Jars one time use, need the crucible and smell ruins stealth even more.

[meganoth]

"Whenever stealth breaks" or some such. It's not a binary in this game, but "whenever there's more than 1 zed aware of my stealthed presence". One I could still consider stealth, and do try to kill with keeping stealth active; more than 1 coming for me is usually a "get up and shoot" -type of a deal. I don't like getting hit

I don't really stealth the outdoors, nowadays. And while I'll take a sneak shot at any zed I can, it's just happenstance most of the time; I press stealth only to take the shot after I spot something. I don't sneak, because I don't accidentally agro most things without it either. Low tier POIs I treat basically the same; I might sneak across obvious room borders, but I don't even try sneaking all the time. If I get a few free shots in, great. If I have to break silence to create distance, it's not like I'm triggering anyone else, so .. so be it.

The duct stuff has probably been modified, we now also have walking sleepers. But in a way, just because some of the active zeds are unaware of you, you can't really change behavior based on that - The Others are coming... and the ones that aren't aware die just the same


Hmm. Depends. Not necessarily "easier", but a whole lot more efficient. Early on the fights are usually small enough to Bone Knife your way through, so fleeing is completely pointless. There you could do it, but don't have a reason to. And the reset timer is still long as you haven't specced it.

Middle tier, sometimes you do get to clean up a Mortician's Basement 100% sneakily; that's quite effective (and broken ). Sometimes you drop face to face with a Grace and can't flee, sometimes you trigger a group and can flee. But even if you do retreat, manual cleanup becomes tedious. Just throw a rock in a corner and follow it up with a few nades, sure Stealthy? I'm not so sure ..

Once you get to the big boy pulls in T5/T6, you usually have the firepower to just mow most of it down. That's nothing major, like 4/5 Run & Gun and an SMG. And you won't have a place to retreat to, and even if you do, you don't have peace as there's a delayed spawn rolling in. Might as well roll with the punches. Have to, most of the time.

So.. easier? Not really. But fleeing for re-stealth doesn't really offer much benefit, any in practice. Even for the stealth build, which is trading some power for the stealth ability. From there, grabbing that power is just more generally applicable.


Currently I kinda treat stealth the same as I complained about TFP treating the Jar-toggle; it's there, you can use it, but don't blame me if you broke your character doing so...


EDIT: Trying to fatten me up for xmas @Fritzl ?
Please do join the convo if you think I'm significantly wrong, I won't bite unless you ask nicely.

AGI allows you 2 different fight modes, run-and-gun and sneaking. Seems you are mostly playing run-and-gun, especially as it is faster (ALL combat styles in 7d2d are faster than stealth combat). And if there is an experienced player who often also knows the layout and the traps of POIs already, run-and-gun is probably more efficient as well.

But if someone is not that good in actiony combat, running may be the much safer route. And I would say in early game as well where there are occasions where overpowering enemies are sometimes thrown at you. Example: The booby bar(?) POI, a tier2 POI where it seems a (green) soldier is spawned no matter the gamestage. I needed 2 deaths with run-and-gun/knife, all ammo I had saved and a safe spot to kill him. That may be a POI balance bug though, but dog hordes, glowies or a bear at night are not something I can dispatch with run-and-gun and a pistol with limited ammo

No place to retreat to? Seems you haven't tried stealth really. Lazman said they or at least he tries to add places for stealth builds to trigger rooms in POIs. Also you can always build your own retreat route and safe spot. There is always a high wall you can place wooden ladders on. And I have always wooden ladders in my inventory and placing them somewhere is a matter of seconds.

The things is: If stealth were as fast and efficient as run-and-gun, would it still be as fun (for me at least)?

 

[theFlu]

AGI allows you 2 different fight modes, run-and-gun and sneaking.

In a way, yes, but RnG stands alone, works for every place and challenge. Sneaking relies on you having RnG for the big battles. Trying to avoid action combat... Try Fort, stand still and keep the power attack button down... Or Int with the baton.


I haven't tried stealth? That hujts; I thought calling people scrubs wasn't nice, by your standards?

But all right, I'll do a couple trial runs and describe them; you can tell me where I'm going wrong. I've played 1 day in 2.5; for clear quest I did a residential place (Reed Residence). Ends with a drop from the attic, into a room with three zeds, two of them sleeping under the key rack that opens the door. The stealth way to do that doesn't sound too sneaky to me .. I'll use that save to test, brb.

Spoiler: Storytime

Hi; I hope you're not actually reading this. But if you're curious...

Went back in, wiggled the time back to d1 21:00, respecced my points into stealth; equipped my Bone Knife. (Made a backup copy of course)

Try 1:

1st room, pitch black, saw sleepers in the back, tried sneaking to them for a knife kill. Almost, but no sneak damage. Agroed 2 by that, 4 headshots each, no damage taken. One sneak kill in the next basement room with a bow.

