PC LBD talk is RIGHT HERE

Censorship.
Move the uncomfortable discussion far away from the thread that matters.
This

Learn by nerfing , quite ironic i suppose, given the subject! Ignoring the people who gave the game its start and are STILL active and know the game inside out in favour of new money.

Maybe TFP are tiring of the development themselves, given the change in attitude towards longer standing members lately, food for thought!

 
I'm stupid, wat does L B D even mean bruh?
Learn By Doing, aka how a16 was, you wanted to be a good miner? you had to actually mine to raise the skill to be able to gain the better perks. The vechicles were locked behind books, so in a way thats still Learn By Doing. Compared to now, where your char just magically spends a perk point and pulls the knowledge out of their ■■■ to know how to build say a truck.

I am just glad that the devs though finally have a goal insted of being wishy washy and changing how the game is played every single alpha, its why we have not really gotten anywhere in years, to many overhauls of most of the game and how its played. For better or worse they have now finally set a solid plan and can build on it. Its better than before in that regard.

Besides, the game is highly modable and there are mods like Darkness Falls where Learn by Doing is alive and well. So thanks to modders its not gone for good.

 
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I'm stupid, what does L B D even mean bruh?
Learn by Doing, so back in Alpha 15 and 16, and possibly the previous alphas. You could level up things like mining by actually mining or even raising pistol skill by using that particular weapon.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, I think one of the few merits of LDB, is that it didn't truly lock you into a specific playstyle, unlike what the plan for A18 is. In A16, with LDB if you were a miner or a looter-trader, you could focus on those specific things. Heck, you didn't even necessarily need to get sexy t-rex as you'd naturally raise your Mining skill and get increased block damage by just that. Now in A17, you have to spend perk points to do more damage to blocks if you focus on being a miner. If you decided to be a heavy weapon miner, you could do that too! Just by naturally doing actions related to that, such as focusing on using a sledgehammer for all encounters.

The main thing I miss from LDB is more specifically the increased benefits from raising skills. Like I said in my first post, if you raised your mining skill, you would get increased block damage by doing that. Same if you used a pistol or bow, you would get a natural small amount of increased damage to zeds by doing that.

 
It would be even better if people took all their LBD disussion to the mod threads.
Well, it wasn't. Why?

it would be nice if TFP finished hooking up the code so skills were more than just a category sub-heading so we don't have to rely on cvars... which cause server issues... and DLL patches just to get it working.
In other words we can't do it nicely the way things are, and therefore it is pointless to post in mods threads.

 
Wow, this isn't even up for debate apparently. :(
Why would it be?

We have to understand that first and foremost this is The Fun Pimps' game. None of us are involved in its development, none of us have any right of ownership, none of us... well you get the picture.

The thing is, if everyone and their grandmother got a pass at being a game designer and wanted their voice heard we would end up with a game that would never be finished and would have functions that many would love, many would hate, many would understand, many would not understand and so on. There are about as many opinions as there are voices, and at some point they just have to say: enough!

 
It severely limits player choice. Do anything fun get xp, buy what you want with that xp, not be locked into repetitive grindy actions that force you to do stupid things like get stabbed to improve your armor ability.
Oh yeah! We all know how absolutely limiting Skyrim, Oblivion or Morrowind were.

You are what you like.

Like building and mining? Be a builder and miner. The better you build the less defending you have to do on hordenight

Like going in swinging? Level blunt/sharp weapons and armor. The better you are the less defenses you have to build.

Like looting and bartering found items? Level that. You can buy building materials and good weapons.

This was great gamedesign. Do what you love and get good at it while other skills are lacking.

Yes hitting stone for 5000 times isn't all that much fun, but this is why its a survival builder and not a creative builder.

Same as with the stoneaxe and the gunsafe. You don't have to do it day 1.

And you know what A16 brought? XP to level what you absolutely hated. So if you absolutely hated mining, you could do other stuff and then simply put your points into mining.

Now its just "do whatever and skill whatever". Its worse gamedesign, more repetative because you go the same path every game anyways because certain perks are simply more effective than others, or at least every player feels like some are more effective for them.

