top of POI's to snag the main loot, then don't do it. How does anyone else exploiting this mechanic affect you? Besides, if you really wanted to, you could turn on DM mode, turn on Fly Mode, and achieve the same thing. Sure, I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but at the end of the day, they are more similar than different.
Plus there are plenty of POI's where the main loot is at ground level or underground.
Ramethzer0
Well-known member
Immersion is a strange double edged sword. But, one thing I'd like to point out is the TFP have also stated that this game has arcade elements. I like that the tech levels are spaced and pacing is meant to become more relevant. I feel this is a good thing. Yes, opening up a crate of fresh meat in the desert sun is immersion breaking, but the game as a whole is still pretty enjoyable. There are compromises to consider.
A longer stone age would work if the map or RWG supported it.
Imagine a map like this: The initial spawn point is in a sparsely populated area. (The Duke drove you to the middle of nowhere and left you for dead) POIs are rare in this part of the map, so what you can make is what you got. Stone age lasts a while.
To advance to iron/steel, you need to travel to the part of the map where civilization exists. Hopefully you go in the right direction! Also, getting to civilized areas with better loot should involve crossing dangerous areas that should be very difficult for a player in week 1 to cross.
This would be agreat concept for a custom map. Getting to the good loot should involve travelling tens of km on foot, or by bike if you get lucky enough to find one. This way a player can spend the stone age getting basic equipment, and must travel to get better equipment.
It will be interesting when the game goes gold and custom player made maps become a thing. Creating a map designed to be an epic journey could be fun!
Imagine a map like this: The initial spawn point is in a sparsely populated area. (The Duke drove you to the middle of nowhere and left you for dead) POIs are rare in this part of the map, so what you can make is what you got. Stone age lasts a while.
To advance to iron/steel, you need to travel to the part of the map where civilization exists. Hopefully you go in the right direction! Also, getting to civilized areas with better loot should involve crossing dangerous areas that should be very difficult for a player in week 1 to cross.
This would be agreat concept for a custom map. Getting to the good loot should involve travelling tens of km on foot, or by bike if you get lucky enough to find one. This way a player can spend the stone age getting basic equipment, and must travel to get better equipment.
It will be interesting when the game goes gold and custom player made maps become a thing. Creating a map designed to be an epic journey could be fun!
Synvastian
New member
I think of the stone age tools as being placed in the box prior to the AREA being left by everyone (Before it became over-run by the hordes)
I think of this game with my own RP because that kind of world building is amusing and fun
Heavily inspired by TLoU and other works like "Rot and Ruin"
Timeline of my thinking
Apocalypse/outbreak day: People don't pay much mind, probably just another wave of the flu/especially high pollen count...its just allergies
1 week: Rumors of cannibalistic activity, WHO starts work on finding a cure, Gov't's work to keep news suppressed under urging from the Military
1 month: Multiple cities under quarantine, Military in full force, WHO stops work on cure, instead looks for biological weaknesses to reanimated
6 months: Large amounts of the dead are lured to less used city blocks and bombarded with nukes/missiles, most cities abandoned.
1 year: Most left over cities are walled compounds (Think "The last of us") and access is strict and military in origin, suspected infected are tossed outside the walls, Supplies are limited, and ration cards are issued weekly, access to tools are for tradesman and workers under strict supervision to ensure no theft
year 3-5: Food has become scarce, "Old world" tools are breaking, leading to a boom in self made/forged tools and artisan crafts (sewing), guide books written~
~~{New tools mass produced as often as possible, excess stored in crates to be delivered between settlements, some survivors steal shipments and hide boxes in houses for later retrieval, these new tools, while numerous are drop forged from random metals, and don't last long} ~~
year 5-10/Present: The Duke is pretty much "Robert House in New Vegas" with a large walled piece of the strip, catches a would be Cheater (player) trying to run a scam on a casino, and has his goons leave them somewhere in the wilds (via knockout and a 4X4) and we awake in the morning as the sun starts to heat up.
The reasoning for stone age tools in the boxes is (from my point of view) It's a gameplay hurdle, and in the "reality" of my 7DTD RP, Stone tools were designed to be used when a more valuable tool wasn't quite needed EX: Need a tree knocked down but its not urgent? Stone ax is cheap and plentiful, our Iron ax is looking a bit worn down...Steel tools (real steel) were horded mostly by craftsman who knew the worth, and used as rarely as possible, to ensure they lasted as long as possible.
I think of this game with my own RP because that kind of world building is amusing and fun
Heavily inspired by TLoU and other works like "Rot and Ruin"
Timeline of my thinking
Apocalypse/outbreak day: People don't pay much mind, probably just another wave of the flu/especially high pollen count...its just allergies
1 week: Rumors of cannibalistic activity, WHO starts work on finding a cure, Gov't's work to keep news suppressed under urging from the Military
1 month: Multiple cities under quarantine, Military in full force, WHO stops work on cure, instead looks for biological weaknesses to reanimated
6 months: Large amounts of the dead are lured to less used city blocks and bombarded with nukes/missiles, most cities abandoned.
