PC So long 19, going back to 16

[Boidster]

Study Lean and Six Sigma

I rolled my eyes so hard three little old ladies showed up for Bingo. A small independent game design company is going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on SS consultants? Whose primary recommendation will be...hire more consultants. The concept of continuous process improvement is fine; Six Sigma is a moneymaker for Six Sigma consultants only. Just like Emergenetics. Corporate VPs love that @%$#.

I'd love to hear how a Six Sigma Black Belt would have decided the perk level for forges needs adjusting. Ow my eyeballs again. GO AWAY LADIES THIS IS NOT BINGO NIGHT!

 

[JCrook1028]

I have been attacked constantly while on full health. If they are not supposed to, that is broken.

Wild vultures attack if you are in a vehicle or injured. POI vultures attack regardless once you wake them up. If you have vultures in the wild attacking you on foot and uninjured than you are dealing with a bug. Even wandering horde vultures follow the wild vulture rules. They will circle overhead and not attack.

 

[Ramethzer0]

Tip to developers, read the forum post and stop going off on a tangent. 

Having known (and empathized with) a few gaming developers in my past, wait till you see their Hot Tip checklist for players on what not to do in the forums when complaining about how developers have "ruined" their own game. 

Hot Tip for you:  Aren't you glad that you can still EVEN ACCESS a16?  I mean.. that's pretty noteworthy considering you can't do that with the majority of other games.   This is coming from someone whom enjoys and has both versions downloaded

 

[Samcharles]

Six Sigma is most helpful in manufacturing environments. It's not really worth it for TFP.

The forge..I usually have it by the third week easily by unlocking it with the perk. I could have it sooner but I choose to put point in other things first. Not sure why you are having so much trouble acquiring it.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

 Not sure why you are having so much trouble acquiring it.

He did not even read the skill descriptions and just assumed they were the same as in A16. Also iirc back then you couldn't learn the forge by skills, you needed to find the receipe. So he obviously quick started A19, hasn't found a forge receipe within the first days/week and then rage quitted, not even noticing that he could have had a forge by day 1.

Not to mention that that also could have happened in A16. I also had really bad starts in older alphas, where i just have not found the receipe as early as i wanted to.

 

[RipClaw]

Not to mention that that also could have happened in A16. I also had really bad starts in older alphas, where i just have not found the receipe as early as i wanted to.

In A16 no schematic was needed to build the forge. The last time you needed a book to build a forge was AFAIK Alpha 12.
 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

In A16 no schematic was needed to build the forge. The last time you needed a book to build a forge was AFAIK Alpha 12.

I first started with A15, and iirc there was a time where you couldn't simply skill it. I didn't check it, maybe my memory is wrong anyway.

 

[meganoth]

 (Also they path around spikes most of the time)

You have to put spike traps into the ground, i.e. dig one block deep holes and put them in there (to be flush with the ground). Then the zombies treat them as ground and do not avoid them. Something which is sadly not telegraphed by their looks but is pretty essential if you want to use them effectively

 

[Liesel Weppen]

You have to put spike traps into the ground, i.e. dig one block deep holes and put them in there (to be flush with the ground). Then the zombies treat them as ground and do not avoid them.

Huh, never heared of that. Haven't payed that much attention to it, but in some provious game we had "sunken" spikes and i didn't notice any effect. Once there was a free way through all Zs go this way. In my case the spike-trench was player built with concrete. Maybe it only works on "natural" soil?

Anyway sounds more like a bug, and for me therfore is considered cheesing.

 

[Kalen]

Huh, never heared of that. Haven't payed that much attention to it, but in some provious game we had "sunken" spikes and i didn't notice any effect. Once there was a free way through all Zs go this way. In my case the spike-trench was player built with concrete. Maybe it only works on "natural" soil?

Anyway sounds more like a bug, and for me therfore is considered cheesing.

Its because zombies see spikes (and other traps) as a block.  So their pathing rules take them around them... because they try to stay on the same elevation that you are.   By submerging them, the zombies will walk over them, because they see that as staying on the same elevation as you.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Still wierd and more like a bug. So it's still "abusing" like building a kill korridor.

 

[Kalen]

Still wierd and more like a bug. So it's still "abusing" like building a kill korridor.

According to faatal, it's intended behavior.  So not a bug.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

According to faatal, it's intended behavior.  So not a bug.

Ah, yes, intended behaviour is comprehensible because it is intended.

Maybe fataal is telling the current state and say that it is somehow "accepted" (in other words "won't be fixed (soon)"), but the outcome is still stupid. 

Zombies avoiding elevated spikes is a "feature", zombies running into whatever just because it is on the same ground level is for sure a lack of the pathing algorithm. Calling it "intended" is.... <no words>. If you call it intended, known, accepted or bug.... doesn't change anything with that.

I'd be interested in a reason WHY this is "intended"?

 

[Roland]

'd be interested in a reason WHY this is "intended"?

Because the developer made it work that way on purpose and after his attention was drawn to it he decided to keep it that way and informed us he won’t be changing it ergo “intended”.

the reason could be technical limitations or preference. 
 

If you can accept that zombies would just walk into a spike not realizing that it is something in front of it then you should be able to accept that zombies would walk over it thinking it was something stable. Both are dumb behaviors that a player would exploit so it really doesn’t matter.   

 

[katarynna]

Zombies avoiding elevated spikes is a "feature", zombies running into whatever just because it is on the same ground level is for sure a lack of the pathing algorithm.

Zombies are not avoiding elevated spikes. Zombies are pathing around obstacles in their way.

A spike trap placed on the ground is treated by zombies just as a flagstone block placed on the ground. If there is open space to the sides, they go around it.

A spike trap sunk one block down into the ground is treated by zombies just like the ground is. They walk over it because it is not an obstacle in their path.