DEaD by a nighttime random feral; he dug thru a wall after me opening a closet door on the ground floor. Sneaky ■■■■■■■. Limit testing since he was messing my test... Managed to die to a bleed after applying a bandage, limit found

Try 2 (retreat):
2 Bow kills in basement, 1 sneak backstab, couldn't hit the head due to sitting position but she glitched into the floor-T-pose..
Ground floor, sneaking around a toilet door agroed one in the far back of the living room. Took a hit and a sprained leg for trying not to flee and agro the toilet. Poop knife!
Up to attic, headshot from bow didn't kill Darlene. Follow-up did. Brightness at 0, 23:00, I can see just fine.
Go time.. buffed up, dropped down stealthed. Agro before I hit the floor. Three zeds. All right, "retreat". Fumble with the key hit box. Torch out as it doesn't matter. Sprint out the open front door. Locked open, can't close it.. hide around a corner. Moe loses agro, two others beating their way out .. of the open room. 20 secs later, Arlene makes it out, beelines to me straight past Moe. Flee around the next corner, she ain't giving up. Eff it, stabbies exchanged. Stripper now beelining from the same direction, Moe got interested again. Figured I'd loop "through" the high porch to buy some distance; decide to run inside instead, jump looked sketch. Both zeds still in pursuit, nowhere to hide, stabbity the stripper in the kitchen. Only Moe left, retreat into the garage to see if he'll reset. After a minute of repairing the door, he does; but I'm sealed in the garage so can't really exploit it. He hears me opening the door, and I'll be waiting for another reset. Another 40 secs pass, Moe gives up again. Open the door, unnoticed. Toss a couple pebbles to draw Moe into an attackable position. Success, he waddles past the door. Take the shot, get the sneak damage, but no kill. Retreat back into the garage. No agro thou, so back to tossing stones. No sight of Moe, but the rocks have drawn in a couple more nearby. An Arlene agroes, stabbity stab, "this is an extra, whatever". Hits taken, Moe agroes from sounds. Back into the garage, Moe drops quick. Back out, toss a stone, get another headshot; moe is down. The building is Clear!

All of that, or just stab'em ...?

Try 3 (don't take the drop):
Basement, 3 clean stealth kills (easy spawns)
Ground floor.. fumbled to hubris. A spawn behind the one block in kitchen, missed entirely; agroed 2. Retreat to basement, a lot of dodging, no hits taken. Should've, tbh. Close a door, hide behind and wait.. They give up, meter still yellow. Ok, green in a few secs. Zero ways to sneak attack from here, without going out and breaking in from another direction. Let's try a rock: toss one in the basement to get them to break the door and waddle on to the rock; choose a decent spot for that. The rock draws another from outside. The POI zeds take their sweet time, but finally break the door. They run to the rock, I take a stealth shot and miss due to twitchy fingers; both turn to me instantly. The outsider is mentally blocking the "backwards" direction, and thus I'm kinda cornered by the two. Just Stabbity stab, crouched in the corner. They block one another, so it's just 2 consecutive 1v1:s, neither of them can get a hit in (low pain tolerance for regular zeds).
So, I was able to "lose" them, but couldn't utilize that in any way. Just manning up upstairs would've been exactly the same, just two minutes faster.
Back on ground floor, the outsider is trying dig through the floor to get to the rock. Brains aren't the strong suite. Stabbity.
Attic, 1 trivial sneak kill. Back down. Break the back door for an exit, break the loot room door. Thru the gap in the door, see two sleepies. Wave a torch in their faces, nothing, no reaction. Slap the torch on the wall. Dispatch those two; third one argoes the instant I open the flimsy door she's hiding behind. Prolly my bad, should've broken it with a bow from a distance. Last mob, just eating a couple hits; cba trying to reset even for a test
Clearing the loot room like this isn't a stealth option, just smart. Got the sneak shots since the zeds DGAF me breaching a door next to their ears. Nor about the torch singeing their nostril hairs.

Try 4 (just for sports):
Basement, 2 trivial sneak kills. Third, a janitor, copped an arrow to the head and ran off breaking the route onwards open. Waited a while, he calmed down, tossed a rock in the living room to find him. Missed the sneak shot, a stab in the face works. Realize I'm again standing between two sleepers Easyish head shots. A sporadic moment of darkness, used a torch at distance to figure out how to shoot one of them. An outside Moe got bored trying to break in. Help him thru anyway to get him out of my hair.
Attic, get agroed from not being able to sneak up on ladders. Stabbity stab.
Loot room, bust the door open from outside without stealth, no attention (didn't enter the trigger volume yet). Crouch down, stab Moe in the head, doesn't die, glitches into the floor. Marlene in the literal next block carries on sleeping while Moe bleeds to death. Sad Moe noises.
Stab the standing Marlene in the head, she doesn't die to my 5.5x damage, but doesn't really move either. I swing another time before thinking about observing, well, too late. Guess she got stunned by the first hit, but can't really tell.
One sleepy stripper snoring in the last room, testing if she wakes from jumping and swinging .. she does Stabbity.