1 year: Most left over cities are walled compounds (Think "The last of us") and access is strict and military in origin, suspected infected are tossed outside the walls, Supplies are limited, and ration cards are issued weekly, access to tools are for tradesman and workers under strict supervision to ensure no theft
year 3-5: Food has become scarce, "Old world" tools are breaking, leading to a boom in self made/forged tools and artisan crafts (sewing), guide books written~
~~{New tools mass produced as often as possible, excess stored in crates to be delivered between settlements, some survivors steal shipments and hide boxes in houses for later retrieval, these new tools, while numerous are drop forged from random metals, and don't last long} ~~
year 5-10/Present: The Duke is pretty much "Robert House in New Vegas" with a large walled piece of the strip, catches a would be Cheater (player) trying to run a scam on a casino, and has his goons leave them somewhere in the wilds (via knockout and a 4X4) and we awake in the morning as the sun starts to heat up.
The reasoning for stone age tools in the boxes is (from my point of view) It's a gameplay hurdle, and in the "reality" of my 7DTD RP, Stone tools were designed to be used when a more valuable tool wasn't quite needed EX: Need a tree knocked down but its not urgent? Stone ax is cheap and plentiful, our Iron ax is looking a bit worn down...Steel tools (real steel) were horded mostly by craftsman who knew the worth, and used as rarely as possible, to ensure they lasted as long as possible.
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Noctoras
New member
True that. Good idea, bad implementation. No more joy and surprise from looting when the content is as predictable as the sunrise.They wanted to extend the game's stone age, which is a good thing in my opinion.
But of course, TFP being TFP, they once again chose a terrible way to do that(last one was perk level gates).
Really missing the random elements here, those make the game enjoyable and thrilling. If I want a grindfest, I go to work instead of playing. At least I get paid for it there xD
Noctoras
New member
Onarr
New member
Well I do not use it and honestly I do not care if someone does it in SP game. MP is the problem imho. random dude that just started on a server will nerdpole at top of shotgun messiah and boom top tier loot.
I used a wood club with mods for the first 9 days of my current world. Stone age tools are not useless for what they are made for, early game. Early bow and arrow are letting us kill chickens, and can be used on zombies. Arrows are very easy to make so using 4 isnt a problem. I'm looting a ton of stuff at day 11 and we only just started getting iron stuff and low level tier 1 guns in boxes. Early game things don't need to die quickly and easily.
Starting with iron makes no sense as you need a forge to make them, irc some require a workbench.
JaxTeller718
New member
You want true realism your tools and weapons should break after multiple repairs.
Ralathar44
New member
1. Honestly I like the extended early game. Low tier gear matters now instead of something your naked survivor replaces in 2 days and never looks at again. There is an actual consistent and steady progression now instead of huge jumps of progression as you find all your guns and tools within the first 2 weeks.
2. Crafting is now really valuable again. You can now get high quality items via crafting significantly faster than via looting now.
3. Weapon skills and melee are way more valuable now. Since you cannot just rely on the raw power of higher tier ranged weapons from early on now your weapon skills and melee pull alot more weight. It's a good time for it as melee feels better than ever before. Learn how to melee using knife and deep cuts or via using club. Master melee by learning how to use sledgehammers. Spears really shine right now due to their ranged aspect...without making them overly powerful.
4. The Blunderbuss finally shines and has a good place now. I hope they make a proper tier 1 for every ranged weapon. We have the blunderbuss for shotguns and the primitive bow for archery. Now we just need a flintlock or zipgun for pistols, an arquebus for snipers, and a Cei-Rigotti or Fedorov Avtoma lookalike for machine guns. I pulled those from a wikipedia article about early automatic rifles.
5. Stone tools of high rarities are actually extremely valuable for those of use who are not skilling into tool smithing skills. Since my agility focused character can only craft @%$*#!ty stone tools finding high level stone tools is actually very useful.
6. I hate realism arguments in a game where I can carry a building in my pocket, grow crops fully within days with literally no maintenance, heal a broken leg in hours, recover from near death in 10 seconds with a couple med kits, our character never sleeps, I never once washed my hands or bathed in game, we never get sick, I have yet to poop in 50 days, etc. Realism is a poor argument when 95% of the unrealistic nonsense in the game is in our favor. But people @%$*#! anytime something unrealistic is not in our favor.
2. Crafting is now really valuable again. You can now get high quality items via crafting significantly faster than via looting now.
3. Weapon skills and melee are way more valuable now. Since you cannot just rely on the raw power of higher tier ranged weapons from early on now your weapon skills and melee pull alot more weight. It's a good time for it as melee feels better than ever before. Learn how to melee using knife and deep cuts or via using club. Master melee by learning how to use sledgehammers. Spears really shine right now due to their ranged aspect...without making them overly powerful.
