PC So long 19, going back to 16

[Roland]

Yup, just put ramps in front of them! 

I just want to point out that figuring that out is pretty easy once you start using spikes as they are intended within the pathing system. You wouldn’t need to be told this on the forums even though Kalen spilled the beans. 
 

Building a staircase out of spikes against the wall of your base up to the top where you are standing is also some sweet bait that can draw zombies to a particular location you want them to go. Arranging a field of spikes with multiple ways up the “stairway” will ensure almost every spike getting hit until the staircase itself is destroyed ending that pathway. It is quite fun to design an effective meat grinder like that. 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

You absolutely CAN notice the behavior and draw conclusions. I did without reading a thing.

Yes people that don't look for somehow logical behaviour, but people that investigate further and are not looking for "logical" behavoiur but also looking for exploits of course might recognize it.

Just like people taking a closer look are able to remove the DRM checks and spread illegal copies of the game... but i know, this is "intended". If you look close enough, even if it is not logical, it works, so "intended".

See? It is intuitive. You’re absolutely right. Dig a trench deeper and fill it all the way up with spikes until it is flush and watch the results. It’s pretty nice.

Hell no! If i dig a trench do trap zombies in, i'd never fill it up to the top with spikes. That is exactly what i meant, it's absolutely @%$#ed. From what i know from games, i'd probably expect that they might "glitch" over more quickly if the trench ist filled up with spikes. But that is also a bug or bad game design. What everybody normal thinking person wants, is a trench where zombies fall into and never come out again, because it is a f*** trench. A filled up with spikes trench doesn't fullfill that, and a trench with lowered spikes will also not work as of the current "logic" zombies will walk around it instead of falling into it.

You want to get caught up in semantics be my guest. Call it a bug if you want. It is part of the intended pathing system and a natural consequence of how these zombies interact with the world.

Yeah, fool me by calling it "intended". I don't have a problem with a bug, or maybe even some unintended behaviour discorvered nobody thought of before. But if THIS is really intended i either doubt in TFP intelligenze, or you hardly trying to fool me. If it is not intended but happend, fine, then just say it like that. But don't keep your customers for stupid by claiming it was intended. How damn stupid do you think people are?

TFP is happy with it. If it makes you feel better to believe they secretly know it’s a bug but don’t want to spin it that way for marketing then by all means continue. Just so we all know it isn’t changing. 

If TFP REALLY thinks this is intended (if you lie hard enough to your self, in the end you'll really believe your own lies), i lost all my hope in them, because then calling them @%$#ed would still be to positive. If they call it "intended" just to silence people, well then they are fooling me. Either way... both bad. I'm still missing a reasonable explanation why the heck it is this way, and if it should be intutive/logical/understandable no further explanation would be needed at all.

I'm pretty sure this was not intended at all. Those people who implemented the pathfinding algorithm "accidentially" put the "stay on same height" above every "check for a trap" decision and didn't even notice that side effect of having spikes lowered in a trench. There was no intention at all. It was just a case nobody thought of. But once you noticed it, it has to be sold as "intended".

Maybe a bug, unintended bahaviour, an unepected side effect or whatever, but then at least be so honest and don't call it "InTeNdEd"!!!11elf

 

[Kalen]

If TFP REALLY thinks this is intended

Yes, it is intended.... zombies don't "check for a trap" they path based on the cost to move from point A to point B.  As far as I know zombies have never known what is or isn't a trap.  Nor should they, IMO.

 

[th3s0n1c]

I do still miss a game in my playlist that gives me my "horrific crouching in the corner and hoping the Horde will die on spikes" moment..

IM NOT ALONE!!!

My friends (that started playing on A18) crack up everytime I tell them my experiences with A16 about acting like a child covering itself under the blankets and hoping everything will be ok, despite all the destruction and howlings outside ROFL.

And I think you were talking about A16 in the middle of your post and accidentally typed A19 twice when comparing them.

