PC let me get this right

[Davy Crockett]

Lets take Ark as example, yes it takes time until i can have Tek Gear but there are so many other things i can have before i get Tek Gear, such "so many things" is not existend in 7days.

This is an important point, although the content is actually already there, it's just not being used.

I think the reason for this is how easily regular day 1 zombies can destroy buildings, encouraging people to skip to the strongest building material they can get, which then makes them realize that their stone tools are inadequate for gathering the resources they need in a non-tedious fashion.

As an example, if you build your horde base out of wood you will die, but if you build it out of cobblestone, you're in for tedium because you have stone tools. The result is that getting iron tools doesn't feel like an upgrade, but like the game has finally decided to stop holding out on you (this also goes for perks; "crafting game" where you have to specialize into crafting?), which I'd say is why so many people were against that level gate.

Considering there are already multiple tiers of zombies, and even special zombies that can puke and explode, do the "grunts" really need to be so good at destroying your house that it makes early game materials (and thereby, tools) feel weak enough that people don't want to use them?

In short, don't force us to use lower tier tools, but give us something to use them on.

 

[Oberion]

I'm sorry but I am going to have to agree that it sort of feels like there's no real direction with what you guys want to do here. You know what's better than forcing artificial play times? More content. If you want people to have a hard time specializing - add more options. I'm assuming the perks we have now aren't going to be the only ones we ever get, right?
And to boot, the whole 'parties get multipliers on their experience' is just silly. I've seen people somehow still manage to reach level 60-70 within a day or two of a new experimental drop - all because they party up and farm screamers. As a solo player, it sucks to know that not only am I denied experience because I am solo, but I am also denied zombies because the parties are spawning them all for themselves.

During the level gate removal experimental (233? 238? I can't remember there's been so many this week), I focused purely on an INT rush to get steel. This left me constantly over-encumbered, constantly thirsty and hungry, with terrible slow resource gathering and terrible combat performance. There were a few times I got in over my head and died because of my lack of build diversity. Now we're just back to being forced to spread our points, and mostly everyone is going to end up the same in the end, now it only takes much longer and there's nothing to fill in the gaps.

What happened to moving some exp over to crafting/building? Why do you get 3 exp for looting at level 1, but 100+ exp when looting above level 20? Getting to max gear level and discovering you're bored isn't a reason to slow the whole thing down and make it a chore, it's a reason to conceptualize new content - actual things to do in the game. In the last 2-3 years, the biggest leaps in terms of content we've had are vehicles, and electricity, and the very very basic quest system.

You do realize they dont listen right? They are making a game they want to make. Nothing else matters. How long have we asked for certain features but none of them have even been looked at? Its not about what players who bought this game is about. Its about what The Fun Pimps want to play. They are not making a game for fans, they are making a game for themselves. So posting in a forum complaining about the state of the game, in history should definitely prove that they dont care what your opinions are. The only thing they are quick about is to tell you " dont like it., dont play it or get off the forums"

 

[Ornias]

So many people want their hand held tightly. Remember that time you had to go out and LOOT and LOOT until you found the skill book to make the forge?

I found that more enjoyable than the current whack a zombie and buy everything at the trader MO.

 

[Ttocs]

@ MM

I get what youre saying and as an ark player too but that just the gear, resources used to be easier to get and your stam was not so much of a hindrance either i feel like you guys have pushed too much of the 'godlike' stuff back rather than just some.

imo solution is too put harvesting somewhere between a16 and now. people have fun building at all stages and there doesnt seem much reason to push that back, same as ark you can build really cool stuff way before the tek gear. keep the tech stuff pushed back but move some of the quality of life stuff (stam, block dmg, harvested materials, loot speed, loot quality, recipes, cardio) closer to early otherwise its just no good.

i think having a 5 skill tree for some stuff is overkill, stuff like farming, cooking and some others would be better suited for a 3 tier skill rather than 5.

all my opinion ofc

 

[DarKnight770]

So many different points to respond to, where to begin?!

