PC let me get this right

Wrong. You’ve fallen into the misconception that just because something is posted by forum members that the devs are somehow influenced against their wills to do it. Faatal, himself, quipped that the only safe place in the game should be the main menu.
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I don't believe that they are being coerced in any way. I thought that they could be convinced and even change their minds with logic and reason by listening to their users. You might have convinced me otherwise.

(I used the digging zombies as an example. This post is not about digging, I know you know this, but making sure.)

At the same time faatal IS interested in seeing all the tactics to fool the AI not so he can counter each and every instance but so he can make design changes to get them to act more naturally. For example, he saw some exploits showing ways to make zombies fall and run around to just fall again. He brainstormed that maybe in A18 zombies might swipe at blocks as they fall eventually destroying the exploitive pathway that the player set up and allowing them to choose a different one not prepared by the player.
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About the AI, I know its in super early stages and that work is just beginning. My point about closing loopholes is that you could see it as fataal vs the internet. Eventually his AI will be destroyed and exploited as it would be impossible to make one that lasts forever. At what point would he say "It's good enough, lets move to the end game" (whatever that is)

I stand by my point of defining what is a game breaking "loophole" and understanding that there are some things that are not worth their time as players will just find "another way".

 
The question I ask is... For whom? - You and your neighbor play the game.

- Both of you know the loophole.

- YOU can skip the loophole and play the game as YOU know it's supposed to be played.

- Are you mad because HE is using the loophole?

- Is this about bragging rights?

This would be a great point if you're coming from a Multiplayer perspective as it would be unbalanced for 2 players to receive the 7 day horde and one of them just cheesing it. After that, the one who cheesed it just attacks the one that had to spend rounds and base defenses. In this case, yes, they would need to fix this ASAP.

Not once did I say I skipped any horde. Not once.

I don't build anything underground anymore, but when I did it was more aesthetics as I liked the cave view.

Always have my 7 day horde base on the ground as i like the challenge of different builds.

My point has nothing to do with digging.

My point is that the TFP need to focus on what they want to do instead of focusing on people that feel like their neighbor is doing better than them because they're "cheating" and not "playing the game like it's supposed to!".

Remember the Gameshark for the consoles? Remember when people used cheats to play Diablo and be immortal? Have you seen people using Aimbot?

People will ALWAYS find a way. If its in a MP environment, it IS a huge problem and NEEDS to be fixed.

If its in SP, again...

WHO GIVES A ♥♥♥♥!?!?
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Yeah! And if you press "L3" in Darksouls 1 you instantly beat the endboss. Its not multiplayer, so you could simply not press 'L3' and have fun that way.

If you kill cows in Witcher 3 and wait a few hours, you get a HUGE amount of money without risks. Don't need to fix that, its just a singleplayer game.

Players need to be protected from optimizing the fun out of the game.

You obviously have not studied gamedesign or even played a lot of games.

You NEED to fix exploits to keep up the investment of the player.

If there are easy, riskfree solutions, the player has no stakes.

Be it Dark Souls, be it Witcher 3, be it Sims or any other game.

If you want to cheat, cheat. But as long as its in the MAIN game, it has to be seen as intentional.

And intentional skipping of big chunks of the game is NOT good gamedesign.

I don't know how you can not see this.

I'm SO happy for you if you have fun exploiting games. But telling others/the devs that you shouldn't fix exploits because you like it and have fun with it... I mean... seriously?

 
I was against attribute gating because it stops early specialization. So we removed attribute gates and hoped the steeper prices of attributes would keep people out of steel for several weeks, but they teamed up and got INT 10 on day 5 or less. Thats like having Tek gear in ark after 5 hours, when it takes literally 6 months to get tek gear in that game if you play casually for 3 hours a day.
Perk gating is best for the game to ensure some delayed gratification and continued challenge. If you get the best gear in the game on day 1 or even day 10, then there is no challenge and the game gets boring very quickly. You might as well just start a new character... and wait why bother you got everything on day 1 again. You guys might as well type CM in and get the stuff you think you deserve on day 1. You could turn the difficulty down too, it has the same effect. But that doesn't work against other players in pvp or give you bragging rights in pve.

There is still great value in getting an attribute to 10 and specializing early game. We're just blocking you from getting the best tech super early because once progression feels stalled out, any game gets boring. Once I got to level 100 in Ark and got the best stuff and couldn't gain any more levels, I quit. I didn't think I would, but I suddenly lost interest. Same thing happens in Fallout at level 40-50 and in Skyrim. Once you get the best gear and hit god status, the reason to play suddenly vanishes for most players.

We can always add an xp slider for those who can't stand not being god can hit end game in 10% of the time. And those who want a long grind can slow it down easily.
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Out of steel for several WEEKS?

how many is several?