 

[Z-B]

Either zombies are stupid and walk into spikes, never the less they are on even ground or not, or they are intelligent enough and avoid spikes and also recognize lower spikes.

I don't understand why it's so hard for you to believe that zombies who are driven almost exclusively by their "hunger" and NOT by their sense of self preservation don't differentiate between a set of spikes or any other block.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

In A16 no schematic was needed to build the forge. The last time you needed a book to build a forge was AFAIK Alpha 12.
 

Oh my. The "Forge ahead" book . I remember games where we couldn´t find it for 3 or even 4 weeks.

 

[Roland]

I'm pretty sure this was not intended at all. Those people who implemented the pathfinding algorithm "accidentially" put the "stay on same height" above every "check for a trap" decision and didn't even notice that side effect of having spikes lowered in a trench. There was no intention at all. It was just a case nobody thought of. But once you noticed it, it has to be sold as "intended".

So the reason I discovered it myself and not by reading about it here, it is because I was playing with the pathing months before A17 was released. I sent a video of my findings to faatal and he said that it was working as intended. A17 was under wraps for 1.5 years and at some point during that time the pathing was implemented and TFP staff were plying with it. 
 

So knowing about the behavior before launch and still launching with it and having it survive further tweaks in A18 and A19 I can safely tell you it is intended intended and not “intended”. 
 

Sorry you are so bent out of shape about this issue. I’m not sure why THIS would cause you to lose all faith in TFP. 
 

The behavior is fun and playable and makes sense to me. I can see it doesn’t to you but neither of us are everyone and if it is a fun and viable design for many as well as sanctioned by TFP then you’re just in the wrong side of this one. Sorry. 
 

I’m on the wrong side of item degradation and a few other things if it makes you feel better. 

 

[meganoth]

If the spike trap would just look different, more massive, for example a flagstoneblock with broken glass sticking out of its sides you would immediately see how it is supposed to work. But the spike traps look is fantastic and iconic, it just gives you the wrong impression

 

[alanea]

Ah, yes, intended behaviour is comprehensible because it is intended.

Maybe fataal is telling the current state and say that it is somehow "accepted" (in other words "won't be fixed (soon)"), but the outcome is still stupid. 

Zombies avoiding elevated spikes is a "feature", zombies running into whatever just because it is on the same ground level is for sure a lack of the pathing algorithm. Calling it "intended" is.... <no words>. If you call it intended, known, accepted or bug.... doesn't change anything with that.

I'd be interested in a reason WHY this is "intended"?

developer decides what  what should software do and how it should do such thing he and  only he decides whats norm

"A software bug is an error, flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways."

basically if software does something other than developer wanted its a bug  if its working as he decided and  then made it work that way ... then it simply cannot be bug ... if you accept  something or not is your problem

but as already explained whole world is made from blocks ... every block in game is atleast 1x1x1 object for its basically same  it doesnt matter if you put  in  block .. forge   1/8 block  or plate ... from technical side its full  block with changed model and collision thats why zombie wont recognize any block in 1 deep hole ...   for game its flat ground (and also reason why we struggle with zombies trying to walk over blocks with small collision model .. that allow them fall through)

does it make sense that zombies rush into spikes ?  not rly  but if they avoided spikes  they would be  90% useless

might be because you are on a flat terrain or something... I can just tell what I have experienced. In A18 it was 100% the case and in my limited time with A19 i can tell that at least my one base only got damaged from one side (even though it was the same distance in each direction) and all Z's were clumped on one spot.

if you dont have  "valid entrance"(doors ignored by pathfinding as block) zombies trying to find way to punch  through  easiest way to reach you  they all  group up and  focus on weak spot even if you make wall and   damage a little one  block ... they will all go after that block .. blood moon  "spawning side" constantly changes .. but zombies follow same ai

About the spikes: No matter if intended or not, it shouldnt be. It is unintuitive, it doesnt look right (like the upside down spikeslogs) and I feel like Z's shouldnt see traps as Blocks and just walk right into them. Avoiding traps means that you need a hallway to FORCE them through traps (or make like a 1 deep trench that looks weird. Does it at least work in the way of slowing them down the right amount?)

