Unkfester.pm
New member
Same here I ain't got a clue either
PC LBD talk is RIGHT HERE
- Thread starter Roland
- Start date
Unkfester.pm
New member
Should of carried on reading posts. Now I know
Menace312
New member
All this talk about what should be in and what should be out of the game, is weird to me...
More complexity = more fun.
It's only a question of balance.
As an example, I like LBD. But that does not mean active leveling of the skill, cant be a thing too. It's all in the balance.
So, you level your club skill by using it. But you could put points in the skill aswell, at a high cost.
Science, levels slowly by using it, but is generally easier to level actively. (You've seen and observed things, gotten XP and then level science).
I like things to do. When zombies dropped loot, I lunged at it. Sometimes I got it, sometimes not. And sometimes I got killed. (I usually modded the corpses, so they disappeared quickly).
All this will also fit with Roland idea of XP per survived days in game...
More complexity = more fun.
It's only a question of balance.
As an example, I like LBD. But that does not mean active leveling of the skill, cant be a thing too. It's all in the balance.
So, you level your club skill by using it. But you could put points in the skill aswell, at a high cost.
Science, levels slowly by using it, but is generally easier to level actively. (You've seen and observed things, gotten XP and then level science).
I like things to do. When zombies dropped loot, I lunged at it. Sometimes I got it, sometimes not. And sometimes I got killed. (I usually modded the corpses, so they disappeared quickly).
All this will also fit with Roland idea of XP per survived days in game...
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Craterz
New member
I agree with what you said, and I mean no offense when I say this... but... this is not a good example of singular lbd... learning guitar can make you a better piano player. Limiting yourself to the one instrument is a choice (or perhaps you just are lacking a set of keys to pound on). You're still learning whatever music you want to play, you're still learning the theory (if you're involved in it more than just mimicking the tune), really, the only difference is the muscle memory of the actions. Music is still music, chords are still chords, notes are still notes.
This is actually a good example of why I personally like the current system. Earn the xp by whatever action, spend it how YOU want to. Can it be improved? Sure. But I feel it's a good base to build from. The old lbd was too limiting IMHO.
Craterz
New member
Good for you! I mean that (trying to be encouraging, not snide). Also not trying to go to far off topic, but... as for myself, I've been playing guitar for... oh gawd... a lot longer than that (and I still suck btw), and can also sit down at a set of keys and slowly (key word here) pound out a basic I-IV-V bluesy thing. It wouldn't be good, nor practiced, but I could do it. My general point though was that a A major is still a A major (or whatever chord, or note), doesn't matter if it was played on a fretboard or ivories. Learning that A major isn't restricted to the one instrument. Same goes for the I-IV-V progression. So... learning guitar by doing can be applied to piano (as well as other instruments) and make you a better piano player. This is the broader picture. Narrowing the focus, the physical action of playing a guitar can also make one a better piano player, as both physical actions are building finger dexterity and strength.
Anyway... I'll sneak back into the shadows and patiently wait for a18 goodies, well not strictly wait... I guess I'm one of few that enjoys a17 and I'll be enjoying it until whenever we get whatever comes next...
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@Craterz, np, I'm (lightly) trolling just like you. 
Just imagine the same analogy but between, say, saxophone and triangle...
To be fair, we're just talking game mechanics here.
It doesn't even need to make absolute sense. (Like... Zombies, right?)
LBD felt a bit more organic to me, but I understand it's a tricky mechanic to balance.
Just imagine the same analogy but between, say, saxophone and triangle...
To be fair, we're just talking game mechanics here.
It doesn't even need to make absolute sense. (Like... Zombies, right?)
LBD felt a bit more organic to me, but I understand it's a tricky mechanic to balance.
Gamida
Hood Ornament
I don't understand that part. I know mentioning irl has nothing to do with the game but I don't see the difference in shooting at a wall in game to improve your skill than irl putting a target on a wall and shooting at it over and over and over again to improve your skill...which people do. From what I understand as I have never done it.
