PC Smart vs Dumb Zombies?
- Thread starter Roland
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Damocles
New member
So many games have dumb enemies.
Easy to cheeze opponents. The game gets boring if there are no surprises.
So I rather have them have unrealistically good pathfinding, than a sub-par one, that can be tricked too easily.
Its way more scary, if the player does not know if an enemy manages to follow him or pop up from an unexpected sideway .. without the game cheating to do so.
Nevertheless ,the game could still have different "intelligence grades" of opponents.
With some being brute dumb enemies (homing in a straight path).
While others are sneaky and can find paths perfectly. (also applicable to npc-bandits if there will be any in the future)
Easy to cheeze opponents. The game gets boring if there are no surprises.
So I rather have them have unrealistically good pathfinding, than a sub-par one, that can be tricked too easily.
Its way more scary, if the player does not know if an enemy manages to follow him or pop up from an unexpected sideway .. without the game cheating to do so.
Nevertheless ,the game could still have different "intelligence grades" of opponents.
With some being brute dumb enemies (homing in a straight path).
While others are sneaky and can find paths perfectly. (also applicable to npc-bandits if there will be any in the future)
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OzHawkeye
Community Moderator
I voted Pre-A17 behaviour.
Bandits I can see being smart. Zombies ought to be (or return to being) dumb.
Hopefully in A18, Bandits inherit zombies current AI.
The primary threat from zombies ought to be their sheer numbers, not their omniscient knowledge of the map I reckon.
Bandits I can see being smart. Zombies ought to be (or return to being) dumb.
Hopefully in A18, Bandits inherit zombies current AI.
The primary threat from zombies ought to be their sheer numbers, not their omniscient knowledge of the map I reckon.
Odetta
Tester
Way better now, but needs to be far more random. Anything that's predictable is too easy to game.
Would be awesome if every zombie had a chance to be a spider, exploder, and the player not know it just by looking at them.
Varying stats such as hit points, run speed, and get up speed would also be nice.
Would be awesome if every zombie had a chance to be a spider, exploder, and the player not know it just by looking at them.
Varying stats such as hit points, run speed, and get up speed would also be nice.
AtomicUs5000
New member
I prefer smarter zombies over dumb zombies.
Dumb zombies would run in circles, dig tunnels through boulders overnight for no reason, sometimes would never attack at all, or would sometimes lose interest in you and path somewhere else.
The smarter zombies do not do all of the above, but have a new set of problems. They are very predictable and once you know how their AI behaves, you can easily use that to your advantage. In a way, this actually adds more of a tower defense element, because typically in those games, enemies take the same paths over and over and you simply defend those paths. In general though, especially in this three-dimensional game, it is more fun to have zombies attack from many directions. In the end, I still will take this over dumb zombies any day.
The smart zombies just need more work to make them less predictable.... which I know isn't a problem because they are working on it.
What I hope for is a few builds that focus on it, so the players can attempt to outsmart the zombies, find any weaknesses, find any exploits, and report back for suggested improvements.
Dumb zombies would run in circles, dig tunnels through boulders overnight for no reason, sometimes would never attack at all, or would sometimes lose interest in you and path somewhere else.
The smarter zombies do not do all of the above, but have a new set of problems. They are very predictable and once you know how their AI behaves, you can easily use that to your advantage. In a way, this actually adds more of a tower defense element, because typically in those games, enemies take the same paths over and over and you simply defend those paths. In general though, especially in this three-dimensional game, it is more fun to have zombies attack from many directions. In the end, I still will take this over dumb zombies any day.
The smart zombies just need more work to make them less predictable.... which I know isn't a problem because they are working on it.
What I hope for is a few builds that focus on it, so the players can attempt to outsmart the zombies, find any weaknesses, find any exploits, and report back for suggested improvements.
Definitely dumb zombies. They are *zombies* for crying out loud, not robots. The scary thing about zombies has never been their intelligence but their sheer numbers and their relentlessness. I would like to see them even dumber than A16 tbh, more like the Walking Dead or Project Zomboid. Instead of having tunnel boring demolition machines with the structural knowledge of a master engineer we should have large numbers of stupid, slow shamblers that pile up outside our forts and overcome our defenses through dumb luck and attrition. Going outside should be scary because of the potential for being cornered or attracting a large horde. As part of this I would also remove any silly "zombie" animals or supernatural nonsense like direwolves. Real zombies.