I have loved very very many things Fataal did. Of all the Fun Pimps, he is definatly my favourite. Always trying to answer questions as best as he can and more or less always beeing very polite even on multiple repeated questions.
But this is flatout a mistake in my eyes. It has no ingame benefit. It might have a coding benefit. But simply looking at the ingame effect, it is worse in basicially every way.

upside down spikelogs are simply bug  or better said inconsistence in mechanic ..... because zombie cannot fall  into block from flat side ...= damage block  but still get slowed  because its " touching block" by standing next to it = gets slowed  ... sure they could fix it later  but funny pimps clearly disliked log spikes overall and give us equally awesomebetter looking and bug free iron spikes instead

Hell no! If i dig a trench do trap zombies in, i'd never fill it up to the top with spikes. That is exactly what i meant, it's absolutely @%$#ed. From what i know from games, i'd probably expect that they might "glitch" over more quickly if the trench ist filled up with spikes. But that is also a bug or bad game design. What everybody normal thinking person wants, is a trench where zombies fall into and never come out again, because it is a f*** trench. A filled up with spikes trench doesn't fullfill that, and a trench with lowered spikes will also not work as of the current "logic" zombies will walk around it instead of falling into it.

well developers decided killing zombies by simple trench is far too easy and bulletproof with no upkeep.. so they capped hp loss to 1/3 making spikes must ....because zombies could fall in  but would dig and collapse your base

Yeah, fool me by calling it "intended". I don't have a problem with a bug, or maybe even some unintended behaviour discorvered nobody thought of before. But if THIS is really intended i either doubt in TFP intelligenze, or you hardly trying to fool me. If it is not intended but happend, fine, then just say it like that. But don't keep your customers for stupid by claiming it was intended. How damn stupid do you think people are?

so what should zombies do ? ....  now they walk over flat ground or  1 deep hole .... avoid deeper holes because they cant "climb up on other side to continue their path"

If TFP REALLY thinks this is intended (if you lie hard enough to your self, in the end you'll really believe your own lies), i lost all my hope in them, because then calling them @%$#ed would still be to positive. If they call it "intended" just to silence people, well then they are fooling me. Either way... both bad. I'm still missing a reasonable explanation why the heck it is this way, and if it should be intutive/logical/understandable no further explanation would be needed at all.

rrfp doesnt think whats intended ... tfp directly decides whats intended  ,,, when they plan and realize something to work in specific way its simply intended if it worked  different than they wanted .. its unntended = bug

I'm pretty sure this was not intended at all. Those people who implemented the pathfinding algorithm "accidentially" put the "stay on same height" above every "check for a trap" decision and didn't even notice that side effect of having spikes lowered in a trench. There was no intention at all. It was just a case nobody thought of. But once you noticed it, it has to be sold as "intended".

Maybe a bug, unintended bahaviour, an unepected side effect or whatever, but then at least be so honest and don't call it "InTeNdEd"!!!11elf

 maybe they decided there will be no "check for a trap" at all  opposite would be insane ... traps would be avoided= useless .. and if youw alled everything they would break in  through one trap and then all path to bthis breach to avoid traps lol

 

[Solomon]

No it's at Advanced Engineering level 1.

My bad, thanks for correcting.

 

[Vanetooth]

It is curious that the spikes are treated like a block, but from my experiences the barbed wire isn't? Why wouldn't they both be treated the same, since you can walk through both. I like having trenches full of spikes, but I do believe placing spikes on the surface should work as well, sure it's less efficient but in the early game being able to just slap down some "oh s**t!" spikes would be nice. I know the game isn't going for realism, but if a zombie truly is braindead wouldn't it just walk towards it's target, regardless of what's in it's way?