Overall, a few easy sneak kills, more weird glitches than that though.. but I'll repeat, "all of that, or just stab'em?"

 

[meganoth]

In a way, yes, but RnG stands alone, works for every place and challenge. Sneaking relies on you having RnG for the big battles. Trying to avoid action combat... Try Fort, stand still and keep the power attack button down... Or Int with the baton.


I haven't tried stealth? That hujts; I thought calling people scrubs wasn't nice, by your standards?

But all right, I'll do a couple trial runs and describe them; you can tell me where I'm going wrong. I've played 1 day in 2.5; for clear quest I did a residential place (Reed Residence). Ends with a drop from the attic, into a room with three zeds, two of them sleeping under the key rack that opens the door. The stealth way to do that doesn't sound too sneaky to me .. I'll use that save to test, brb.

Spoiler: Storytime

Hi; I hope you're not actually reading this. But if you're curious...

Went back in, wiggled the time back to d1 21:00, respecced my points into stealth; equipped my Bone Knife. (Made a backup copy of course)

Try 1:

1st room, pitch black, saw sleepers in the back, tried sneaking to them for a knife kill. Almost, but no sneak damage. Agroed 2 by that, 4 headshots each, no damage taken. One sneak kill in the next basement room with a bow.

DEaD by a nighttime random feral; he dug thru a wall after me opening a closet door on the ground floor. Sneaky ■■■■■■■. Limit testing since he was messing my test... Managed to die to a bleed after applying a bandage, limit found

Try 2 (retreat):
2 Bow kills in basement, 1 sneak backstab, couldn't hit the head due to sitting position but she glitched into the floor-T-pose..
Ground floor, sneaking around a toilet door agroed one in the far back of the living room. Took a hit and a sprained leg for trying not to flee and agro the toilet. Poop knife!
Up to attic, headshot from bow didn't kill Darlene. Follow-up did. Brightness at 0, 23:00, I can see just fine.
Go time.. buffed up, dropped down stealthed. Agro before I hit the floor. Three zeds. All right, "retreat". Fumble with the key hit box. Torch out as it doesn't matter. Sprint out the open front door. Locked open, can't close it.. hide around a corner. Moe loses agro, two others beating their way out .. of the open room. 20 secs later, Arlene makes it out, beelines to me straight past Moe. Flee around the next corner, she ain't giving up. Eff it, stabbies exchanged. Stripper now beelining from the same direction, Moe got interested again. Figured I'd loop "through" the high porch to buy some distance; decide to run inside instead, jump looked sketch. Both zeds still in pursuit, nowhere to hide, stabbity the stripper in the kitchen. Only Moe left, retreat into the garage to see if he'll reset. After a minute of repairing the door, he does; but I'm sealed in the garage so can't really exploit it. He hears me opening the door, and I'll be waiting for another reset. Another 40 secs pass, Moe gives up again. Open the door, unnoticed. Toss a couple pebbles to draw Moe into an attackable position. Success, he waddles past the door. Take the shot, get the sneak damage, but no kill. Retreat back into the garage. No agro thou, so back to tossing stones. No sight of Moe, but the rocks have drawn in a couple more nearby. An Arlene agroes, stabbity stab, "this is an extra, whatever". Hits taken, Moe agroes from sounds. Back into the garage, Moe drops quick. Back out, toss a stone, get another headshot; moe is down. The building is Clear!

All of that, or just stab'em ...?

Try 3 (don't take the drop):
Basement, 3 clean stealth kills (easy spawns)
Ground floor.. fumbled to hubris. A spawn behind the one block in kitchen, missed entirely; agroed 2. Retreat to basement, a lot of dodging, no hits taken. Should've, tbh. Close a door, hide behind and wait.. They give up, meter still yellow. Ok, green in a few secs. Zero ways to sneak attack from here, without going out and breaking in from another direction. Let's try a rock: toss one in the basement to get them to break the door and waddle on to the rock; choose a decent spot for that. The rock draws another from outside. The POI zeds take their sweet time, but finally break the door. They run to the rock, I take a stealth shot and miss due to twitchy fingers; both turn to me instantly. The outsider is mentally blocking the "backwards" direction, and thus I'm kinda cornered by the two. Just Stabbity stab, crouched in the corner. They block one another, so it's just 2 consecutive 1v1:s, neither of them can get a hit in (low pain tolerance for regular zeds).
So, I was able to "lose" them, but couldn't utilize that in any way. Just manning up upstairs would've been exactly the same, just two minutes faster.
Back on ground floor, the outsider is trying dig through the floor to get to the rock. Brains aren't the strong suite. Stabbity.
Attic, 1 trivial sneak kill. Back down. Break the back door for an exit, break the loot room door. Thru the gap in the door, see two sleepies. Wave a torch in their faces, nothing, no reaction. Slap the torch on the wall. Dispatch those two; third one argoes the instant I open the flimsy door she's hiding behind. Prolly my bad, should've broken it with a bow from a distance. Last mob, just eating a couple hits; cba trying to reset even for a test
Clearing the loot room like this isn't a stealth option, just smart. Got the sneak shots since the zeds DGAF me breaching a door next to their ears. Nor about the torch singeing their nostril hairs.