FileMachete
New member
You're a sneaky pollster Roland 
But I applied pure, dare I say it?, _mathematical_ knowledge to the slippery slope. Have to go w the old Z's. Based only on what I factually know at this moment.
Combo of both and a sprinkle of magic dust is what I'm hoping for though, heh.
Voted Old since I could build a base to melee them. I really don't like the whole 'On Top Of A Tower' in tower defense atm.
But I applied pure, dare I say it?, _mathematical_ knowledge to the slippery slope. Have to go w the old Z's. Based only on what I factually know at this moment.
Combo of both and a sprinkle of magic dust is what I'm hoping for though, heh.
Voted Old since I could build a base to melee them. I really don't like the whole 'On Top Of A Tower' in tower defense atm.
HungryZombie
New member
I'm not going to tell you not to like what you like but there are way more ways to play besides meleeing inside a base and sitting on top of a tower. It's not an either/or situation.You're a sneaky pollster Roland
But I applied pure, dare I say it?, _mathematical_ knowledge to the slippery slope. Have to go w the old Z's. Based only on what I factually know at this moment.
Combo of both and a sprinkle of magic dust is what I'm hoping for though, heh.
Voted Old since I could build a base to melee them. I really don't like the whole 'On Top Of A Tower' in tower defense atm.
Hek Harris
New member
As a licensed POI explorer ... I love their ability to find the best way to put pressure on me. The problem with the hordes of the 7th day will be solved with a dose of randomness in their behavior. So yes, I much prefer their new intelligence (if we can call "intelligence" the fact of going through a door rather than banging in a concrete wall ... If yes, I'm a very clever person.)
Jugginator
Moderator
Pre-17 is what made me quit playing, and I wouldn't have even bothered with A17 if the new AI wasn't here. Old AI you could stand on a tree stump and be perfectly safe lol. But yeah, what Hek said, without the new AI POI buildings would be both boring and annoying, since the old AI was "See player, forget player was there, bash random stuff" Unless it was a base, then the AI was "spin in circles on the ground a few feet in front of walls"
Zombies should be dumb, but even in zombie movies they actually try to break through doors/etc. I don't get this "realistic zombie behavior" argument, zombies are not real, and in the movies they're in they are half-way intelligent.
Base design in A16 was a pathetic bore due to the AI; unless you wanted a base where zombies' AI would break and spin in circles,you had so many parameters to follow on how you were allowed to build as to encourage zombies to at least try to break through. Had a wall with iron bars t oshoot from? Don't stand on it, zombies will try to knock the air underneath you. Only option was to stand behind a wall and stare at it lol
Zombies should be dumb, but even in zombie movies they actually try to break through doors/etc. I don't get this "realistic zombie behavior" argument, zombies are not real, and in the movies they're in they are half-way intelligent.
Base design in A16 was a pathetic bore due to the AI; unless you wanted a base where zombies' AI would break and spin in circles,you had so many parameters to follow on how you were allowed to build as to encourage zombies to at least try to break through. Had a wall with iron bars t oshoot from? Don't stand on it, zombies will try to knock the air underneath you. Only option was to stand behind a wall and stare at it lol
I would prefer dumb over smart assuming you could have a lot more dumb zombies. Either way, the issue is how predictable they are, knowing the exact blocks they are gonna attack isn't very challenging.
I have always thought they should spawn from all directions and target a small zone around the player during bloodmoons, instead of knowing exactly where the player is. Instead of them piling up in one place, all nice and perfect for you to annihilate, they will spread out around your base trying to get in from multiple points at once.
I have always thought they should spawn from all directions and target a small zone around the player during bloodmoons, instead of knowing exactly where the player is. Instead of them piling up in one place, all nice and perfect for you to annihilate, they will spread out around your base trying to get in from multiple points at once.