 

[Kalen]

It is curious that the spikes are treated like a block, but from my experiences the barbed wire isn't? Why wouldn't they both be treated the same, since you can walk through both. I like having trenches full of spikes, but I do believe placing spikes on the surface should work as well, sure it's less efficient but in the early game being able to just slap down some "oh s**t!" spikes would be nice. I know the game isn't going for realism, but if a zombie truly is braindead wouldn't it just walk towards it's target, regardless of what's in it's way?

Zombies see spikes in a similar way that they see blocks.   So ask yourself what you would expect if you dropped a block?   Would you expect the zombie to walk around it or try and walk through it?

 

[Vanetooth]

That's what I find weird, why would they perceive them as blocks when you can't actually stand on spikes. You can pass through barbed wire and spikes, yet they treat spikes like blocks and not barbed wire? My opinion, but spikes shouldn't be considered as blocks. You can't stand on them, so why would they see them as an obstacle?

 

[meganoth]

well developers decided killing zombies by simple trench is far too easy and bulletproof with no upkeep.. so they capped hp loss to 1/3 making spikes must ....because zombies could fall in  but would dig and collapse your base

You don't need spikes. Just make an exit path for the zombie to walk out again and except for the occasional enraged zombie all still alive will try to walk out.

I have such a pit in my current horde base where I push them into the pit with a melee turrets (plural because it is a co-op game). I made the pit about 10 blocks deep only so the exit path wasn't too long and made the side to the base out of concrete because a few zombies enrage. Also I have a ledge to look into the pit from time to time, but it is seldom neccessary to intervene, the damage from the fall actually kills some zombies and most walk out for another round in front of our guns and top defenses. Later I added electric fences and dart traps to the exit so that even glowies usually die while trying to exit the pit.

It is curious that the spikes are treated like a block, but from my experiences the barbed wire isn't? Why wouldn't they both be treated the same, since you can walk through both. I like having trenches full of spikes, but I do believe placing spikes on the surface should work as well, sure it's less efficient but in the early game being able to just slap down some "oh s**t!" spikes would be nice. I know the game isn't going for realism, but if a zombie truly is braindead wouldn't it just walk towards it's target, regardless of what's in it's way?

AFAIK barbed wire is treated as a block as well (even more jarring if you look at it).  I usually put them into trenches around the horde base and they get damaged or even removed everywhere, not only in a single spot.

The notion that they would walk into a highly visible trap like a spike trap is VERY "unrealistic". Braindead zombies (in any movie I have ever seen) are intelligent enough to go through doors instead of walking into a wall. So they CAN recognize matter blocking their way like a dog or an insect can. A spike trap as depicted in the game would be seen as a thingy blocking your way by any human-sized creature with the intelligence to recognize blocking matter.

 

[Vanetooth]

In World War Z they are seen just throwing their bodies at people, be it through fences, doors or even vehicles(like when they tipped the bus over or scaled the wall). In the Walking Dead they are seen just piling up against walls and spikes, literally a few scenes where they literally just walk into a spike and get impaled trying to eat people. Only other zombie movie I have seen was I Am Legend and there weren't many moments where he had primitive traps like spikes, he instead had explosives, which they did not avoid. Not sure which movies you have seen, but I am now intrigued.

Edit: Also just remembered the scene in WWZ where they found zekes just stuck in barbed wire fences all over the place.

 

[Kalen]

That's what I find weird, why would they perceive them as blocks when you can't actually stand on spikes. You can pass through barbed wire and spikes, yet they treat spikes like blocks and not barbed wire? My opinion, but spikes shouldn't be considered as blocks. You can't stand on them, so why would they see them as an obstacle?

I would guess they're treated as blocks because they are a visible obstacle.  

