InfiniteWarrior
Survivor
Yep. Not arguing with you. They could be made more discouraging I suppose, but...why?Ergo they should exists in any biome. Specially in RWG, so we agree.
Jars one time use, need the crucible and smell ruins stealth even more.
- Thread starter Slingblade2040
- Start date
Kyoji
Survivor
Yes. Flat spot code can be used for that but not so much for sub biomes. Flat spot code detects flat spots of land to spawn in things such as the bandits and herds of deer.
Sub-biomes are best left to RWG generation IMO.
The game used to have only one proper city and that was the Wasteland. It encouraged people to go there for the abundant loot.Because in general, in the genre, the cities are the source of neat stuff, but HUGE danger. Discourage early game looters
I have multiple takes on the matter so please endulge me.
For one I think cities in every biome would be good because I enjoy the forest the most and while I think venturing into every biome is neat I still want to be self sufficient in the most beautiful biome we have IMO.
I also think large cities should be more spread out or more rare. While cities are super neat they also provide too much to the player. Everything is solved with cities leading to few reasons to explore outside of them. Ideally, the developers keep cities and give us reasons to explore outside of them, but until then cities single handedly make survival effortless with solutions to every problem a block away.
So not sure what to think of them. They are super neat but also solve every problem. I think the streets would have to be more challenging to balance that fact.
InfiniteWarrior
Survivor
Probably would have been best had the game been set in an urban setting from the start because just about everyone I've seen play it has headed straight to those town and cities and not just for the bike but because the wilderness offers very little in the way of resources or anything else of interest to be honest.
Well, they didn't set it in an urban setting. They made it an open world and an open world should be as accessible as possible, else players are going to feel confined in where they go and what they do whether they actually are or not.
Kyoji
Survivor
I think it important to mention that the devs should take all feedback in but with a grain of salt. After watching Izprebuilts new video he suggests that most of his community wants 100% jar return and when reading his comment section I am pretty sure a majority of them do not even play the game or have become so jaded they can't see the forest for the trees and let small details cloud the bigger picture as all they do is bash the game for the dumbest of reasons.
InfiniteWarrior
Survivor
I think they do. They haven't gone off track that much from what I can tell, though I've had the distinct impression that they watch YouTubers and Streamers and how they play the game to make most of their decisions, e.g. making base building a kind of building a better mouse trap sort of affair because megabase builders do that. But people are actually playing the game as everything from a zombie survival game to a homesteading sim. The on/off options they've provided allow for just about any kind of gameplay or playstyle you can imagine, though stealth has taken quite a hit.
Rotor
Survivor
Again, haven't played it yet, but this alone is a genius move IMO.
InfiniteWarrior
Survivor
When I say, gameplay, I'm referring to those that have been there all along: horde night/no horde night, zombies/no zombies, etc., etc. I've read comments to the effect that a lot of people turn off horde night while they learn the systems, if not permanently, or are even just hanging out in it and tinkering for a while (homesteading, house flipping, camping, etc.) with no zombies or horde nights in sight. They're just using it to chill, iow. That prompted me to test and see how amenable to that it is myself. That's when I really understood the outcry about having a method of water collection from natural sources and why I say people are playing it as everything from a zombie survival game to a homesteading sim and not just how it's designed to be played. It is still a sandbox in that respect. So, the recent effort to make it even more sand boxey certainly won't hurt its appeal.
Rotor
Survivor
Ya, something about walking in another's foot ateps or some such
.Also, ain't been around for long, but on/off toggles, w/o modding, have been requested since I've hung around these here parts.
So, genius move by TFP, and another listening to the community.
Rabbits Love Cactus
Scavenger
For stealth I like how the bar turns yellow if you're detected. That was a good add. But I still miss the cross hair that changes when you crouch. It wasn't broken...why did it get removed. When that got removed it was a very big loss for me. Perhaps bring it back in the form or a perk. That would be great.
Kyoji
Survivor
I wish stealth got a buff to somewhat ignore triggers. Like zombies have a 50% chance to not be triggered while in stealth.
Not sure if that would be too strong, perhaps. But I feel like triggered zombies neutered stealth gameplay quite a bit unless you ignore the pathing in POIs.