SnakeWildlife
New member
Voted PRE-A17. I prefer the old AI.
The old Ai felt more be unpredictable and more z-like. Though, i would like the new Ai on the future-planned Humans (then it makes sense for them to be super smart).
Currently the way Zombies navigate through puzzles like psychic labrats with an IQ of 10,000 means that people are just going to come up with (too easily) cheese builds, as seen in many Turret-Defence games where to win, there was only 1 min-max build where if you strayed from that design, you were only making everything worse for yourself or could be deemed a troll by other players. (Dungeon Defenders had this problem)
Zombies right now dig the land at random into a crater planet, even when you are on the surface.
When we had the old AI we would actually lose chunks of our walls and have breaches, resulting in some epic last stands. Now with the new AI...once you have your cheese-maze setup from a 'The Best build' youtube video (coming very soon i imagine, or already done), the original idea of the GAME seems to collapse into a Specificly choreographed dance of tasks to which you have to dance properly or die. I bet speed-runs would become a thing on 7D2D with how it is now.
Most things about your game are randomly generated and happen at random, but when your Ai becomes predictable, the core element of your game collapses. The only issue that remains with both sets of AI, is that there are not enough wandering zombies. Hordes are great, but being able to run around at night, knowing there are no zombies, is something i think you should counter.
Currently when you clear an area of zombies, none spawn unless you have forges going. Why not keep spawning them? An empty world isnt a fun one.
Thats my 2 cents on the whole zombie spawning/behavior thing, but i still feel the old AI was better at breaching and keeping the long-play games fresh. I bet people now can probably complete a 'unbreachable' trap setup in less than 7 days which would last at least 100 days. This kills the game for people who discover that 'cheese-build' which there WILL be because you made the Z's predictable.
To put in perspective, my best memories of 7D2D was this:
4 player team, zombies spawns set to maximum, we had a concrete wall and 3 layers of spikes outside, its day 120something on a horde night and things were getting tough, the horde charge at one of our walls (random side), spikes deal with some of the weaker zombies, but the traps wear down and start to break, a vast pile-up of feral zombies and more start to destroy the concrete and eventually breach, leading to a tight stand off in which we had to fight the horde head on for the last 3 hours of the night, 2 of us with sledgehammers, 1 with a sniper rifle and 1 with the machine gun. The fight covers our garden and we retreat into the house, shooting from windows and slits, the door is breached but we finish them off at the door...3 of us heavily wounded, 2 bones broken, 2 near death experiences, and 3 infections.
If this changes to:
Setup a maze of death traps and watched them all die. Repair/maintain trap setup.
Then honestly i regret to tell you that i just cant find fun in that...more work than fun really.
The old Ai felt more be unpredictable and more z-like. Though, i would like the new Ai on the future-planned Humans (then it makes sense for them to be super smart).
Currently the way Zombies navigate through puzzles like psychic labrats with an IQ of 10,000 means that people are just going to come up with (too easily) cheese builds, as seen in many Turret-Defence games where to win, there was only 1 min-max build where if you strayed from that design, you were only making everything worse for yourself or could be deemed a troll by other players. (Dungeon Defenders had this problem)
Zombies right now dig the land at random into a crater planet, even when you are on the surface.
When we had the old AI we would actually lose chunks of our walls and have breaches, resulting in some epic last stands. Now with the new AI...once you have your cheese-maze setup from a 'The Best build' youtube video (coming very soon i imagine, or already done), the original idea of the GAME seems to collapse into a Specificly choreographed dance of tasks to which you have to dance properly or die. I bet speed-runs would become a thing on 7D2D with how it is now.
Most things about your game are randomly generated and happen at random, but when your Ai becomes predictable, the core element of your game collapses. The only issue that remains with both sets of AI, is that there are not enough wandering zombies. Hordes are great, but being able to run around at night, knowing there are no zombies, is something i think you should counter.
Currently when you clear an area of zombies, none spawn unless you have forges going. Why not keep spawning them? An empty world isnt a fun one.