Try 4 (just for sports):
Basement, 2 trivial sneak kills. Third, a janitor, copped an arrow to the head and ran off breaking the route onwards open. Waited a while, he calmed down, tossed a rock in the living room to find him. Missed the sneak shot, a stab in the face works. Realize I'm again standing between two sleepers Easyish head shots. A sporadic moment of darkness, used a torch at distance to figure out how to shoot one of them. An outside Moe got bored trying to break in. Help him thru anyway to get him out of my hair.
Attic, get agroed from not being able to sneak up on ladders. Stabbity stab.
Loot room, bust the door open from outside without stealth, no attention (didn't enter the trigger volume yet). Crouch down, stab Moe in the head, doesn't die, glitches into the floor. Marlene in the literal next block carries on sleeping while Moe bleeds to death. Sad Moe noises.
Stab the standing Marlene in the head, she doesn't die to my 5.5x damage, but doesn't really move either. I swing another time before thinking about observing, well, too late. Guess she got stunned by the first hit, but can't really tell.
One sleepy stripper snoring in the last room, testing if she wakes from jumping and swinging .. she does Stabbity.

Overall, a few easy sneak kills, more weird glitches than that though.. but I'll repeat, "all of that, or just stab'em?"

You didn't put much thought into your test, did you?

I needed some time to learn stealth combat, what works and what not. If I did a test with run-and-gun without learning the pitfalls I can guarantee you I would be hit often or killed as well. Actually I was killed a few times already in run-and-gun situations because I let myself be pinned in corners or underestimating the hitpoints and numbers of enemies. Because I relied too much on standing there and shooting when I should have run around in the room. In other words didn't think out what run-and-gun really means. I could identify the mistakes I made in the heat of the battle after I died, though by then it was too late.

First of all, it seems you made the test in early game. At that time sneaking to any zombie to stab him with a knife will very likely fail because your stealthing perk isn't high enough. You have to use the bow every time. Later in the game, with stealth perked up you really can kill (lower-than-your-level) zombies with a knife if you **rush** them stealthed. Practically I use the bow almost exclusively for stealth-kills and the knife/machete only in circumstances where a zombie is already near me and still sleeping (for example when he was hidden behind a corner)

Secondly I seldom drop down to some room without either building the way out **before** jumping down with ladders or being resolved to shoot/melee in case of emergency (i.e. mix in run-and-gun or most often stand-your-ground). I will do the latter only in "simple" situations, for example when the room is small and looks safe (often I know the POI already and know that I can shortcut the security measures). When I smell a trap or trigger room, for example with a keyed or unknown exit I will never jump down without having a ladder hanging down that I can reach.
Seriously, how can you do run-to-restealth if you don't have a safe and known way to run first?

Also, in practice I don't try to stealth-kill every zombie and I said as much in one of my previous posts. One simple zombie that gets aggroed I will simply shoot or melee down, sometimes even with the bow, while he is running at me. Since I sit there stealthed and all guns I have have silencer in it or I use the silent machete I can usually keep it between this one zombie and me. This kill though can be counted as neither stealth-kill or run-and-gun, I practically make a stand like a fortitude player, just that I try to not wake up other zombies while doing that.
And when I have a closed door between them and me I naturally try to shoot or stab them through the door while they are banging on it. I don't run to re-stealth but use a good opportunity.

 

[theFlu]

Did you intentionally ruin your test or did you just not put much thought into it?

Well, you got me; the "calling it a test" -part was a bit of a joke, continuation from you telling me I don't stealth. Probably funnier in my head.

I mainly went in to testing mode to see if I could figure out what exactly is my issue with stealth. I've tested it plenty over the years, argued with the mods about etc etc; I know I can't accomplish much in an hour or two there Sadly, I couldn't figure out much more than I already tried to articulate. So, it wasn't "ruined", just not highly successful either.

At that time sneaking to any zombie to stab him with a knife will likely fail because your stealthing perk isn't high enough.

This is somewhat untrue. For a zed that isn't looking at your direction, you have a pretty decent chance of getting close enough. D1 yes, so only 2 points in stealth - but I did manage at least 4 knife attacks in the test, and I wasn't trying them a lot as you do need a good angle. Failed less than I succeeded. Bow is obviously easier, but stabs are more fun - probably exactly for the elevated risk, the damage isn't much greater.