It is intended that zombies path around obstacles when they can. It is not intended that they see a spike trap sunk one block down so that it is level with the ground, recognize that it is a trap that will damage them, and therefore avoid it.

 

[RipClaw]

I'd be interested in a reason WHY this is "intended"?

Fataal explained it this way that the AI is looking for the most cost effective way. Every action of the zombie is seen as costs and this includes jumping.

Because the spikes are considered as blocks and the zombies have to jump up to path over the spikes they try to avoid this if there is a cheaper way.

But this also works the other way round. If you place the spikes flush with the ground they will always path over the spikes if possible. They will avoid the spots without spikes.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

and after his attention was drawn to it he decided to keep it that way and informed us he won’t be changing it ergo “intended”.

Yeah "intended". Oh i never noticed that, but yes, it was intended. For Sure!

If you can accept that zombies would just walk into a spike not realizing that it is something in front of it then you should be able to accept that zombies would walk over it thinking it was something stable. Both are dumb behaviors that a player would exploit so it really doesn’t matter.   

Either zombies are stupid and walk into spikes, never the less they are on even ground or not, or they are intelligent enough and avoid spikes and also recognize lower spikes.

That is neither "intended" nor understandable. That is simply a BUG or maybe with good will an acccepted "fault" in the alogrithm.

There is some kind of "usability". We are talking about technical details here obviously, but the common player doesn't care for that. Maybe he discovers this behaviour by accident, but it is anything else then understandable, and that is in general bad game design.

Knowing that specific technical detail and using it, therfore is in best opinion cheesing. Again, just like building kill korridors.

In a well balanced game, without reading forums about how detailed mechanics work, i should be able to draw conclusions about how the enemy "works". Does he choose a low-reistance path, does he come straigth from random directions? Does he respect spikes but ignore autoturrets? Sorry, but lowered spikes being ignored ist just stupid and has nothing to do with the spikes themselfes.

Imho building a trench deeper than 1 blocks would be a good idea because it would traps the Zs into the spikes. But if the "algorithms" primary target is to stay on the same floor level, that will not work also. So Zs will circumvent ignore spikes that are one block lower, but be aware of spike on any other level? Yeah, thats absolutely understandable.... NOT.

Don't missunderstand me. I'm fine with (known) bugs, currently accepted "@%$#ed" behaviour, because it is like it is currently, but when calling such things "intended" this guy is either @%$#ed, force by the marketing to say so, or i'd like to slap him with with a lvl6 skills-maxed-out steelclub directly into the head.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

That's just plain untrue. I do my hordes out on the street with spikes lining each side of the road and you can clearly watch the spawn points rotate to all 4 sides as the night goes on.

might be because you are on a flat terrain or something... I can just tell what I have experienced. In A18 it was 100% the case and in my limited time with A19 i can tell that at least my one base only got damaged from one side (even though it was the same distance in each direction) and all Z's were clumped on one spot.


About the spikes: No matter if intended or not, it shouldnt be. It is unintuitive, it doesnt look right (like the upside down spikeslogs) and I feel like Z's shouldnt see traps as Blocks and just walk right into them. Avoiding traps means that you need a hallway to FORCE them through traps (or make like a 1 deep trench that looks weird. Does it at least work in the way of slowing them down the right amount?)

I have loved very very many things Fataal did. Of all the Fun Pimps, he is definatly my favourite. Always trying to answer questions as best as he can and more or less always beeing very polite even on multiple repeated questions.
But this is flatout a mistake in my eyes. It has no ingame benefit. It might have a coding benefit. But simply looking at the ingame effect, it is worse in basicially every way.

 

[Roland]

In a well balanced game, without reading forums about how detailed mechanics work, i should be able to draw conclusions about how the enemy "works".

You absolutely CAN notice the behavior and draw conclusions. I did without reading a thing. It happened by accident but I noticed it. I dug a trench three blocks deep and put spikes in the bottom. I accidentally placed one spike a couple of blocks too high so it was flush with the ground. On hordenight they all ran around to that spot to cross the trench until the spike broke. Then I knew. 

Imho building a trench deeper than 1 blocks would be a good idea because it would traps the Zs into the spikes.

See? It is intuitive. You’re absolutely right. Dig a trench deeper and fill it all the way up with spikes until it is flush and watch the results. It’s pretty nice. 
 

Don't missunderstand me. I'm fine with (known) bugs, currently accepted "@%$#ed" behaviour, because it is like it is currently, but when calling such things "intended" this guy is either @%$#ed, force by the marketing to say so, or i'd like to slap him with with a lvl6 skills-maxed-out steelclub directly into the head.

You want to get caught up in semantics be my guest. Call it a bug if you want. It is part of the intended pathing system and a natural consequence of how these zombies interact with the world. TFP is happy with it. If it makes you feel better to believe they secretly know it’s a bug but don’t want to spin it that way for marketing then by all means continue. Just so we all know it isn’t changing. 

or make like a 1 deep trench that looks weird.

Looking weird is your whole basis for not liking it and that is purely subjective. My trenches filled with spikes look badass. 
 

We want the zombies to blunder into the spikes. That is where we all agree. Whether they blunder into them on the side or blunder into them from above really makes no functional difference other than that some people thinks it looks weird one way. 
 

Once I noticed how the zombies behaved toward spikes it gave rise to several ideas that were fun to try out and I love using spikes in combination with trenches. In fact, there is a way to  use them effectively without trenches at all but going by the same principle that zombies think of them as a block like any other block for pathing purposes. 

 

[Kalen]

In fact, there is a way to  use them effectively without trenches at all but going by the same principle that zombies think of them as a block like any other block for pathing purposes. 

Yup, just put ramps in front of them!