A small minority of players will always rush to complete new content as soon as it's released. This was true back in Everquest where hours after new content dropped players would have completed what took a team 6 months to develop.

And that's fine! That's a minority of players, the majority won't ever even achieve the level of play that enables them to SEE that content. Making the top content harder will never stop the top players, and just makes it so the majority of players can't play it.

Since things have become locked down by levels, people will find a way to enable them to get through them quickly. No matter what is rewarded, game theory says there will be a shortest path to exploit that system. You'll never "fix" that.

Back in A10 or 11, I played a zero craft game. It was fun having to plan out carrying water to a found campfire with a pot I'd been saving, and scary trying to break into a store to scavenge a fire axe using nothing but a stick. That was a self imposed restriction, I played a game as I wanted since this is a sandbox game with a theme but not a narrative. I created my own.

I see the developers as trying to force a narrative right now. In what was an open zombie/survival/crafting game they're taking great pains to force a progression where one didn't exist before. The progression is the new narrative.

I see why they're doing it, but I don't like it. I love playing expert mode Minecraft packs, where things open up through a very focused path, but the base game is designed to allow freeform. Sometimes I want to play an open kitchensink pack and have options be available whenever I want them.

And the new level gating still doesn't make sense anyways, since the perks that use steel can be bought before steel can be made. It needs to be available through traders/loot/scrapping earlier if we're supposed to make use of those early unlocks.

 

[LuckyStar]

+1
Living underground is an example of this. TFP thought it was not the way intended and (re)added digging zombies. Many people thought it was unbalanced and fought against it. Eventually and by the looks of it, a slider will be added to make digging optional. All that time was used in something that is now an option... instead of using it for the, as you put it, "fun playstyle they are envisioning".

All arguments are: "I dont like players who cheese by living underground" = "but you don't HAVE to do it yourself" = "Then turn off zombies"

Its a catch 22... TFP won't win that and they don't have to. Keep making your game and let players do their thing and what makes them happy. When there's game breaking stuff that you feel that EVERYBODY is doing IT to "cheese" a certain situation, then you deal with it. Other than that, let them be FREE.

Yeah This. ^

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

AMAZING TIMES!!!!!
This is what to strive for! Make the 4X4 a lootable book for all I care. At least there's a real reason to go out and loot after a certain point.

I assumed that the 4x4 was going to be a vehicle that we fixed up. That was what i wanted. to place a tool box next to a car, take a special wrench, and start "upgrading" the car into the 4x4. This is more realistic, less grindy, and fun. cars would no longer be containers and loot points, but could be fixed and driven.

 

[Randomdude]

I assumed that the 4x4 was going to be a vehicle that we fixed up. That was what i wanted. to place a tool box next to a car, take a special wrench, and start "upgrading" the car into the 4x4. This is more realistic, less grindy, and fun. cars would no longer be containers and loot points, but could be fixed and driven.

Yeeeeees! Make it one of the cars at the trader. You earn rep or get to level 40 and hell either sell it or make you fix it and its yours.

 

[JaxTeller718]

Psst

I have a secret for everyone.

I'm going to share it. Because I'm feeling generous.

My mod (sorry Guppy, unavoidable )didn't become popular because I reinvented the wheel. It became popular because I added a ton of ♥♥♥♥ to do. New models, new storage, new weapons, new tools. All unlocked every 5-10 levels so players kept getting SOMETHING for their work. Starvation. INSANE Popularity. Why? Things to DO. Things to COLLECT. Farming. Workers. War of the Walkers. Same Thing. Classes, collecting and new weapons and tools.

This isn't rocket science. Honestly I don't think the game even needed a perk overhaul. Like AT ALL. You want to make EVERYONE happy? ADD CONTENT! Add guns. Add weapons. Add more zombies. Add new build blocks. Add More Farming. Add Fishing. Add Research. Add 20 vehicles with the SAME EXACT MECHANICS but add different models, different years. Add 100 new pieces of clothing so players can dress the way they want.