4. The Blunderbuss finally shines and has a good place now. I hope they make a proper tier 1 for every ranged weapon. We have the blunderbuss for shotguns and the primitive bow for archery. Now we just need a flintlock or zipgun for pistols, an arquebus for snipers, and a Cei-Rigotti or Fedorov Avtoma lookalike for machine guns. I pulled those from a wikipedia article about early automatic rifles.
5. Stone tools of high rarities are actually extremely valuable for those of use who are not skilling into tool smithing skills. Since my agility focused character can only craft @%$*#!ty stone tools finding high level stone tools is actually very useful.
6. I hate realism arguments in a game where I can carry a building in my pocket, grow crops fully within days with literally no maintenance, heal a broken leg in hours, recover from near death in 10 seconds with a couple med kits, our character never sleeps, I never once washed my hands or bathed in game, we never get sick, I have yet to poop in 50 days, etc. Realism is a poor argument when 95% of the unrealistic nonsense in the game is in our favor. But people @%$*#! anytime something unrealistic is not in our favor.
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Onarr
New member
Thats what I meant. Start with iron tools in loot instead of stone. Only Knife I think needs workbench. Btw you can have iron tools on day 1 or 2 anyway, you just pick 1 int perk to get a forge and can craft them immediately. Same applies for weapons - you pick a perk and you can craft iron sledgehammer, baseball bat, iron spear etc. on day one. Even less sense in puting stone items into loot tables.myrkana said:
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RestInPieces
New member
Do not be quick to brush off "realism", because, besides necessary gameplay compromises here and there, the game is utterly realistic at its core (world setting, physics, crafting etc). "Realistic" in games never means that "we just copy real life at its entirety" after all.
-It doesn't have to trample gameplay -- it can complement it (e.g. player needs, injuries, inventory system, crafting).
-It is the game being consistent with its own setting.
Don't get me wrong, I always yelled about how it's a waste, that a game with so much content wasn't exploiting it properly, and I really wanted progression to become more structured because so much of that content wasn't used, either because there was no reason for it to be used, or because the progression was arbitrary. There were many extra reasons progression was inconsistent though -- e.g. terribly balanced lootlists, which is still a problem imo.
But with the world being so reliant on some meta information like the player's GS instead of actual in-game information (zones, POIs), suspension of belief takes a hit and progression becomes predictable and linear. Not to mention that it will push players to control their GS even further. Put in an extreme way (that obviously doesn't do the game justice, but gets the point across), the world feels like an empty canvas with scattered loot chests having standard contents/location, and what surrounds these loot chests or where they are, hardly matters. Allegedly, they will see to making POIs/zones matter more, but for that to happen, spawns/enemy scaling and much more have to be revamped as well.
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Onarr
New member
I admire your composure. Many a person would be angry or at least annoyed, when somebody stole your well earned loot in a cheesy way after you worked hard for it by going through a PoI. Just one question. Do you yourself use nerdpolling or similar tactics to get to loot quickly in order to skip killing zombies?
This stone age mehanic is complete garbage .. its all about the grind grind grind grind & grind all over again ..
Only way to obtain something better early game is to grind ur way thro trader quests, sell some stuff (stone stuff sells poorly ... ) collect some dukes and buy some gun or thing that u need off the trader ..
Lvl 20 + and u slowly are starting to get something different .. lvl30 + is where some actual loot diversity is starting to show up, but till then grind grind grind ..
Doing traders quests early game now feels like one of the booring things ever, always same old pois with same crap in the chests .. only trader reward itself is ok, with some ammo or other stuff ..
When playing on server we were like 3ppl in party lvl 20-30 and 1person joined with lvl 1 or 3 ... it felt that loot slightly decreassed thowards to stone age .. dunno maybe Ima wrong, but if it rly is affecting loot ''gating'' then its a sad way how to implement things ..
Damn go back to the a16 times then, when you could find all the things and weapons in day one but make quality & durability rly low ...
TFP if you rly want to make gameply fun learn a thing or two from Ravenhearst 4.3 (a16) ... (heck might event make a video why it was so great and still is .. )
Only way to obtain something better early game is to grind ur way thro trader quests, sell some stuff (stone stuff sells poorly ... ) collect some dukes and buy some gun or thing that u need off the trader ..
Lvl 20 + and u slowly are starting to get something different .. lvl30 + is where some actual loot diversity is starting to show up, but till then grind grind grind ..
Doing traders quests early game now feels like one of the booring things ever, always same old pois with same crap in the chests .. only trader reward itself is ok, with some ammo or other stuff ..
When playing on server we were like 3ppl in party lvl 20-30 and 1person joined with lvl 1 or 3 ... it felt that loot slightly decreassed thowards to stone age .. dunno maybe Ima wrong, but if it rly is affecting loot ''gating'' then its a sad way how to implement things ..
Damn go back to the a16 times then, when you could find all the things and weapons in day one but make quality & durability rly low ...
TFP if you rly want to make gameply fun learn a thing or two from Ravenhearst 4.3 (a16) ... (heck might event make a video why it was so great and still is .. )