Secondly I seldom drop down to some room without either building the way out **before** jumping down with ladders

Sure, if I'm afraid of the upcoming fight, I prep something. I wasn't afraid of these. And even in these tests, I dropped down once, and just busted open the door the rest of the time. That's the easy way anyway, the drop in question is a complete mess to clear, the door has 250 HP. But TFP spends so much effort to make sure that you can't just slap a ladder into a drop that doing so feels like cheating. The keys are usually obvious, so a lot of the time the best "retreat" isn't backwards, it's out of the intended exit.

But that's a bit of a balance issue as well... stealth can't be allowed to easily retreat, because then everyone can. PER being stuck in a room designed for FORT is a bit of a nightmare though... So to enable the "run away and hide" you have to break the encounter already in advance, in high tier POIs breaking concrete blocks. That's quite cumbersome, and I hardly feel like concrete demolition is the epitome of stealth play

Seriously, how can you run-to-restealth if you don't have a safe and known way to run first?

That's the beauty of games, we are free to push our limits, dying is just a little different pixels on the screen. I feel competent enough with combat and TFP encounter design that I will voluntary hop down every new trap at least once, and often that will become the way I do it anyway. Rarely does That lead to deaths anymore, I die more often doing T1s at night, due to overconfidence and just not giving a proper ■■■■

For a "test of my thinking", I had to drop down at least once, just to feel how it goes nowadays. Felt same as before, so I left it at one.

This kill though can be counted as neither stealth-kill or run-and-gun, I practically make a stand like a fortitude player, just that I try to not wake up other zombies while doing that.

I'd actually count that as decent stealth mechanics; as long as there are other zeds around that will agro if you panic, having to deal with "some" active ones is almost mandatory for good stealth. That's the fail condition where there's still a benefit from sneaking; if you can't fail, is it really game play?
I just don't usually feel any need to swap to guns, and the pipe pistol I had does worse than the bone knife (had 2 point in knives). So it's stabbity for me. As long as you don't miss, you can keep less tanky things from hitting you at all with the bone.

And when I have a closed door between them and me I naturally try to shoot or stab them through the door while they are banging on it. I don't run to re-stealth but use a good opportunity.

This is kinda where I think the run-and-wait tactic fails as a mechanic. If I can hide for 20 secs after a pull, I could just build myself a little fort on the courtyard in that time. I don't really gain anything from waiting, I'm just going to re-agro everything again.


While my test was simple, it served my purpose; reminded me of how the things work. I'm not fan of the run-away part, because it's impossible to actually utilize. And I'm not a fan of not having any benefit from it in a horde night. I think those are the two main issues nowadays, (as teleporting zeds on you -encounter design isn't purely a stealth issue).

 

[meganoth]

Well, you got me; the "calling it a test" -part was a bit of a joke, continuation from you telling me I don't stealth. Probably funnier in my head.

I mainly went in to testing mode to see if I could figure out what exactly is my issue with stealth. I've tested it plenty over the years, argued with the mods about etc etc; I know I can't accomplish much in an hour or two there Sadly, I couldn't figure out much more than I already tried to articulate. So, it wasn't "ruined", just not highly successful either.


This is somewhat untrue. For a zed that isn't looking at your direction, you have a pretty decent chance of getting close enough. D1 yes, so only 2 points in stealth - but I did manage at least 4 knife attacks in the test, and I wasn't trying them a lot as you do need a good angle. Failed less than I succeeded. Bow is obviously easier, but stabs are more fun - probably exactly for the elevated risk, the damage isn't much greater.


Sure, if I'm afraid of the upcoming fight, I prep something. I wasn't afraid of these. And even in these tests, I dropped down once, and just busted open the door the rest of the time. That's the easy way anyway, the drop in question is a complete mess to clear, the door has 250 HP. But TFP spends so much effort to make sure that you can't just slap a ladder into a drop that doing so feels like cheating. The keys are usually obvious, so a lot of the time the best "retreat" isn't backwards, it's out of the intended exit.

But that's a bit of a balance issue as well... stealth can't be allowed to easily retreat, because then everyone can. PER being stuck in a room designed for FORT is a bit of a nightmare though... So to enable the "run away and hide" you have to break the encounter already in advance, in high tier POIs breaking concrete blocks. That's quite cumbersome, and I hardly feel like concrete demolition is the epitome of stealth play


That's the beauty of games, we are free to push our limits, dying is just a little different pixels on the screen. I feel competent enough with combat and TFP encounter design that I will voluntary hop down every new trap at least once, and often that will become the way I do it anyway. Rarely does That lead to deaths anymore, I die more often doing T1s at night, due to overconfidence and just not giving a proper ■■■■

For a "test of my thinking", I had to drop down at least once, just to feel how it goes nowadays. Felt same as before, so I left it at one.