I know it sounds ridiculously simple right? Players LOVE rewards. They love the DING. The UNLOCK. Add a ton of content, space out the unlocks, add over 50 new quests to get some of them, add 100 to traders and i GUARANTEE you people would love the ♥♥♥♥ out of it. With ZERO complaints.

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. We already LOVED 16. We just wanted fixes. The new AI, nicer Random Gen. And CONTENT.

 

[LuckyStar]

Psst
I have a secret for everyone.

I'm going to share it. Because I'm feeling generous.

My mod (sorry Guppy, unavoidable )didn't become popular because I reinvented the wheel. It became popular because I added a ton of ♥♥♥♥ to do. New models, new storage, new weapons, new tools. All unlocked every 5-10 levels so players kept getting SOMETHING for their work. Starvation. INSANE Popularity. Why? Things to DO. Things to COLLECT. Farming. Workers. War of the Walkers. Same Thing. Classes, collecting and new weapons and tools.

This isn't rocket science. Honestly I don't think the game even needed a perk overhaul. Like AT ALL. You want to make EVERYONE happy? ADD CONTENT! Add guns. Add weapons. Add more zombies. Add new build blocks. Add More Farming. Add Fishing. Add Research. Add 20 vehicles with the SAME EXACT MECHANICS but add different models, different years. Add 100 new pieces of clothing so players can dress the way they want.

I know it sounds ridiculously simple right? Players LOVE rewards. They love the DING. The UNLOCK. Add a ton of content, space out the unlocks, add over 50 new quests to get some of them, add 100 to traders and i GUARANTEE you people would love the ♥♥♥♥ out of it. With ZERO complaints.

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. We already LOVED 16. We just wanted fixes. The new AI, nicer Random Gen. And CONTENT.

Normally I don't agree with you, but...

You make some good points.

Can't really argue with your post.

 

[JaxTeller718]

Normally I don't agree with you, but...
You make some good points.

Can't really argue with your post.

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

I was against attribute gating because it stops early specialization. So we removed attribute gates and hoped the steeper prices of attributes would keep people out of steel for several weeks, but they teamed up and got INT 10 on day 5 or less. Thats like having Tek gear in ark after 5 hours, when it takes literally 6 months to get tek gear in that game if you play casually for 3 hours a day.
Perk gating is best for the game to ensure some delayed gratification and continued challenge. If you get the best gear in the game on day 1 or even day 10, then there is no challenge and the game gets boring very quickly. You might as well just start a new character... and wait why bother you got everything on day 1 again. You guys might as well type CM in and get the stuff you think you deserve on day 1. You could turn the difficulty down too, it has the same effect. But that doesn't work against other players in pvp or give you bragging rights in pve.

There is still great value in getting an attribute to 10 and specializing early game. We're just blocking you from getting the best tech super early because once progression feels stalled out, any game gets boring. Once I got to level 100 in Ark and got the best stuff and couldn't gain any more levels, I quit. I didn't think I would, but I suddenly lost interest. Same thing happens in Fallout at level 40-50 and in Skyrim. Once you get the best gear and hit god status, the reason to play suddenly vanishes for most players.

We can always add an xp slider for those who can't stand not being god can hit end game in 10% of the time. And those who want a long grind can slow it down easily.

When i first started playing this game, i friggen loved it. I was enamored. It made me feel better after getting screwed by starforge. Then one day, i said "whats the point" and quit for a few months. This was back in a13, a14? i guess? This had never happened to me in a game before. in over 30 years of obsessive gaming, i never said "whats the point" and quit. Yet in the middle of my cell tower fortress project, i did just that.

so i understand the progression lock behind tech. It adds a challenge to overcome.

Now this begs a question: Should tech be locked behind perks, or gamestage? As it stands with my play style, i suspect i will use each week to focus on an attribute. week 1 for fortitude, week 2 for intel, week 3 strength, week 4 perception, then repeat. That is just how i will do things, other people will do things differently. It seems that the goal is to make the forge a week 2 or later thing, and that makes sense and feels right. Frankly with the quest rewards the forge is not too important for week one, as there are alternative sources for good tools.