JaxTeller718
New member
I was merely arguing that the example I gave was the reason LBD was removed. Things like shooting a wall or standing on a cactus. For me, that was never a good enough reason to junk the entire system. If people want to do those things go ahead, thats a waste of their game time when they could be having fun, but removing LBD because 20 percent of the players refuse to just go out and level naturally screws over the 80 percent who did and enjoyed it.
Modders can find ways around those types of exploits, so just leave the system in, at least in and hidden so we can work with it without breaking servers.
Thats like saying remove zombies because they run in circles and can be exploited. Last I checked you're the developer, its sort of your JOB to combat exploits as best as you can, not just throw a system out and say "they beat us".
Roland
Moderator
I don't think those examples are the reason LBD was removed. I believe the reason it was removed was that LBD limits the player to one activity in order to improve the skill related to that activity. Want to improve mining? You can only do that by mining. Want to improve your skill with clubs? You can only do that by using clubs. Yes, you could spend points on those skills too but that was universally looked down upon as a colossal waste of those points. I saw posts back in the day where people were chided in a "get gud" way when they admitted to spending points on skills that could have been improved by repetitive action instead.
Does this make logical and immersive sense? Yes. But it is also very limiting and undesirable for those who would rather do other things but then when they have to finally mine be able to do so at a higher level. With a common pool of xp you can do anything you want to improve anything else whether they are directly related to each other or not thematically.
Madmole's examples are simply his way of emphasizing the limiting factor of LBD compared to the freedom of common pool experience.
The hate we see comes not from any inherent better design of one over the other. They both have their pros and cons. The hate comes from players' ability or inability to excuse gamey mechanics that feel less immersive to them. I'm fine with either system, myself, but I do like the current system quite a lot. I don't have any immersion hangups with it and see skillpoints as a pool of currency representing my overall experience as a survivor so I can apply them wherever I want regardless of the activities I performed to earn them.
I also find it fun to plan out a build and then spend my points how I wish to achieve that build. I see the spending of points not so much the result of what I have done but more of how I want to focus my development going forward. Of course, I like boardgames quite a bit and allocating points for advantages feels very boardgamey to me so I don't mind it and feel it is a lot of fun.
LBD: More limiting but more immersive
Common Pool: More freedom but more gamey
Now, I also really believe that experience points in any form in a game like this are like an addictive pill that steals the soul of the game and creates all sorts of weird player incentives and playstyles that work contrary to the player focusing on survival tasks and playing the game as if they were actually in a zombie apocalypse. In this regard LBD is like mainlining that drug instead of taking it in pill form.
AtomicUs5000
New member
This is true, but the thing is that many of us who enjoyed LBD more understood this flaw and acknowledged it. We thought that a hybrid system was best and we voted that way in the poll.
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates
32% like perks only
48% like hybrid
24% like LBD only
By going hybrid you get 48% approval, plus you are making the other categories at least partially approve. Let's say half of each would be disappointed but still ok with it. So add in 16% and 12%.
There should theoretically be somewhere around a 76% approval rating when going Hybrid.
You make the hybrid system such that LBD skill is LBD skill and perks are perks. Either could be good enough, but to be a master you max it out both ways.
You can do that with hybrid.
That's why you go hybrid.
HYBRID: Not as limiting, more immersive, more freedom, less gamey.
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RestInPieces
New member
Funny that I think this was actually a good thing. In the end the player had to do various activities. With the common pool XP the player can just do the one that nets him the most XP, which is faaar more repetitive.
Hoping that the player will, by himself, do a variety of activities to spice up his gameplay, just because he "can", and him going against the strong incentives that the levels give him (or even getting them more slowly), is a fool's errand.
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danielspoa
New member
@Roland it felt less grindy with LBD, let me explain my view with an example: I'm running for loot. I'm getting my exp from killing zombies, looting stuff, etc, while I'm also getting levels on athletics and that gun from LBD, which comes as a nice surprise. Those 1-100 levels were less impactful individually but came as a good surprise while u were doing other stuff. They were minor improvements you weren't fully monitoring, and that felt really nice along with being immersive.
Can people abuse that? of course. But it doesn't feel different than when you are low level and go to a city to kill a bunch of zombies because that levels you fast. Or late game when u have a bunch of perks and start grinding stone to level. Actually, I'm not even sure it's that worth to waste ur time shooting a wall for that, while u can kill zombies and get xp for perks along with it.