I will give you my story so you understand why A17 is boring for me:

A17:

*start game*

*level up a bit by throwing molotovs*

*level important perks like packmule stamina and fortitude*

*build a bit*

*level up more so I can finally get better equipment*

*level up more so that traders give me more rewards*

*level up to...*

*start a new game because this one got boring so very fast and do the exact same thing*

A16 game 1:

*start game*

*find a sledgehammer day 1*

*go in the city and sledge every zombie to death, looting while im at it and selling the stuff i found*

*buy me a better pickaxe in the first 3 days from that money*

*have stone and iron and start smelting and have ressources early on*

*build my own shelter*

*once my shelter is better go explore more and find weaponparts*

*endless exploring leveling ranged weapons*

A16 game 2:

*start game*

*don't find anything major in the first 7 days*

*play mostly with a bow trying to find a poi for me to use and reinforce*

*have no good tools therefor only wood collecting and putting loads of spikes around the poi*

*get overrun on day 7*

*move house and find a small town and clear it*

*finally have iron tools and start setting up permanent base in a great POI*

*start digging a killmote because I still dont have any good weapons*

*level up mining very high*

*after day 28 horde find everything for a minibike and can head out and explore bigger towns*

*continue game*

A16 game 3:

*start game*

*start in winter biome*

*run miles until I'm in a nice biome, finding some gasbarrels and a chainsaw before day 5*

*have incredible amounts of wood , making myself a wooden fortress with loads of spikes upgraded and can go exploring because I know zombies wont be able to break it until 3rd hordenight*

*find good loot because I found a big city on my way here*

*find a rifle early and start investing points into rifle perks and building rifle ammo*

*build myself a snipertower in my base complete with lights so that I see the zombies*

*continue game*

If you honestly cant see the difference, you are blinded by your goal of the game.

I'm not saying that A17 can'T be a good foundation for the game you want to make.

But LBD is the far superior system and everyone who says differently is wrong. (Not saying that if they enjoy it they are wrong. Enjoyment is subjective. Possibilities and enabling of playstyles is objective.) It wasn't perfect. It had big flaws and maybe A18+ will be better than A16. But the basic IDEA of LBD is superior to a basic leveling system.

 
@Sirillion ain't that the purpose of the forum? :)

I know the game can't cater to everyone.

I just believe that users feedback helps building a better product.

I've heard great things on the opposing side, from Roland notably.

 
@Sirillion ain't that the purpose of the forum? :) I know the game can't cater to everyone.

I just believe that users feedback helps building a better product.

I've heard great things on the opposing side, from Roland notably.
Well, should AtomicUs5000, Viktoriousiii, you and a few others get their will just because they post dozens upon dozen of posts. If yes, I'll invest my free time to praise the advantages of perk points again and again and I know a few others who would join me. Lets have a useless shouting match then, because it proves nothing.

Should they get their will because their arguments are objectively better? Well, depending on who you ask, they are not better.

TFP surely argued it internally for quite a while since it was additional work at the time (and I remember MM mentioning this a while ago). They probably also had a lot more details to think about like which would be less work further on with features they still planned, internal engine limitations... . Somewhere in that process they made a (to them at this point in time) final decision. This is their right. They want to make their game, not yours. Even if history later shows you were right and their game would have sold more with LBD, it still is their decision whether they make the game they dreamed to do or the game that made more money. I know Electronic Arts would go for more money.

Yes, nobody can be absolutely sure how firm TPF are behind any of their ideas. Sometimes years later an old idea resurfaces. But normally the conditions and presumptions changed over the time. For example digging zombies were tried once and with the zombie AI and maybe other parameters at that time simply failed to work in the game. So they removed it again. If users had made hundreds of post or polls to argue for digging zombies it probably wouldn't have changed TFP's decision at that time (just guessing, I wasn't here at that time).

In A17 they got a new AI and suddenly digging zombies were implemented. But that doesn't mean that it would have been useful for us players to post arguments upon arguments pro digging at that time. AT THAT TIME digging zombies were definitely out, no user feedback necessary.

Some players don't see the changed conditions and interpret such cases as a weakness they can exploit. Just nag ang nag and maybe they get their will. Does that mean such feedback helps build a better product even if it works?