I suspect the big issue is not that the forge takes a while to get, but it is how we get it. You just put points in intelligence and the forge and unlock it. I guess in real life if i spent all day trying to think up how to make a forge i would figure it out? I dunno, that kinda hits the suspension of disbelief right in the balls. Perhaps instead make the forge a recipe that is given to you by traders once you do enough quests for them? Earn enough rep with the traders and they give you schematics?

Honestly i have not had too many issues with the new changes. Level gates and level economy; once i spent an hour figuring out the logic they made sense and i ran with it. So far the only issue that i have is the hunger rate, but i have made those known in other psots.

 

[Sonozaki]

I get point is gated cuz end game, but after i wanna go explore but map small... Wanna build mansion to show off to ppl but only one claim now.. anyway even i get all i wanna help other ppl so game not boring as long you have play whit others... Anyway forge cap i don't mind just need a pateince a bit and kill z an loot

 

[Krougal]

It is still quite a bit of dedicated work with the current stamina issues to reach INT 10. I would rushINT, but only to the point of getting a motorized vehicle to make crossing the patches of different

biomes a bit easier, since either hot or could would add encumberance.

And yes, in very many games one make it to the top, then say stop. But there is at least 2 games

i know of that was good enough to make me, and many others, play well after they reached max

status, because the games themself were just pure genious and FUN to play.

One is minecraft, another one is 7 days to die. And i used to prefer the latter.

Still does , even though it seems to be a fading star.

As for attribute gating, i found the game better when it had none. When a shovel

was just a shovel , and my player was just someone , somewhere in the zombie infested

american wilderness, trying to survive.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

+1
Living underground is an example of this. TFP thought it was not the way intended and (re)added digging zombies. Many people thought it was unbalanced and fought against it. Eventually and by the looks of it, a slider will be added to make digging optional. All that time was used in something that is now an option... instead of using it for the, as you put it, "fun playstyle they are envisioning".

All arguments are: "I dont like players who cheese by living underground" = "but you don't HAVE to do it yourself" = "Then turn off zombies"

Its a catch 22... TFP won't win that and they don't have to. Keep making your game and let players do their thing and what makes them happy. When there's game breaking stuff that you feel that EVERYBODY is doing IT to "cheese" a certain situation, then you deal with it. Other than that, let them be FREE.

There is a big difference between grinders and building underground.

There will always be those who try optimize the game.

But building underground was super easy and had no negatives.

It removed a big part of the game (horde gameplay and preparation)

What people wanted weren't (necessarily) digging zombies. They wanted air circulation, debuffs for staying underground for too long/not fighting the horde and of course: maggots

We didn't want to ruin your fun. We just didn't want an easy exploit that WE had to avoid to have fun.

Think if you have to climb the mount everest for the bragging rights, but right next to you is a helicopter, transporting people to the top without any effort. "I was on top of mount everest" isn't really a biggie anymore. Or maybe they use hightech to easily climb... or they use some other tools that you do not feel give the full experience.

Or if you buy a LoL account that is already Master. A WoW account on max level. And so on and so forth.

It is not the same as the "easy way out". It is not as rewarding. And its the same for me, when I know that I can simply cheese the horde. I don't need to build elaborate defenses, I can simply dig. And no I do not want to build it for fun. I want to build it to survive! Surviving and the challenge is what makes it fun. I don't want to invent rules to have fun surviving.

It is not about you. It never was. Nearly noone argued AGAINST YOUR FUN! They argued for their own, as this is a SURVIVAL game.

Exploits are not features!

 

[Sellsents]

Psst
I have a secret for everyone.

I'm going to share it. Because I'm feeling generous.

