PC Is Stealth play viable in late game?

"run and gun" in traprooms? But okay... sure.
That's why it's best to always have an escape route. That's where "Run and Gun" then shows its strength.

But can you do hordenight with only pistols?
You can also do horde nights with the crossbow if you have the right ammo and the right base. Electric fences and explosive bolts are an effective combination.

This also works in principle with pistols. You can also use bars instead of electric fences or a combination of both. This is an obstacle for the zombies, but you can shoot through it.

 
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"run and gun" in traprooms? But okay... sure.


As if this game were full of trap rooms. Actually the trap room in higashi or dishong is big enough to run around and kill them with pistol/magnum/vulture/mp5. You just should avoid getting cornered, that can get you killed even with a shotgun I think.

PS: I always have a few ladders on my belt, in case I have to get out of reach of zombies. A strategie that works for most trap rooms, place a ladder high on the wall, then jump on it.

If I have to drop down into a room I usually place the ladder first, then drop down (whatever build I'm playing)

But can you do hordenight with only pistols?


Yes. Playing agility I always do that (pistols, magnum, mp5 and vulture depending on the progress)

Because even if I grant you that, this only means that you are slower, still need ammo (even though less, granted), don't have safety AND it is useless on hordenights.


I didn't say the game is completely balanced. PER, INT and AGI are more difficult to play as they are not straightforward shooter builds. But I have no problem playing the game as AGI player and I might even die less playing AGI than STR. Because even though most fights with a STR character are very easy, but then occassionally I forget to reload or miss some shots, magazine is empty and I get cornered. Also AGI almost always gives you the option to run away from anything, but with all other builds, even if you notice that it gets hairy, you have to fight it out, retreating often isn't an option.

I do. And you seemingly don't understand the difference between a PC game and a P&P story telling adventure.


A distinction I don't see in this case. A p&p RPG game has much of the same constraints and goals as a computer RPG game.

Actually that is incorrect. Autocrits/Fails are a houserule... at least in D&D. But yes, in the german P&P "The dark Eye" you are actually correct.


Right, the autofail/autohit is only in attack rolls. I think this is even the second time I made this mistake.

Anyway, a less apparent example are the normal skill checks as well. A character below maybe level 12 does not have even one skill high enough (i.e. with +20) to always succeed any skill check, including diplomacy. It is in the nature of an RPG to have skill checks with the chance to fail, otherwise why roll the dice at all?

So even with "ideal play" your level-7 character will always have a very good chance to fail his diplomacy (or any other skill) roll, all the time. And this is true for most RPGs, whether p&p or computer.

But as I said "story telling cooperative adventure" =/= PC game.


What then are "Baldur's Gate" and "Planescape Torment" ? Not PC games?

Don't know the game... sorry. But yes it is also a dicebased game. If the game is ABOUT randomness as a feature, sure. It can be good. But 7D2D isn't.


Is Baldur's Gate a game ABOUT randomness?

And is 7D2D a deterministic game? Weeell, you may not have noticed, but there is an awful lot of randomness in 7D2D 😉

 
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But can you do hordenight with only pistols?


If you are using the default settings, horde night is 6 hours long (22:00 to 4:00) every 7 days.  That is literally just 3.6% of game time for 1 week.  Stealth is a viable option for the remaining 96.4% of the time.

"run and gun" in traprooms? But okay... sure.


RipClaw said it best.  Don't just drop down into a room without preparation.  For me, stealth play is planning ahead, trying to figure out what I am getting into and what I got behind me.  Even after 3000 hours, the new POIs mean I have to stop and pause for a second.  All of the doors locked?  Nope, this one on the side is not.  If I go into this room, how do I escape?  Do I need to prep a frame block to be able to jump over that fence or is my parkour high enough I can simply jump straight over?  Do I need to create an escape path or do I see the key toggle close by so I can trigger it right away?  If I am about to drop in any area, I check for zombies first; and if they are not there, I find my escape route.

 
If you are using the default settings, horde night is 6 hours long (22:00 to 4:00) every 7 days.  That is literally just 3.6% of game time for 1 week.  Stealth is a viable option for the remaining 96.4% of the time.


That's not a very compelling argument. Stealth works fine for trivial stuff, it just isn't usable for the main challenge of the game.

If it required less investment it might seem more worthwhile because you could dip into it the way one might dip into farming. As it is, you kinda have to gimp yourself where it matters most.

About diplomacy checks failing, I feel like that exists in most older RPGs. Fallout, Morrowind, Dark Sun, and many more. Not my favorite mechanic but it's not without precedent.

 
That's not a very compelling argument. Stealth works fine for trivial stuff, it just isn't usable for the main challenge of the game.

If it required less investment it might seem more worthwhile because you could dip into it the way one might dip into farming. As it is, you kinda have to gimp yourself where it matters most.


Well, then consider any two perks in Fortitude besides the gun and melee perks and tell me if you get as much from them as you get from the two stealth perks? Naturally this his very subjective, but I would pick those two stealth perks every time. 

So AGI has guns that are in power somewhere between INT and FOR and on par with PER.

But then only AGI allows you to increase the damage potential of all AGI weapons in specific circumstances (i.e. shooting from stealth) massively, just not on horde nights. Neither PER nor FOR have that capability, only INT is also able to sort of boost its own weapons through using other weapons at the same time (having its hands free)

About diplomacy checks failing, I feel like that exists in most older RPGs. Fallout, Morrowind, Dark Sun, and many more. Not my favorite mechanic but it's not without precedent.