Thats my 2 cents on the whole zombie spawning/behavior thing, but i still feel the old AI was better at breaching and keeping the long-play games fresh. I bet people now can probably complete a 'unbreachable' trap setup in less than 7 days which would last at least 100 days. This kills the game for people who discover that 'cheese-build' which there WILL be because you made the Z's predictable.
To put in perspective, my best memories of 7D2D was this:
4 player team, zombies spawns set to maximum, we had a concrete wall and 3 layers of spikes outside, its day 120something on a horde night and things were getting tough, the horde charge at one of our walls (random side), spikes deal with some of the weaker zombies, but the traps wear down and start to break, a vast pile-up of feral zombies and more start to destroy the concrete and eventually breach, leading to a tight stand off in which we had to fight the horde head on for the last 3 hours of the night, 2 of us with sledgehammers, 1 with a sniper rifle and 1 with the machine gun. The fight covers our garden and we retreat into the house, shooting from windows and slits, the door is breached but we finish them off at the door...3 of us heavily wounded, 2 bones broken, 2 near death experiences, and 3 infections.
If this changes to:
Setup a maze of death traps and watched them all die. Repair/maintain trap setup.
Then honestly i regret to tell you that i just cant find fun in that...more work than fun really.
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Jugginator
Moderator
What game were you playing? I built a log cabin with heavily-modded spawn rates in A 16 and they didn't even try to attack the walls. They just spun outside. Added a door and some tried to attack it most practiced their ballerina moves. Couldnt defend from up top in order for them to try, had to stand behind the walls on the floor level. I like random attacks but with the new Ai.
Pretty lacking in options on this poll and honestly it comes across as leading.
I wont vote because neither option represents close to my thoughts:
Smarter dumb zombies are better.
By this i mean they dig again, thats a great re-addation to the AI, once thier damage is lowered back to sane levels this change will be overall good.
They have better SI knowladge now and will attack supports, also great.
Both of these things are not additions to the AI, they are exploit fixes.
What is new is zombie pathing: or more specficly that they path around all traps.
This part blows, big time.
Why is there no option for the actaul good fixes in the most recent AI without the silly pathing around traps? Well beyond creating some skewed results to show off.
What are you really asking here?
If the new version that has exploit fixes we have waited years for is better? Of course it is... is the new behaviour (pahing around spikes) better? Hell no, it makes placing them at all pointless.
I wont vote because neither option represents close to my thoughts:
Smarter dumb zombies are better.
By this i mean they dig again, thats a great re-addation to the AI, once thier damage is lowered back to sane levels this change will be overall good.
They have better SI knowladge now and will attack supports, also great.
Both of these things are not additions to the AI, they are exploit fixes.
What is new is zombie pathing: or more specficly that they path around all traps.
This part blows, big time.
Why is there no option for the actaul good fixes in the most recent AI without the silly pathing around traps? Well beyond creating some skewed results to show off.
What are you really asking here?
If the new version that has exploit fixes we have waited years for is better? Of course it is... is the new behaviour (pahing around spikes) better? Hell no, it makes placing them at all pointless.
Xtrakicking
New member
I agree with this post. Most things that zombies do now are very necessary exploit fixes. The way they attack a building according to its SI or the way they path around it to get to you are great additions. However, they're still zombies, and zombies are known to have null self-preservation. They shouldn't actively avoid traps.
OnlyMeiya
New member
I like how it is now, zed are actually some what of a threat but I think there needs to be some tweaking along the way.
The AI will always have the entirety of data at any given time, that being said with how they are now, it is very VERY easy to manipulate their pathing especially when it comes to construction of horde neutralizing bases, the flip side to this is you have to be very careful when looting POI's
at night as a wandering horde spawn can be devastating when they all silently pour into the POI you were in and block you from being able to escape.
The dumb zed were literally no challenge at all, we always played on the highest difficulty and we didn't even sweat BMH as all you had to do was just jump ontop of a POI and you were pretty much safe.
What I think would help is if you have a certain amount of zed going ----> way say 4 or more then the other zeds will consider that pathing "Full"
and seek an alternate route, this will help prevent the currently stale "Tower Defense" manipulation and gives reason to fortify all pathings.