Not sure if that would be too strong, perhaps. But I feel like triggered zombies neutered stealth gameplay quite a bit unless you ignore the pathing in POIs.
Thats what into the shadows is for. Instead of being OP and undetected ALL the time, you trigger a volume, retreat and hide, wait till they lose interest and still can pick them off stealthy one by one. I find it a nice challenge to the "im never seen" stealth, which is just to OP.
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Kyoji
Survivor
Yeah I don't want it to be broken but I feel like stealth in general is less efficient.
Why bother with stealth builds when it's often better to go in with other weapons? Especially mid to late game when you get several zombies at once on a trigger.
I feel like with a limited hotbar my loadouts pose an issue to the bow once I get enough ammo to not worry about using firearms in a pinch.
- Primary Melee Weapon
- Firearm
- Pick
- Axe
- Shovel
- Wrench
- Knife
- Bandages
- Pain Killers
- Build Blocks
Even if I ditch the knife which is the least used out of those I would rather have a pistol. Guns blazing means I don't get surprised as much and can kill and move faster without the slow stealth gameplay.
Quite a few people here in the forum (including me) posted they often or exclusively play AGI or stealth builds (not sure how many of those would play it without stealth but in my opinion stealth is what makes AGI interesting in the first place). So I would assume that even if you think stealth isn't worth it there are quite a few people who don't share your opinion. Or play it anyway even if they think it is weaker? We would have to ask them.
I myself have no problem with the triggers, though I don't like some of the "trap" rooms where you need to drop down somewhere and usually die because you have no exit, unless you build one. I always build a ladder based one, but much too often fail at jumping to that ladder when I am getting swarmed. The last time (in area 7) was even worse, I fell down while building the ladder and a tree was in the way of jumping back up, and I died.
By the way, @Laz Man : Did you build area 7? If yes, concrats, what a great hommage to fallout and half life, going through it the first time made my day. If not, give my thanks to the designer, please.
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theFlu
Hunter
TFP's mistake is that they consider "run away" as "stealth". They've managed to confuse some people to think the same. AGI is great at "run away", with of without the stealth perks. But stealth isn't really a thing anymore with every significant fight being about mobs being forcibly aggroed on you.
Mmmh, I can see your point. Even a FOR player can shoot zombies from stealth when he is far enough away and you don't need super stealth for the zombies losing your scent if you just run away far enough. So the advantage of stealth in this situation may be just a much higher success rate at stealthing again.
The other problem here is that it isn't an obvious method new players can reliably find out themselves, often someone has to tell them how to manage trigger rooms as other stealth games don't have this mechanism.
On the other hand, I have a lot of fun fighting that way (in a death-wishing sort of way) and I really don't want the 100% safe stealth back. Having a percentage not wake up could be a solution, I actually thought it might have even be implemented already or they were at least thinking about it??
theFlu
Hunter
From my hazy memory: There's multiple trigger types;
- for the ones where the zeds are spawned in before you cross a trigger line, there's a "per zed" chance of not waking them up.
- for switch -type triggers, everything spawned gets sent at you. (I think these aren't just "on-use" mechanical switches, but also trigger points)
- any delayed spawns (crawling out of vents etc) are automatically on you. These are particularly nasty as even if you "reset" the original pull, every time you kill anything, you'll get a new one sent on you.
And then there's horde nights, of course. The Agi playstyle is fun on its own, no argument there; short range kiting with minimal prep / environment requirements. Heck, even clearing the non-triggered stuff with a 100% success rate is pretty satisfying, but of course it'd be broken if it applied to everything.
But since Agi already "runs away" / evades as the main combat mode, the rare occasion for re-stealthing isn't even that useful; you've killed them by the time they'd reliably reset. So any "break" in stealth feels like an invitation to just man up, because the options for stealth feel pointless.
The timer tweaks don't seem to do much either; the original "stealth set" -bonus showed that 0 secs is OP, but even something like 5 secs feels useless, as you'll just be fighting the mass the same as without. You're kinda comparing the single added stealth shot multiplier versus the damage you're losing with each reset, so for combat purposes the reset timer can't be more than a couple seconds. But that quick takes out any real danger ...