LBD is at it's peak when u are not abusing it but naturally gaining those points while focusing on something else. This is what I tried to explain weeks ago when this was on discussion.
And why do we complain so much about it? well.. 1 - huge portion of the playerbase liked it. 2 - it was there ready and working. 3 - it can't be modded back without some extra work.
It's literally the only change I still can't understand after months of reading arguments. Worse than that, last two times I mentioned it people took a rude stance trying to convince me it made the game better for the majority of the players.
ps. I didn't even know about that poll until today. wtf
Can people abuse that? of course. But it doesn't feel different than when you are low level and go to a city to kill a bunch of zombies because that levels you fast. Or late game when u have a bunch of perks and start grinding stone to level. Actually, I'm not even sure it's that worth to waste ur time shooting a wall for that, while u can kill zombies and get xp for perks along with it.
LBD is at it's peak when u are not abusing it but naturally gaining those points while focusing on something else. This is what I tried to explain weeks ago when this was on discussion.
And why do we complain so much about it? well.. 1 - huge portion of the playerbase liked it. 2 - it was there ready and working. 3 - it can't be modded back without some extra work.
It's literally the only change I still can't understand after months of reading arguments. Worse than that, last two times I mentioned it people took a rude stance trying to convince me it made the game better for the majority of the players.
ps. I didn't even know about that poll until today. wtf
The Zombinator
New member
Chiming in on the Level By Doing conversation,
Bethesda's first Elder Scrolls game, Arena followed the same formula for party based dungeon crawlers (like Wizardry). When Daggerfall came out, it was the first time I'd ever seen an LBD format. Although an extremely buggy game, that system felt amazing compared to the get better at your job (class) by killing stuff system (even if your job wasn't killing stuff). I like the LBD approach to RPGs. It has that feeling of verisimilitude (means "true-like" or "a sense of realism") in an unreal setting. The other amazing thing Daggerfall allowed was for you to make your own job. This meant that you could get generally bigger, stronger, better, faster by doing the activities you chose when making your character. Morrowind eliminated what the devs thought were the "less fun" skills but added the ability to train 10 skill points per level without needing to grind doing something you might not want to repeatedly do. Skyrim got rid of create your own class to allow for a "do whatever you want" style that allowed them to not need to fix the class leveling system. (With a side note that some people felt this marked the turn of Bethesda beginning to dumb down their games.)
7D2D, like many, many games, has learned from Bethesda's approach. The do whatever you want approach, while not the most appealing to some of us geeks, works. No need to pre-declare what you're going to do. If you decide to switch it up on the fly, you're good. I really appreciated the attempt at LBD. I can see that the attempt to bypass unwanted grind was made by allowing players to spend points that would otherwise be spent on perk. If you care about min/maxing, then you really don't have a way to bypass grinding because those perk points are too valuable. At that time, we didn't have NPCs with different skill levels to train people. Also, the way training is done in Morrowind wouldn't work as this game is multiplayer (the clock stops for no one). So the transition away from LBD is warranted for many. The removal allowed for some simplified systems, but I don't know what the exact savings were.
However, training could be changed up in a way that retained verisimilitude without disrupting the clock or requiring precious perk points. You find an NPC that's better than you at medicine and has the training perk (I like the idea of perk rather than flag as it would allow PCs to become trainers if they bought the perk). You give the trainer what they are asking for, and then they share with you a few pieces of advice, which gives you an in game hour long (2 hrs? (Int(level/10)+1)*30 min?) "training rumination" buff. While this buff is up, you cannot benefit from any other training. At the end of the buff, you reflect on the skill and become slightly (1 point) better and are able to pursue other training. I frequently play alone, and I know I'd prefer to have LBD and training in the game rather than not, but it would need to be done in a way that would work in multiplayer. This alternative would allow players to level up in skills they don't want to grind out without creating any systems that detract from verisimilitude.