I'd actually count that as decent stealth mechanics; as long as there are other zeds around that will agro if you panic, having to deal with "some" active ones is almost mandatory for good stealth. That's the fail condition where there's still a benefit from sneaking; if you can't fail, is it really game play?
I just don't usually feel any need to swap to guns, and the pipe pistol I had does worse than the bone knife (had 2 point in knives). So it's stabbity for me. As long as you don't miss, you can keep less tanky things from hitting you at all with the bone.


This is kinda where I think the run-and-wait tactic fails as a mechanic. If I can hide for 20 secs after a pull, I could just build myself a little fort on the courtyard in that time. I don't really gain anything from waiting, I'm just going to re-agro everything again.


While my test was simple, it served my purpose; reminded me of how the things work. I'm not fan of the run-away part, because it's impossible to actually utilize. And I'm not a fan of not having any benefit from it in a horde night. I think those are the two main issues nowadays, (as teleporting zeds on you -encounter design isn't purely a stealth issue).

Sorry I misunderstood that, your account just sounded like "Did that, failed. Did that another way, failed again...". If it wasn't meant that way but only as a personal account how it felt for you then my reply can be safely ignored. Obviously if stealth gameplay isn't as much fun for you then there is not much reason to do it.

I agree that the restealth timer seems worthless or at least ignorable. I don't count seconds and usually don't wait at all or maybe for 5 seconds to listen for what happens. Since dangerous trigger-rooms are mostly in tier 4 or 5 POIs I usually have enough "way" to just run around some corners and the zombies can't find me even a few seconds after running away.
Often it is just one single zombie that still knows where I am and he either can be simply gunned down with a silenced gun or he stops and tries to sense where I am just meters away from me. Easy kill with a bow.
Even easier, I often hop to some unreachable place and any zombie still following me just hits a wall in frustration and I can as well kill him with one or two bow shots.

Really, run-and-restealth in practice is a lot easier and faster if you have a bit of experience with it and have a feeling for how far you have to run to get back on the offensive.

 

[theFlu]

Sorry, your account just sounded like "Did that, failed. Did that another way, failed again...". If it wasn't meant that way but only as a personal account how it felt for you then my reply can be safely ignored.

I mean, it was a personal account of me trying to play like people tell me it should be played; maximising stealth use (and escaping) while following the TFP POI design, then breaking the POI design, then leaving out the stealth when unnecessary. If it sounded like a lot of failures, then I guess the things I tried, failed. Went about as I expected, thou

Since dangerous trigger-rooms are mostly in tier 4 or 5 POIs I usually have enough "way" to just run around some corners and the zombies don't find me even a few seconds after running away.

This sounds massively optimistic for my idea of "dangerous T5 trigger rooms"; Grover High roof, you're actually losing enough zeds fast enough to make a difference? If so, there must've been some changes after nerfing the OP assy set bonus, from my tests there, it was a pretty pure "combat area"?

Obviously if stealth gameplay isn't as much fun to you then there is not much reason to do it.

Hmm, I generally enjoy stealth. Even in this game it has its moments, and I've hoped for improvements since the first trigger volumes. But atm I find it too randomly frustrating to really enjoy, and I can't justify gearing and/or speccing for it when it does next to nothing for the hard parts. I still do a decent amount of sneak damage without any speccing/gearing, which reduces the lure of "full stealth" builds further.

 

[meganoth]

I mean, it was a personal account of me trying to play like people tell me it should be played; maximising stealth use (and escaping) while following the TFP POI design, then breaking the POI design, then leaving out the stealth when unnecessary. If it sounded like a lot of failures, then I guess the things I tried, failed. Went about as I expected, thou


This sounds massively optimistic for my idea of "dangerous T5 trigger rooms"; Grover High roof, you're actually losing enough zeds fast enough to make a difference? If so, there must've been some changes after nerfing the OP assy set bonus, from my tests there, it was a pretty pure "combat area"?

My most recent experience was with Area 7. Three large wings going back to a central area and a further place to back up into the train room. I often went into one of the wings, was detected orwent past a trigger, ran back to the central area and it was pretty random how many zombies followed me and whether those still had my exact position. Now running back there from inside one of the wings took maybe 5+ seconds but covered a lot of ground actually when you are fast. It seemed to me that many of the zombies lost the scent because simply the distance was to far and not some timer ran out.

I didn't play Grover recently, but just guessing that jumping down from the roof, reentering and going into some back room could possibly have some success in confusing a lot of them. And should they all jump after you the safest place could be the roof

 

[theFlu]

It seemed to me that many of the zombies lost the scent because simply the distance was to far and not some timer ran out.

That sounds new to me; might have to test.. I didn't even look what the 5/5 skill re-stealth timer actually is now, could be quick. But that all will have to wait a few days.. I should not be sitting here right now

And should they all jump after you the safest place could be the roof

That's the "safe-ish clear" regardless of spec, just break the ladder first and lure the first waves off the roof. Plenty of free kills while they recover from the falls, and at most need to worry about the re-feeders bugging out..