I don't know what to do about it. Stealth would need some combat utility for that in-between; maybe some sort of a flashbang or smoke effects to force zeds into taking sneak damage, or lose interest in a more "player controlled" fashion. Or some such. Something that'd feel stealthy and wouldn't be (all that) useful for non-stealthies.
Riamus
Hunter
I think that the big city being in only the wasteland solves your second point - that they should be difficult to be in during the early game. You can go to the wasteland immediately, but most people are probably not going to survive long there if they focus on trying to loot the biggest city in the wasteland on day 1, or even day 7. So there is value in that as far as the point you make.
On the other hand, I also agree with your first point, that the forest is the nicest looking biome and where I normally want to have my main base. So having a big city in the forest would be nice as well. Unfortunately, the new thing that makes your starter quest take you to the town with the most quests (or however it works) just makes this worse if there are large cities in the forest because you are likely to be sent to the biggest town/city in the forest each time instead of a smaller one. I don't use RWG, so I do get large cities in any biome and I like that. But yes... if I start at a big city, I'm probably not going to worry too much about going to any other town for quests. If I start at a smaller one, I may start questing somewhere else after a little while. So there is pros and cons with both options.
In the end, I prefer having any size town in any biome.
Don't understand what you mean with the "break" in stealth. But when I roam the city streets I kill many zombies stealthed with one shot and even in POIs about one third to half of the zombies can be stealth killed without first running away. Also some zombies that fall out of ducts or were hidden behind panels don't really know where you are exactly, so by simply moving a few meters back they don't detect you anymore and can be shot without any danger.
Are you saying it is easier to kill a triggered horde directly instead of stealth? I don't have that impression. Making a stand would be a death sentence for me, shooting while running works but is a lot more dangerous than trying to stealth again
theFlu
Hunter
"Whenever stealth breaks" or some such. It's not a binary in this game, but "whenever there's more than 1 zed aware of my stealthed presence". One I could still consider stealth, and do try to kill with keeping stealth active; more than 1 coming for me is usually a "get up and shoot" -type of a deal. I don't like getting hit
I don't really stealth the outdoors, nowadays. And while I'll take a sneak shot at any zed I can, it's just happenstance most of the time; I press stealth only to take the shot after I spot something. I don't sneak, because I don't accidentally agro most things without it either. Low tier POIs I treat basically the same; I might sneak across obvious room borders, but I don't even try sneaking all the time. If I get a few free shots in, great. If I have to break silence to create distance, it's not like I'm triggering anyone else, so .. so be it.
The duct stuff has probably been modified, we now also have walking sleepers. But in a way, just because some of the active zeds are unaware of you, you can't really change behavior based on that - The Others are coming... and the ones that aren't aware die just the same
Hmm. Depends. Not necessarily "easier", but a whole lot more efficient. Early on the fights are usually small enough to Bone Knife your way through, so fleeing is completely pointless. There you could do it, but don't have a reason to. And the reset timer is still long as you haven't specced it.
Middle tier, sometimes you do get to clean up a Mortician's Basement 100% sneakily; that's quite effective (and broken
). Sometimes you drop face to face with a Grace and can't flee, sometimes you trigger a group and can flee. But even if you do retreat, manual cleanup becomes tedious. Just throw a rock in a corner and follow it up with a few nades, sure Stealthy? I'm not so sure ..Once you get to the big boy pulls in T5/T6, you usually have the firepower to just mow most of it down. That's nothing major, like 4/5 Run & Gun and an SMG. And you won't have a place to retreat to, and even if you do, you don't have peace as there's a delayed spawn rolling in. Might as well roll with the punches. Have to, most of the time.
So.. easier? Not really. But fleeing for re-stealth doesn't really offer much benefit, any in practice. Even for the stealth build, which is trading some power for the stealth ability. From there, grabbing that power is just more generally applicable.
Currently I kinda treat stealth the same as I complained about TFP treating the Jar-toggle; it's there, you can use it, but don't blame me if you broke your character doing so...
EDIT: Trying to fatten me up for xmas @Fritzl ?
Please do join the convo if you think I'm significantly wrong, I won't bite unless you ask nicely.