So TFP has the problem that some things really are final, some are not. But no matter how often they say "This decision is final" some players don't believe them. Well, moving this thread out is another big hint. I'm sure some of you will interpret it as them getting nervous and continue to drone on and on with the same arguments. In my view the only result will be either the developers simply ignoring the forum again (they can easily, they did it for most of A17 development) or more work for Roland to move your posts.

 
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Lets have a useless shouting match then, because it proves nothing.
As far as popularity goes, I think it's safe to say that LBD is objectively far more popular. Even if the poll divided the LBD sentiment's popularity to "A16 LBD" and "pure LBD" (which has little point because people have only experienced the former), the result was greatly in favor of having LBD in general. And I think that the forum is a decent enough pool, which one can draw conclusions from, and compared to other places I don't think there is a reason for it to be biased towards one or the other.

As far as arguments go, one can say that everything is subjective (imo it is not, if they can be explained by global standards), but it can't be helped, since each person understands and interprets them differently and most interpret what they want to interpret... So arguments no matter how good they are, are useless...

As far as rolling back goes, it should suck for TFP to have to roll back everything they did considering how much they believed in this decision for A17, even if they don't so much at the moment. They would probably need to scrap assets, code etc. Unless they find a way to fully utilize the current ones and decide to get some light LBD elements into the game in the future (like attribute training or smth else that fits).

 
It would be even better if people took all their LBD disussion to the mod threads.
...so it can be ignored.

This is true, but the thing is that many of us who enjoyed LBD more understood this flaw and acknowledged it. We thought that a hybrid system was best and we voted that way in the poll.
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates

32% like perks only

48% like hybrid

24% like LBD only

By going hybrid you get 48% approval, plus you are making the other categories at least partially approve. Let's say half of each would be disappointed but still ok with it. So add in 16% and 12%.

There should theoretically be somewhere around a 76% approval rating when going Hybrid.

You make the hybrid system such that LBD skill is LBD skill and perks are perks. Either could be good enough, but to be a master you max it out both ways.

You can do that with hybrid.

That's why you go hybrid.

HYBRID: Not as limiting, more immersive, more freedom, less gamey.
Funny how the people advocating for the skill based LBD system from 16.4 get treated like the vocal minority ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s and shoved off into a side thread when it turns out the bulk of the players actually want that kind of hybrid system.

 
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It severely limits player choice. Do anything fun get xp, buy what you want with that xp, not be locked into repetitive grindy actions that force you to do stupid things like get stabbed to improve your armor ability.
That's something I never understood. Why should the armor improve by being attacked? A bulletproof vest doesn't get better just because you shoot at it. A bulletproof vest gets better because people invest work, time and intelligence to improve it. Exactly what you simulate with the mods.

On the other hand, stamina and strength increase when you often do heavy work as the body adapts to it. If you run a lot in heavy armour then you get used to the weight and there is also an adjustment through the body. An example for LBD.

You could combine LBD in a meaningful way with the mods and the skill tree.

 
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That's something I never understood. Why should the armor improve by being attacked? A bulletproof vest doesn't get better just because you shoot at it. A bulletproof vest gets better because people use work, time and intelligence to improve it. Exactly what you simulate with the mods.
On the other hand, stamina and strength increase when you often do heavy work as the body adapts to it. If you run a lot in heavy armour then you get used to the weight and there is also an adjustment through the body. An example for LBD.

You could combine LBD in a meaningful way with the mods and the skill tree.
LBD wont come back. No matter how much we write. So dont even try to give examples. They wont listen.

But we can still try and explain how they are wrong. That LBD is something incredibly special and they've let it go to waste.

And about the armor:

You do improve. Well not directly when hit (although maybe a bit because you know how to turn to block more damage) but rather while wearing it. You start changing your movement to better suit the armor.

Wear cloth? Freedom of movement but also dependant on dodging. Wear full metal? Hinges and plates dont allow for full movement making you slower and your hits weaker until you learn the best way to use it.

A knight who is in full plate armor will know how to move and how to turn his body in a fight to block most damage, while you probably struggle even to move forewards.