 

[Kyoji]

I think that the big city being in only the wasteland solves your second point - that they should be difficult to be in during the early game. You can go to the wasteland immediately, but most people are probably not going to survive long there if they focus on trying to loot the biggest city in the wasteland on day 1, or even day 7. So there is value in that as far as the point you make.

On the other hand, I also agree with your first point, that the forest is the nicest looking biome and where I normally want to have my main base. So having a big city in the forest would be nice as well. Unfortunately, the new thing that makes your starter quest take you to the town with the most quests (or however it works) just makes this worse if there are large cities in the forest because you are likely to be sent to the biggest town/city in the forest each time instead of a smaller one. I don't use RWG, so I do get large cities in any biome and I like that. But yes... if I start at a big city, I'm probably not going to worry too much about going to any other town for quests. If I start at a smaller one, I may start questing somewhere else after a little while. So there is pros and cons with both options.

In the end, I prefer having any size town in any biome.

That is how it was in earlier in the alphas. The singular city was the Wasteland and everything else was sporadic. It made the city very dangerous and I swear I hate wasps to this day. The downside is the Wasteland looked terrible back then (IMO) with it's green hue and drab looking structures and annoying music choice of bells and piano keys. That being said it was a lot harder earlier on to survive and made going to the wasteland a difficult but practical choice.

If they did make a singular large city in the wasteland I think that would be fine but the towns would need a slight buff to make them larger in the forest as an example, but have restrictions on what POIs are spawned. For example it would be nice if TFP could make some POIs have a biome tag and a city tab to where it is classified as both wasteland and industrial or snow+wasteland and commercial. In that way some POI variety would exist between biomes to also encourage exploration.

Alternatively if they use FlatSpot coding to add in dynamic events outside of cities then it may encourage players to leave the comfortable city scene and go explore the wilderness. This would be compounded if they added T6 POIs to wilderness only such as military bases, etc with legendary weapons.

Just spitballing.

 

[Riamus]

If they did make a singular large city in the wasteland I think that would be fine but the towns would need a slight buff to make them larger in the forest as an example, but have restrictions on what POIs are spawned. For example it would be nice if TFP could make some POIs have a biome tag and a city tab to where it is classified as both wasteland and industrial or snow+wasteland and commercial. In that way some POI variety would exist between biomes to also encourage exploration.

This is already somewhat the case. The largest city is in the wasteland in RWG. However, you can get more than one there. Also, they have many different city/town types, each with different districts and size. Some are in only certain biomes and some are in all biomes. A basic example is the old west towns only being in the desert or the forest towns not having downtown districts. You can add new ones or remove ones you don't want and can change any existing ones if you want to edit rwgmixer.xml. POI are already tagged to work in that kind of way, though many are only limited by district and can appear in every biome.

 

[Rotor]

This is already somewhat the case. The largest city is in the wasteland in RWG.

This parts annoys me. I only do 10% wasteland in center, RWG throws two huge ... I mean, HUGE!...cities in there. Like 45% of the wasteland is two towns.

In a way is okay, it gives that vibe of two Metros got nuked to prevent the spread.....but in a 10k map it would be nice to get a single one in the forest.

 

[Riamus]

This parts annoys me. I only do 10% wasteland in center, RWG throws two huge ... I mean, HUGE!...cities in there. Like 45% of the wasteland is two towns.

In a way is okay, it gives that vibe of two Metros got nuked to prevent the spread.....but in a 10k map it would be nice to get a single one in the forest.

Yeah. I don't like the town progression stuff in RWG. Hopefully when they add all the extra game options, they'll have an option for random towns again.

 

[Old Crow]

I like the new smell system! I also like stealth though. Kind of feel like stealth is one of those things the devs don't really like having in their game, with all the adjustments over the years done to make it less and less effective. Perhaps it's just time to remove it? Or better yet, give the system a better look to improve it in reasonable ways.

 

[Riamus]

I like the new smell system! I also like stealth though. Kind of feel like stealth is one of those things the devs don't really like having in their game, with all the adjustments over the years done to make it less and less effective. Perhaps it's just time to remove it? Or better yet, give the system a better look to improve it in reasonable ways.

But smell doesn't really impact stealth. If you're playing stealth, you aren't going to use something that makes you smell. It isn't like it's a constant smell that attracts zombies. You have complete control over it.

 

[Old Crow]

But smell doesn't really impact stealth. If you're playing stealth, you aren't going to use something that makes you smell. It isn't like it's a constant smell that attracts zombies. You have complete control over it.

True, I guess I don't have to eat if I'm doing a quest.

 

[Riamus]

True, I guess I don't have to eat if I'm doing a quest.