 

[meganoth]

In World War Z they are seen just throwing their bodies at people, be it through fences, doors or even vehicles(like when they tipped the bus over or scaled the wall). In the Walking Dead they are seen just piling up against walls and spikes, literally a few scenes where they literally just walk into a spike and get impaled trying to eat people. Only other zombie movie I have seen was I Am Legend and there weren't many moments where he had primitive traps like spikes, he instead had explosives, which they did not avoid. Not sure which movies you have seen, but I am now intrigued.

Edit: Also just remembered the scene in WWZ where they found zekes just stuck in barbed wire fences all over the place.

Mmmh, there is a good case to be made for zombies in most movies only being able to smell and hear. They would sense doors by the smell or sound coming out of it.

In WWZ especially you could argue that the zombies are going by smell or sounds for most of the movie I think. But still the zeds seemed to know where the doors are even to hermetically sealed rooms if I remember the last confrontation in the lab correctly.

If there is no way to the living like when there is just a wall around jerusalem they pile onto walls and fences, that is true for 7D2D as well, not an indication whether they see doors or not.

I'm not talking about scenes with zombies in fences. If they can see anything in such a movie my argument goes they could also see (non-hidden massive) traps as objects and walk around them as well (even if their sight is heavily reduced). But I would have to watch lots of movies again to make certain the zombie couldn't just smell or hear. If anyone remembers a scene where a zombie sees a guy in >100 meters distance immediately that would help. I know one from a Romero movie, but he was the intelligent zombie leader. I know lots from humorous zombie movies but they probably don't count.

Even if we say zombies only smell or hear in most movies (and interpret that to find openings), my less stringent argument is that this is only possible for an intelligent being. It isn't a stretch to assume zombies can see as well, especially in a game where they obviously fix their gaze on you.

 

[meganoth]

That's what I find weird, why would they perceive them as blocks when you can't actually stand on spikes. You can pass through barbed wire and spikes, yet they treat spikes like blocks and not barbed wire? My opinion, but spikes shouldn't be considered as blocks. You can't stand on them, so why would they see them as an obstacle?

Sorry, but you actually can stand on spikes.

I made a fast test right now: Set a spike trap on the ground beside a wood block and stepped on it. While the trap was hurting me I was standing slightly lower than on the wood block but still about 4/5th of a block above ground. When the spike trap was destroyed I fell down the rest of the way to the street.

 

[Vanetooth]

That's interesting, I haven't personally tried but I just assumed you fell through them, since I consistently have zombies at the bottom of my spike trenches despite the top layer being intact. Maybe  they just glitched down, not too sure as I haven't been looking too closely. As for the zombies being able to see, thinking about it now, it makes sense that they can. In I Am Legend they clearly can see the guy through the glass. As for WWZ you have a point, that should have been air tight, yet somehow the zeke knew where the door was, my best guess is that either they can see, or the zeke could just smell where the guy had been? I imagine if they have hyper senses of hearing and scent that they could potentially tell where you have been, kinda like a hound follows a trail. The guy had to touch the keypad to open the door and stood there for a fair bit. Also if I remember correctly the zombie was already chasing him and the door just closed behind the human mid pursuit, so it is also likely that the zombie was just following him and then started running into the door. Not too sure tho, been a while since I've seen the movies.

 

[Ramethzer0]

Something I learned a long time ago when it came to self awareness.  I hate to bring philosophy to a flame war, and I expect to get ignored, but.. for those that might appreciate:

(Paraphrasing) Mark Twain said something to the effect that those that feel the desire to complain have a mountain of reasons to choose from.

So, you CAN in fact live with a skeptical eye upon everything, but the moment you let it become the only lens you look at things with, then you become a hammer and every problem that arises starts to look like nails.  I dont care if its and intended feature or if it wasn't.  Up until shortly after this thread, I stopped using spikes (and even barb wire) altogether.  Missing neither of these things didn't break the game for me.

I guess what im leading up to is, take responsibility for your own brand of pessimism.   The world owes you nothing.  It was here long before you were.