Like if its anymore than 3 in game weeks thats a massive time/grind for no damn reason. We get that you want to slow the game down but thats excessive and making it that way by default just makes everyone edit it.

 
I do the crafting mostly and was kinda miffed that the Workbench was gated to lvl25 but I can get the chem station..... Ok, I'm rolling with it.

 
Interesting, but then these specific horde night zombies have superhuman ability to detect you 50 meters below ground. That's a bit of a stretch for anyone's imagination. If you want to have them stand around until the people come out of their hole, fine, but to just start digging down is a bit much.
above ground, sure, sound could be argued to draw them. Thus the battle begins as the horde shows up.

What's the reasoning for them digging down 50 meters to wreck a player when they should be safe?

I think that's the logic people are having trouble with.

and yes please all you people that get triggered by "realism" "it's a game" blah blah, please leave it alone, I'd like a sensible answer from the moderator and or the devs.

I never made underground bases to hide from the horde, but I don't see why people couldn't if they didn't want to. As other's mentioned, you could have made it more impossible because you would need ventilation to survive, make it so they have more work to do to protect themselves that way. A fire that far underground requires proper ventilation.
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I wasn't commenting on the reasoning behind digging zombies or what their motivation is or whether the current implementation is good or bad. I was simply refuting the idea that they were implemented because people on the forum posted that people who go underground should be punished. Maybe Random doesn't believe that either but it gets posted quite a bit by enough different people that it is hard to deny that there is some sort of groupthink out there that the devs make decisions based on some players hating the way another group of players plays the game. That ain't so.

As to your questions, I can only assume that as time goes on and faatal works on the code issues will get resolved and a balance the developers and some percentage of the player base will be happy with.

 
I wasn't commenting on the reasoning behind digging zombies or what their motivation is or whether the current implementation is good or bad. I was simply refuting the idea that they were implemented because people on the forum posted that people who go underground should be punished. Maybe Random doesn't believe that either but it gets posted quite a bit by enough different people that it is hard to deny that there is some sort of groupthink out there that the devs make decisions based on some players hating the way another group of players plays the game. That ain't so.
As to your questions, I can only assume that as time goes on and faatal works on the code issues will get resolved and a balance the developers and some percentage of the player base will be happy with.
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Thanks for replying Roland.

It would be nice though, to find out why Fataal (or whoever is in charge of that mechanic) decided to do that. It had to have been a conscience decision, or it was a minor oversight that has huge implications for people that play that way.

 
I don't believe that they are being coerced in any way. I thought that they could be convinced and even change their minds with logic and reason by listening to their users. You might have convinced me otherwise.
(I used the digging zombies as an example. This post is not about digging, I know you know this, but making sure.)
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Yes, and my reply wasn't a comment on digging zombies per se. It was on the perception that people have about how features they don't like get implemented. You aren't the only one who posts things like "We have a,b, and c features in the game because those dozen forum users complained" No, that's not how we got a, b, and c. We got them because the development team had a meeting and discussed what they wanted to put in the game. They do bring up sentiments posted on the forum as part of those discussions. But they don't do it because of those comments. They do it because they think it is good idea for a fun game the way they like to have fun. Not eveyone is going to agree with their form of fun.

About the AI, I know its in super early stages and that work is just beginning. My point about closing loopholes is that you could see it as fataal vs the internet. Eventually his AI will be destroyed and exploited as it would be impossible to make one that lasts forever. At what point would he say "It's good enough, lets move to the end game" (whatever that is)
I stand by my point of defining what is a game breaking "loophole" and understanding that there are some things that are not worth their time as players will just find "another way".
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This is your point I absolutely agree with and said so when I originally commented. Faatal is keenly aware of that and has stated a number of times he isn't going to get into an intelligence battle with the players. However he isn't satisfied with the current status and is happy to hear of the many use cases in which the pathing is not as expected or in which players are able to game the pathing. Some things he will fix in direct response-- He fixed that zombies weren't stepping over ankle high blocks set up as a maze after he watched a video someone linked for him. But mostly he just wants obvious and jarring exploits to be closed. If the player has to build an elaborate maze with traps and kill corridors-- that's work and creativity and not just a simple remove and replace two bridging frame blocks to make the horde run back and forth between two ramps.

In the case of underground, it was an entire biome sealed off from zombie threat in a zombie survival game. Water will be next for A18 I imagine. The developers believe that the entire playspace should be one of zombie survival. It isn't a tit for tat battle they are waging with us.

 
Thanks for replying Roland.
It would be nice though, to find out why Fataal (or whoever is in charge of that mechanic) decided to do that. It had to have been a conscience decision, or it was a minor oversight that has huge implications for people that play that way.
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I'm sure it is a bug if we are talking non Blood Moon night zombies. Maybe vertical distance isn't working like horizontal distance is. Maybe zombies can see through the seams between terrain voxels somehow. It could be a number of things. I really don't think that faatal intends for regular zombies to be able to detect you when you are deep underground.