Bethesda's first Elder Scrolls game, Arena followed the same formula for party based dungeon crawlers (like Wizardry). When Daggerfall came out, it was the first time I'd ever seen an LBD format. Although an extremely buggy game, that system felt amazing compared to the get better at your job (class) by killing stuff system (even if your job wasn't killing stuff). I like the LBD approach to RPGs. It has that feeling of verisimilitude (means "true-like" or "a sense of realism") in an unreal setting. The other amazing thing Daggerfall allowed was for you to make your own job. This meant that you could get generally bigger, stronger, better, faster by doing the activities you chose when making your character. Morrowind eliminated what the devs thought were the "less fun" skills but added the ability to train 10 skill points per level without needing to grind doing something you might not want to repeatedly do. Skyrim got rid of create your own class to allow for a "do whatever you want" style that allowed them to not need to fix the class leveling system. (With a side note that some people felt this marked the turn of Bethesda beginning to dumb down their games.)
7D2D, like many, many games, has learned from Bethesda's approach. The do whatever you want approach, while not the most appealing to some of us geeks, works. No need to pre-declare what you're going to do. If you decide to switch it up on the fly, you're good. I really appreciated the attempt at LBD. I can see that the attempt to bypass unwanted grind was made by allowing players to spend points that would otherwise be spent on perk. If you care about min/maxing, then you really don't have a way to bypass grinding because those perk points are too valuable. At that time, we didn't have NPCs with different skill levels to train people. Also, the way training is done in Morrowind wouldn't work as this game is multiplayer (the clock stops for no one). So the transition away from LBD is warranted for many. The removal allowed for some simplified systems, but I don't know what the exact savings were.
However, training could be changed up in a way that retained verisimilitude without disrupting the clock or requiring precious perk points. You find an NPC that's better than you at medicine and has the training perk (I like the idea of perk rather than flag as it would allow PCs to become trainers if they bought the perk). You give the trainer what they are asking for, and then they share with you a few pieces of advice, which gives you an in game hour long (2 hrs? (Int(level/10)+1)*30 min?) "training rumination" buff. While this buff is up, you cannot benefit from any other training. At the end of the buff, you reflect on the skill and become slightly (1 point) better and are able to pursue other training. I frequently play alone, and I know I'd prefer to have LBD and training in the game rather than not, but it would need to be done in a way that would work in multiplayer. This alternative would allow players to level up in skills they don't want to grind out without creating any systems that detract from verisimilitude.
AtomicUs5000
New member
Limiting LBD with training and earned LBD skill that diminishes with time are interesting concepts, for both an LBD system or a Hybrid system. In the very least, it would make an excellent mod, if things were in place to let us build it.
KingSlayerGM
New member
Censorship.
Move the uncomfortable discussion far away from the thread that matters.
Move the uncomfortable discussion far away from the thread that matters.
Xenophobed44
New member
I'm stupid, wat does L B D even mean bruh?
Scyris
New member
I am kinda worried about this for single player characters myself. I rather like all the crafting being based around int, all the melee around str, all the guns around perception, it just makes sense. However in a18, where alot of the crafting recipies are being moved around as I have read, it means I am going to have to waste points in stats i'd normally not touch just to be able to use a decent gun. Which screws single player characters much more than they already are.
a17 does have little replay value atm though that is true, every game I play I generally have the same perks around the same level, compared to a16 where i'd have them where I was focused on for that playthru, it never was the same twice. WhHich hurts my usual playstyle in 7dtd because I generally play dead is dead. I just gets boring as every playthru as I mentioned I tend to get the same perks int he same order, mainly because I have to.
General build is like this: by level 25, 3 str, lv 3 miner 69'er, lv 3 motherload, 2 in Sex t-rex. Int, is around 6, with the glasses I can make tier 5 items now. I get the bike and minibike skill, physician 1, 2 in the forge skill, 1 in Advanced Enginnering, one in yeah science. I have bascally 0 skill points in per, agi, fort, as I just can't afford them. More important for me to get my block damage and item crafting up to par first. After level 25 I can start to spread out a bit more. But 1-25 is generally the same every single game.
I also find it silly how we can spend a perk point then magically know how to make a motocycle or a car with no training whatsoever. in Ark Survival evolved it made sense due to the cybernetic implant you have, so you have a source for the skills. But in 7dtd? your char just kinda pulls the know-how out of their ass.