He didnt go chop 500 trees and was suddenly magicially gifted with the armor.

 
Censorship.
Move the uncomfortable discussion far away from the thread that matters.
The A18 thread is for discussion of A18 features. Madmole repeated himself several times that LBD would not be an A18 feature and asked for people to take the topic elsewhere. The same dozen people chose to ignore him and continue to to bring it up. All of the opinions can still be read and General Discussions isn't some dark corner of the forums.

This
Learn by nerfing , quite ironic i suppose, given the subject! Ignoring the people who gave the game its start and are STILL active and know the game inside out in favour of new money.

Maybe TFP are tiring of the development themselves, given the change in attitude towards longer standing members lately, food for thought!
Nobody was ignored. There was a lot of debate in which Madmole participated. Just because the pro-LBD faction failed to convince him doesn't mean he didn't consider it. He isn't the only one on the dev team against LBD. It wasn't solely his decision but he is the one who ultimately said, "LBD is not going to happen" and at that point the debate was over in that thread.

Wow, this isn't even up for debate apparently. :(
It was. Go back further in the thread and you can read it all. At the end of the debate Madmole informed us of TFP's decision. Yet, some continued. Madmole then said to take the discussion elsewhere. Those same people continued.

Funny how the people advocating for the skill based LBD system from 16.4 get treated like the vocal minority ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s and shoved off into a side thread when it turns out the bulk of the players actually want that kind of hybrid system.
TFP have shown time and again their willingness to listen to the community but there are times that they will listen to themselves despite what the community demands. It doesn't matter who is in the majority at times like this. TFP has listened to the pro-LBD arguments. Madmole responded several times and ultimately gave the answer. But I am glad that at least you can see the humor in it all.

 
Funny how the people advocating for the skill based LBD system from 16.4 get treated like the vocal minority ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥s and shoved off into a side thread when it turns out the bulk of the players actually want that kind of hybrid system.
Funny how some people advocating for a change claim to be speaking for the majority, when having no objective basis for doing so.....

....and I say that as some who prefers LBD too. I just don't claim that my preference is anyone else's but my own.

 
Funny how some people advocating for a change claim to be speaking for the majority, when having no objective basis for doing so.....
....and I say that as some who prefers LBD too. I just don't claim that my preference is anyone else's but my own.
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates/page21

72.21% is definatly the majority. It is more than 2/3rds.

And yes casual players may not mind this change (because they dont care about the game, because they never played with lbd or whyever) but those dont care about most changes. The ones who do care are the important ones.

60% positive on steam is like... abysmal! And that is for 17.2 so no "bugs and premature rants" excuses ;)

 
https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?97336-Perks-System-and-Level-Gates/page21
72.21% is definatly the majority. It is more than 2/3rds.

And yes casual players may not mind this change (because they dont care about the game, because they never played with lbd or whyever) but those dont care about most changes. The ones who do care are the important ones.

60% positive on steam is like... abysmal! And that is for 17.2 so no "bugs and premature rants" excuses ;)
That poll was just an interest poll. It was not conducted to drive design decisions. Yes, the majority of the people who took the poll want LBD. That fact has failed to change TFP's mind. And the low rating is almost entirely because of poor performance and horrendous RWG because you are right that new players have no idea what LBD is.

 
Yes, never mind the low rating - their updates are not modular, many different changes are being made at the same time so it's hard to discern the main causes.

But the poll is an actual piece of data that indicates the popularity of LBD, right? And yes, TFP shouldn't cave in to everything the community says - that would be terrible for any game. I just personally wish I had seen a single convincing reason supporting that decision, but instead I see reasons such as...

It severely limits player choice. Do anything fun get xp, buy what you want with that xp, not be locked into repetitive grindy actions that force you to do stupid things like get stabbed to improve your armor ability.
...which, forgive me but, could even be refuted convincingly by a brick wall.

Funny how some people advocating for a change claim to be speaking for the majority, when having no objective basis for doing so.....
....and I say that as some who prefers LBD too. I just don't claim that my preference is anyone else's but my own.
Yes, but the one you quoted did base his claim on a piece of data. Shouldn't you have to discredit that, before discrediting his claim?