 
This already is in place, and have been for the entire experimental.
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Currently zombies have no code to damage blocks while they are falling or jumping. They can't do both at the same time. Faatal just last week in internal conversations talked about adding this ability later as it would solve a lot of the cheesy builds. He has also discussed adding in random behaviors so the entire horde doesn't just follow the cheapest path. He has also discussed having some zombies not get their new pathing data updated as quickly so that if something changes they will still pursue the old path instead of instantly switching to the new one.

None of these abilities/behaviors are in the game presently and are things that may or may not happen depending on how expensive they are in terms of computations and development time.

 
I'm sure it is a bug if we are talking non Blood Moon night zombies. Maybe vertical distance isn't working like horizontal distance is. Maybe zombies can see through the seams between terrain voxels somehow. It could be a number of things. I really don't think that faatal intends for regular zombies to be able to detect you when you are deep underground.
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Even horde night. I read people complain about random zombies just start digging, but I was referring to horde night. While most of us enjoy that mechanic, those that don't would hide in their underground base, which isn't an option any more. That is what I was referring to, sorry for not being clear. A 7th day horde night is a gps horde, I get that, but from a logical stand point, how would they and why would they, claw through 50 meters of dirt and rock to get to the player.

That's what I'm referring to as a conscious decision, or oversight, because they didn't dig before so they could hide, now they dig, so players that don't like that mechanic can't hide.

If they're on a server, they log out to avoid it. If in single player I guess they'd have to hit f1 dm move the time to after the horde time and resume their game play.

 
Currently zombies have no code to damage blocks while they are falling or jumping. They can't do both at the same time. Faatal just last week in internal conversations talked about adding this ability later as it would solve a lot of the cheesy builds. He has also discussed adding in random behaviors so the entire horde doesn't just follow the cheapest path. He has also discussed having some zombies not get their new pathing data updated as quickly so that if something changes they will still pursue the old path instead of instantly switching to the new one.
None of these abilities/behaviors are in the game presently and are things that may or may not happen depending on how expensive they are in terms of computations and development time.
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I'll just throw this out there, because I don't know if it's possible.

can zombies have different or random ai? some can behave like current, constantly run off edges, call it a distraction if you want. Other zombie ai just goes toward the general direction of the user, thus hitting blocks, blowing up mines, wrecking spikes etc.

You could have several different ai traits which would keep the player busy because you have to worry about multiple aspects of fighting. Which would be more engaging and instead of a steady congo line it would look far more zombiesque because they're all doing random attacks trying to get at you.

This would encourage elaborate bases again because you'd need it. Current system building of a massive base is a waste of time when they all stream in the same location.

give each zombie a different iteration of the previous several alphas ai behaviour and you've got a great mix of OMG. ;)

just not the circle zombies that was bad. haha

 
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i dont understand why forge is lvl gated.if u get it early big deal,its not like u will have ♥♥♥♥ ton resources at the time.

 
Even horde night. I read people complain about random zombies just start digging, but I was referring to horde night. While most of us enjoy that mechanic, those that don't would hide in their underground base, which isn't an option any more. That is what I was referring to, sorry for not being clear. A 7th day horde night is a gps horde, I get that, but from a logical stand point, how would they and why would they, claw through 50 meters of dirt and rock to get to the player.
That's what I'm referring to as a conscious decision, or oversight, because they didn't dig before so they could hide, now they dig, so players that don't like that mechanic can't hide.

If they're on a server, they log out to avoid it. If in single player I guess they'd have to hit f1 dm move the time to after the horde time and resume their game play.
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It is intended for blood moon zombies to pursue the players wherever they are. Madmole previously stated that eventually there will be safe zones to go to but that out in the wilderness nowhere is safe.

 
i dont understand why forge is lvl gated.if u get it early big deal,its not like u will have ♥♥♥♥ ton resources at the time.
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Level 10 is pretty early isn’t it? Used to be level 20.

 
Currently zombies have no code to damage blocks while they are falling or jumping. They can't do both at the same time.
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They do it when they land, which means it seems they have 15 meters arms. Which is what i found to be..unatural.

 
They do it when they land, which means it seems they have 15 meters arms. Which is what i found to be..unatural.
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Yeah sounds like there's some delay going on at some point in that process that's allowing them to hit before landing... ish.

Can be problematic.

 
There are a lot of balancing that's needs to be done for sure. But there are also a few features that I think could be utalized better.

Grow block mechanic. Could easily been used to give the illusion of the clay in the forge is drying, and prospond the useage of the forge a few days.

Skill points earned every day you survive and a cooldown for given points if you die instead of death buff. That would give players a reward as well as a punishment.

GS influencing the damage zombies does on blocks. Early game flagstone would be feasible building material but wouldn't last a minute in late game.

 
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