 
That's not a very compelling argument. Stealth works fine for trivial stuff, it just isn't usable for the main challenge of the game.


How so?  Are there no indirect benefits for horde night from using stealth during the remaining 96% of the game?  Everyone plays differently, but here are the benefits I see by using stealth during the non-bloodmoon time:

  • Less hits so less use of medical items
  • Less hits so less damage to armor
  • Use of arrows / bolts / knives / 9mm weapons rather than the other firearms so ammo conservation of 44 cal, shotgun shells, and 7.62
Those come off the top of my mind sitting here at work.  These might not be reasons for others, but for someone like me, it is a great reason (plus I like the challenge) to do stealth the 96% other time of the game.  I don't have to setup ammo producing factories, I don't have to go out and gather large amounts of nitrate / coal to mass produced gunpowder.  I see what I can get by just using what I salvage on my runs into the various POIs and purchase from the traders.  Some playthroughs it is weeks before I find the desert (so no mass harvesting aloe cream) so the only medical items I have are typically what I find in loot (or buy but I tend to hold off on that if possible).

It's also no different than the other perks that don't directly affect the Bloodmoon night, but do have indirect benefits that you benefit from during the workup to that specific time of the week - lockpicking, animal tracking, treasure hunting, salvage operations, Master Chef, Miner 69r, motherlode, Huntsman, Living off the land, Slow Metabolism, Better Barter, Daring Adventurer, Physician, Advanced Engineering, Grease Monkey.

I think that part of the issue is that for some people, if there is no direct benefit from using a perk during horde night, then there is no value to it - even though horde night is less than 4% of the gameplay.

 
Yeah, to be fair, I consider most of those garbage perks other than Daring Adventurer which is absurdly overpowered, Better Barter which is very strong and Miner 69er which is a huge efficiency win that makes progress through much of the game faster. More than half the skills in the game I consider wasted points. I mean, animal tracking? Am I not already suffocating from being crushed beneath my stacks on stacks on stacks of steaks?

 
Which turrets are scrap turrets and what is "hardlocked" in this context?
the... turrets... that... shoot... metal scrap? :'D
https://7daystodie.fandom.com/wiki/Robotic_Turret

And they are hardlocked behind a recipe that is so rare that in two games of a total of 90 days, I only found it once.
If you try and build an INT build you are completely f***ed :D

Also I meant CC (crowd control, as they knock down so many zombies!)

 
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the... turrets... that... shoot... metal scrap? :'D
https://7daystodie.fandom.com/wiki/Robotic_Turret

And they are hardlocked behind a recipe that is so rare that in two games of a total of 90 days, I only found it once.
If you try and build an INT build you are completely f***ed :D

Also I meant CC (crowd control, as they knock down so many zombies!)


You are probably aware that your sample of two games has no statistical significance. I don't think my group ever had problems finding either the turret recipe or turrets themselves.

And I agree, turrets are, correctly used, quite powerful.

 
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I feel that I  don't have the ability to influence your decision.  I don't think many of your reasons are logical, practical, or even applicable, and at worst seem selfish to me.  You want the game to change to suit you instead of acclimating toward it.    The game exists as is because that's the way its coded with a specific design philosophy in mind.   You might not agree to such philosophy, but just because you think its broken for you, doesn't necessarily mean its broken for everyone.  Changes you are implying to suggest would have dramatic side effects and would utterly change the way the game is played for everyone involved, not just you.   I feel like you're trying to romance an idea of 7 Days instead of acknowledging what actually exists.

The questions I asked you were a form of trap.   You seemed to hold onto the strength of the notion of how you were wronged, instead of how you *might* be wrong.    You argue for being rewarded instead, for playing in a way you say that is factually true, but yet you still feel like you're being punished for doing it because it isn't working.

Consider this:  Maybe you're not as effective at stealth as you think you are.   I have all the same problems you describe, and yet I still am able to combat those issues without complaint.  There's never any guarantee that if you do everything right that you still might not succeed regardless, but expecting a reward out of failure despite your best effort - then this isn't about the game.  This sounds like its about you.

 
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turrets are, correctly used, quite powerful.
I recently surprisingly discovered robotic turrets work as a silenced weapon. When turret starts shooting inside a room full of zombies it only wakes those which it's shooting at.

For comparison, when I start shooting a silenced 9mm pistol while sneaking, it wakes all zombies in the 3 - 4 meters radius. It's really odd, because turret doesn't have a silencer and seem pretty noisy to me, but not to zeds, obviously 🙂

 
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I recently surprisingly discovered robotic turrets work as a silenced weapon. When turret starts shooting inside a room full of zombies it only wakes those which it's shooting at.

For comparison, when I start shooting a silenced 9mm pistol while sneaking, it wakes all zombies in the 3 - 4 meters radius. It's really odd, because turret doesn't have a silencer and seem pretty noisy to me, but not to zeds, obviously 🙂
Drone sounds don't affect stealth. 


This is one of the bug fixes of A20.6, seems very related.

Did you play A20.6 when you noticed that? It could be the scrap turret was fixed as well with the above bug fix !?

 
Yep, I'm on A20.6, and robotic turret doesn't wake up zombies close to it, except those it fires directly upon

 
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