 
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That poll was just an interest poll. It was not conducted to drive design decisions. Yes, the majority of the people who took the poll want LBD. That fact has failed to change TFP's mind. And the low rating is almost entirely because of poor performance and horrendous RWG because you are right that new players have no idea what LBD is.
Are

you

serious

???

530 voices is "just an interest poll"? That is like about 1/10th of active players. The fact that this did nothing to change their mind (coupled with all the arguments on the forums) should be concerning.

The low rating is because the game is just less fun.

I said it like 10 times already. It has nearly no replayability, is stripped of its original charme and core features got changed for the worse.

All related to the perk system.

But I do grant you that a big chunk is also about beeing frustrated with tfps for continously ignoring fan feedback on important matters and doing their own thing. Which is a double edged sword.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/251570/7_Days_to_Die/#app_reviews_hash

They all talk how the game has lost its charm and is just a simple xp grind. And it will stay this way with this perksystem. Because even the "xp by time" approach i just read about makes this game boring because you have to wait until you can level.

I am a quick player. Some ppl have a bow and a little hut when I have an ak best armor and 40k dukes. But with this approach I will be held back until I have played as much as that one guy who just started and doesnt know how to find ressources.

As soon as you make it "perk" or "point" bound, it will be tied to xp. And xp will be the main currency for progress. There is no way around it.

 
As far as popularity goes, I think it's safe to say that LBD is objectively far more popular. Even if the poll divided the LBD sentiment's popularity to "A16 LBD" and "pure LBD" (which has little point because people have only experienced the former), the result was greatly in favor of having LBD in general. And I think that the forum is a decent enough pool, which one can draw conclusions from, and compared to other places I don't think there is a reason for it to be biased towards one or the other.
(Yeah and because of a poll GB leaves the EU. If the poll was done today, projections say it would be different. In the 16th century a lot of polls (for or against slavery, womens votes, monarchy) would have resulted in quite different results than today. A vote which brand of limonade tastes better will also depend on circumstances like the temperature each limonade has. The outcome of a presidential vote in the US also depends on how the voting districts and countries are parcelated.)

1. A17 had lots of problems (like lots of missing mods and high end items, magazines not a good substitute to books) that also made the perks system look bad. Probably even the bad game performance influenced the poll somewhat.

2. The active people here in the forums are a self-selected crowd of people who were drawn to the part of the game that already was implemented. Since RPG features came last, the RPG crowd is probably under-represented.

3. Nostalgia is also quite rampant. You look back at the old times (when the game was fresh and everything new), forget the bad moments and glorify the good. Evidence of this can be seen practically every alpha. The more is changed the bigger the nostalgia.

4. People against something are more likely to act, post and vote in a non-mandatory poll. Absolutely pure bias.

Yes, I'm arguing the validity of the result. It is just an inofficial biased poll. And the bias will always be there. And yes, if it had a different outcome I would point to the poll like you do, as an indicator. But biased? Hell, yes, no denying that. I don't expect TFP to follow the poll, even if it went in my direction.

Next stop A18, we'll see whether a poll then has a different outcome.

As far as arguments go, one can say that everything is subjective (imo it is not, if they can be explained by global standards), but it can't be helped, since each person understands and interprets them differently and most interpret what they want to interpret... So arguments no matter how good they are, are useless...
With games there is a ■■■■ high share of subjectivity, not the least because of tastes. For a survival player a safe area in this game is objectively a bug founded on his subjective tastes, for a sandbox player a safe area in this game is objectively a good thing founded on his subjective tastes. As arguments go, LBD AND perks have both proven to be successful working game concepts, objective problems can surface in actual implementations.

Is a strategy game better turn-based or real-time? I for myself can give the objective answer turn-based and can argue why it is. The reasons are still based on my personal tastes and abilities, not on any universal objective truth.

LBD was argued over ever since A16 replaced A15, not just since A17. Do you really see any new arguments have emerged? How long should TFP listen to this merry-go-round if they have decided to go for perks at least until A18? Even if you feel they haven't judged your arguments right, how long does it make sense to argue with a vegetarian over your belief that meat is good?

 
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