Not normally if you eat before starting a quest unless it takes you particularly long to complete it. But even if you want to eat, it isn't a problem for stealth if you just stop in a location you've cleared out and then eat something. The smell goes away relatively quickly (a couple of minutes or so) and you could use the time to spend perk points you've gotten so far during the quest or organize inventory or whatever. And the smell won't attract zombies that aren't spawned or awake. If you're doing stealth, you're most likely already proceeding more slowly through the POI, so spending a couple of minutes waiting for the smell to go away once in the middle of a quest isn't what I'd consider to break stealth.

 

[Old Crow]

Not normally if you eat before starting a quest unless it takes you particularly long to complete it. But even if you want to eat, it isn't a problem for stealth if you just stop in a location you've cleared out and then eat something. The smell goes away relatively quickly (a couple of minutes or so) and you could use the time to spend perk points you've gotten so far during the quest or organize inventory or whatever. And the smell won't attract zombies that aren't spawned or awake. If you're doing stealth, you're most likely already proceeding more slowly through the POI, so spending a couple of minutes waiting for the smell to go away once in the middle of a quest isn't what I'd consider to break stealth.

Honestly in 2.5 even with 3-4 points in Iron Gut, I still find my hunger depleting a lot quicker than normal, and that's not even my character being cold or freezing.

 

[Kazgrel]

OP making me wonder how many times we'll have to scream "THERE IS A REFUND OPTION" over the coming months/years concerning jars...

I am very much in the "jars should't break all the time" camp, yet I am playing my 2.5 solo run with them at 0% refund because 1. It's how the devs intended it to be and 2. I felt I'd be fine with them being craftable (and I've been screaming to lock jars behind the crucible for years). Once you have a dew collector, jar refund is irrelevant since the collectors still double as 3D printers producing jars themselves. Course the "solution" would be to require the collectors to be filled with empty jars a la the apiary. I made the "mistake" of setting up 2 collectors with full upgrades on them and I legit have more water than I know what to do with. One fully kitted collector is just fine for solo play outside of maybe trying to clear every late game horde only using a rocket launcher and/or explosive bolts and arrows. Keeping enough bones on hand becomes the tough part...or super corn, for that matter.

Smell isn't that much of a factor. I have all settings to it left at default. Main thing of note is to just shove raw meat into some sort of container (such as vehicle inventory) when out and about if you don't have the mats on hand to wrap it. Kinda wonder if they'll enable it to smell when in vehicle inventory, but if that were the case, wouldn't you be able to smell food from anywhere yourself. I only started in A17, so smell was gone by that point. The current implementaion does make you think about where and when you eat, plus dead animals can become an absolute ■■■■ show to harvest when zeds come running like hyenas to a corpse while you go to harvest it before they nom it up.

Doing an agility focused build in this solo run and up thru T3s it's been fantastic. Working on improving gear before I start delving into T4 and T5 POIs, though. The reliance on trigger areas for unavoidable ambushes in those is by far the worst thing they've done to stealth in this game. That said, I do have a goal to clear as many T5s as I can to find strats/tactics on how to contend with that nonsense. Despite my annoyance with it, the trigger areas do make for some spectacular scenes as a massive wave of zeds descends upon you, so it's cool theatrics at least.

 

[Rabbits Love Cactus]

So jars return much like many other features that got removed and somehow they implemented them in the worse way possible by having us yet again eat the jar.

So to craft the jars you need no perks but requires a crucible which is basically max forge ahead. If you manage to find any its a 1 time use which is dumb, who throws away a glass jar that helps contain life saving water in a survival game? Murky water is going to be more difficult to find and somehow with all this water in lakes and rivers we aren't smart enough to use a cooking pot to gather the water.

Frost claw and plague spitter got a reskin but will probably still make living in either the snow or desert biome just as annoying as last time.

The smell feature is going to make living there worse since if you eat food it will just reduce its smell effect by a bit which will still probably attract them and have them throw or spit their attacks at you making living in those biomes even more annoying. Also sorry to stealth players you got shafted big time with that.

I'm certain folks will as usual defend this by rolling with whatever they do but this just seems like another bad update. Going to have to enjoy taking a shower everytime you want to go loot to avoid the smell system. Nothing like adding more tedious things to do before looting.

Yes I know experimental and things will change but if the past few years have proven anything is that they tend to change things for the worse. Oh well I'm sure another sweep of the reviews will have some effect again.

I’ll be honest, I played till about level 50 with jars set to 100%. Then I heard the Pimps say to try it with default settings. So I figured ok, I’ll give it a whirl. Keep in mind that I’ve been playing since alpha 9. I have to be honest, with a 0% return rate, it doesn’t matter. I actually have more jars than I can handle. When looting it keep finding them. To me it seems fine. I do want a little bit of a challenge. I personally think the water filter mod for helmets feels like a cheat and should be removed. I love to use it, but it makes water survival no challenge at all. That’s my take on it.