My mod (sorry Guppy, unavoidable )didn't become popular because I reinvented the wheel. It became popular because I added a ton of ♥♥♥♥ to do. New models, new storage, new weapons, new tools. All unlocked every 5-10 levels so players kept getting SOMETHING for their work. Starvation. INSANE Popularity. Why? Things to DO. Things to COLLECT. Farming. Workers. War of the Walkers. Same Thing. Classes, collecting and new weapons and tools.

This isn't rocket science. Honestly I don't think the game even needed a perk overhaul. Like AT ALL. You want to make EVERYONE happy? ADD CONTENT! Add guns. Add weapons. Add more zombies. Add new build blocks. Add More Farming. Add Fishing. Add Research. Add 20 vehicles with the SAME EXACT MECHANICS but add different models, different years. Add 100 new pieces of clothing so players can dress the way they want.

I know it sounds ridiculously simple right? Players LOVE rewards. They love the DING. The UNLOCK. Add a ton of content, space out the unlocks, add over 50 new quests to get some of them, add 100 to traders and i GUARANTEE you people would love the ♥♥♥♥ out of it. With ZERO complaints.

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. We already LOVED 16. We just wanted fixes. The new AI, nicer Random Gen. And CONTENT.

Exactly this!

A16 had a good balance. There was absolutly no need changing the whole system again. Just fix stuff and add new things for players to do.

I always wanted to have different cars and busses in this game and more electrical devises, more options to build and decorate your base. I want to find books and read them and then getting better with what I do over time. I want to get a real cold and then struggle with it during hordenight. I want the zombies wandering in the open instead of having the houses full to the brim with them. I want lockpicks for opening doors and vaults. I want other npc´s like the trader which I can interact or fight with. etc. There are so many possibilities to add stuff to make this game worth playing.

 

[JaxTeller718]

Exactly this!
A16 had a good balance. There was absolutly no need changing the whole system again. Just fix stuff and add new things for players to do.

I always wanted to have different cars and busses in this game and more electrical devises, more options to build and decorate your base. I want to find books and read them and then getting better with what I do over time. I want to get a real cold and then struggle with it during hordenight. I want the zombies wandering in the open instead of having the houses full to the brim with them. I want lockpicks for opening doors and vaults. I want other npc´s like the trader which I can interact or fight with. etc. There are so many possibilities to add stuff to make this game worth playing.

Indeed. And the biggest request from 16 was to expand on electricity and nothing was done with it. People begged for powered doors, fridges, heating systems, remote functionality. Even better water was a major discussion on here at one point. SO many things that could have added more layers of intriguing gameplay. It really is a shame. Maybe we will see this things one day now that (hopefully) they got this rework out of their system.

Electricity wasn't even touched this Alpha.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Indeed. And the biggest request from 16 was to expand on electricity and nothing was done with it. People begged for powered doors, fridges, heating systems, remote functionality. Even better water was a major discussion on here at one point. SO many things that could have added more layers of intriguing gameplay. It really is a shame. Maybe we will see this things one day now that (hopefully) they got this rework out of their system.
Electricity wasn't even touched this Alpha.

Lets all get together and make insane mods for A16 that gets more downloads than A17

There are sooo many questionable changes in A17 and so few that were actually needed or even wanted...

Electricity, Bandits, water physics, more threats, endgame

Those are nr 1 priority.

 

[Bandicoot]

I was against attribute gating because it stops early specialization. So we removed attribute gates and hoped the steeper prices of attributes would keep people out of steel for several weeks, but they teamed up and got INT 10 on day 5 or less. Thats like having Tek gear in ark after 5 hours, when it takes literally 6 months to get tek gear in that game if you play casually for 3 hours a day.
Perk gating is best for the game to ensure some delayed gratification and continued challenge. If you get the best gear in the game on day 1 or even day 10, then there is no challenge and the game gets boring very quickly. You might as well just start a new character... and wait why bother you got everything on day 1 again. You guys might as well type CM in and get the stuff you think you deserve on day 1. You could turn the difficulty down too, it has the same effect. But that doesn't work against other players in pvp or give you bragging rights in pve.

There is still great value in getting an attribute to 10 and specializing early game. We're just blocking you from getting the best tech super early because once progression feels stalled out, any game gets boring. Once I got to level 100 in Ark and got the best stuff and couldn't gain any more levels, I quit. I didn't think I would, but I suddenly lost interest. Same thing happens in Fallout at level 40-50 and in Skyrim. Once you get the best gear and hit god status, the reason to play suddenly vanishes for most players.

We can always add an xp slider for those who can't stand not being god can hit end game in 10% of the time. And those who want a long grind can slow it down easily.

Roland got me wrong for the most part. i wasnt questioning the development changes as if they were a weird thing during an experimental build. i said i was confused because we waited a very tong time for a17 (not complaining) and we got the first a17 perk system. 2 weeks later it changed alot. i was confused because as Roland said you wanted the system to give progression with levels and stuff and the only thing that peopple complained about basicaly was the forge, which you had to wait till level 20 to get.

Without the forge your only hope is to find decent tools or even cutting down a tree is going to be painful. the early game feels bad and not fun to me because is all about that darn stamina. Maps are really big and running isnt a real thing early game, everything you do drains your stamina and food in a crazy way, at least with forged iron tools it doesnt feel that bad to break stuff or kill zombies instead of having only stone tools and at best an iron club.

Early game you dont die because you did mistakes or you got cought in a bad situation, is only doe to the stamina draining so quickly to the point where i found myself going "not even worth trying having a challenge" and give up because i know ill be out of stamina and die in two seconds, expecially against the first horde nights.

eraly games the best possible FOR MELEE (not guns) is to spend points into the clubs and having them wasted later once you got the forge, or holding down to some points to spend for sledgehammer or machete, depending on how lucky you are to find them before you get the forge if not after you got it and crafted better weapons yourself. Ofc holding down to points (or spending them for weapons you dont have yet) in order to make sure you dont waste points in the long run makes your early game even worse.

to be fair tho, once you are set you are set for good and everything works perfectly, its just an early game balance that at the moment, no offense, it sucks. I do remember getting lost in between all the things i could/want to do early game, building, scavenging, leveling and what not. as it is now this wont happen untill you are lvl 100 or so because: early melee game feels bad, realy bad... Building in something that isnt concrete its a waste of time and materials because zeds chew through it like butter, and even concrete isnt great. Guns feels weak without some decent Perception perks and if you spend these point you will have not enough bullets to use only weapons and then your melee its going to be weak even more.

so you end up at level 50 where you start to get some glowing zombies, and or you are good in melee and you die because your stamina cant keep up with a couple of swings and you have no HP and dmg mitigation, or you are good with weapons but you die/cant do anything once you shot your last bullet, or you have a base that you cant defend because well, you are a clever but weak scientist.

i hope my confusion is a little bit more understandable now =P

 

[Bandicoot]

I would say you certainly CAN powerlevel by grinding out zombie kills but I wouldn't say that doing so is the recognized design goal of the current system.
What I am hoping is that the developers are finally coming to the realization that whatever system they put in place grinders gonna grind. So stop worrying about it and create the system that supports the fun playstyle they are envisioning. There will always be Speedy McSpeedsters who will complain that the endgame came too soon because of what they chose to do.

my personal end game is PVP, and with 4k hours on it we are very methodicals and what not. but i have to disagree with you and MM because as MM said once you got it all there is nothing left to do, and the end game really comes too soon, with a lack of serious progression in between. i love the game even at this state dont get me wrong. but you have to understand that at the moment if you dont grind you dont get out of the first phase that feels really bad, and at the same time you get to end game way too quickly and the game itself has not much to offer as end game content, which is the issue MM pointed out with Skyrim and Fallout too. Its the same issue, just different game.

I dont really have a solutio to this, if not npcs that give you access to content it was locked before a rep grind or something like that. areas that are claimed like the traders where you cant break anything therefore you have to go along with npcs granting you access or something like that.