PC Is Stealth play viable in late game?

[Uncle Al]

It's a stated design decision that stealth will not allow you to wander a POI shooting immobile zombies 100% of the time.  That's very unlikely to change and that's not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

Stealth is 100% reliable IF you count disengaging and restealthing occasionally as still being 'successful'. Your stealth skills are still preventing you taking damage while you get to dish out insane damage stealth shots.

I imagine stealth might get another tweak if TFP get wandering sleepers working.  Certainly that would help with some of the 'zombies only spawn once you're inside a very small room' issues but that's actually a problem with level design rather than stealth itself.  Even without wandering sleepers, the level designers are constantly looking for badly implemented spawn volumes and fixing them, so we should see ongoing improvements to the most egregious problem POIs. 

 

[8_Hussars]

Stealth NEEDS to be able to work perfectly.
It is a mechanic. A mechanic can not be random (if its not a specific feature of said mechanic).

Because the mechanic is ALWAYS the same.
If I hit the ball a certain way, it will go there 100% of times.

In fifa, if I press the pass button 100% the same, it sometimes goes up, down middle and all around. Because it is out of players control, this feature is one of the most hated features, beaten only by the P2W ultimate team.

With all due respect Viktoriusiii,

There is a fundamental difference between a pure twitch skill mechanic which should be consistent and a system mechanic.  Which arguably also should be consistently inconsistent.  By that I mean it follows all the rules of the mechanics and the systems, but has an RNG component (e.g. stealth checks).

I have no doubt that the stealth system follows those rules to the letter and I respectfully disagree that the stealth mechanic should always "work perfectly" (and arguably why FIFA gets it more right).  Stealth cannot and should not be able to be 100% effective in all situations, ever.

P.S. Never try World of Tanks, with +/- 25% RNG on pen and damage rolls, you will not enjoy it.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Stealth cannot and should not be able to be 100% effective in all situations, ever.

It shouldnt. It should work in those situations that it is used for.
Imagine if your gun didn't fire in 20% of cases or your hammerswing did nothing in 20% of cases with no way to reduce or eliminate that.

But stealth is made only for looting buildings. It is completely useless on hordenight. It doesnt give you more loot and is actually slower than normal clearing.
You give time and fightingpower to save ammo and have garantueed safety.
If you don't have that, then the only useful thing is gone.

P.S. Never try World of Tanks, with +/- 25% RNG on pen and damage rolls, you will not enjoy it.

Tanks are huge unpredicatble machines. If you want realism, then a random check is needed to emulate 10000 factors coming together.
You know that you have to shoot a tanks weakspots.
Imagine if you shot the perfect shot every time, but it only works 80% of the time.

Or in sniper elite, if a headshot doesnt automaticially kill the enemy. Because it doesnt always in reality. But that means you simply have to quickload and do the exact same thing.


These imperfections are only useful in very rare exceptions. Either to emulate complexity (like in the "War of ***" series) or because it is part of the system.

I would love gunquality to make guns inconsistent. So a lvl 1 gun doesn't shoot 10% of times and needs to be reloaded.
A lvl 6 gun only 0.1%. And with all 5 perks, it does not happen at all.
1. it makes sense
2. it gives incentive to explore and upgrade (combines with other systems)
3. it is telegraphed by a value
4. you can counteract it.

But just randomly doing it with no explanation and no way to fight it for artificial drama is just boring and lazy.

 

[8_Hussars]

 Sorry, I think I am covering ground well covered in the other threads.
 

It shouldnt. It should work in those situations that it is used for.
Imagine if your gun didn't fire in 20% of cases or your hammerswing did nothing in 20% of cases with no way to reduce or eliminate that.

But that is my point exactly.  The gun should fire when you click, the hammer should swing.  That is a mechanic, hitting what I am potentially aiming at, needs "a random check", "to emulate 10000 factors coming together" that is the "system".  Those other factors (using RNG as a surrogate) determine if I hit what I am aiming at, miss, or miss and still hit (zombie juking into the path instead of out of it).  We all have our tolerance on what and how much RNG "feels" right.  I think 0 RNG is too generous and a player should never expect 100% success, but that is my tolerance not every-ones. 

But just randomly doing it with no explanation and no way to fight it for artificial drama is just boring and lazy.

I may be miss-remembering but in a previous thread (probably one of yours), a bunch of stealth check situations were pulled from the XML or code that explained how stealth checks work.  They may not be balanced, or balanced to everyone's liking, but they were there.  The mechanics are not random, however the outcome can be somewhat random within the constraints of the system and the RNG "stealth check roll.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

The mechanics are not random, however the outcome can be somewhat random within the constraints of the system and the RNG "stealth check roll.

Untelevised factors make it feel random, even if it isnt.

Take light for example.
If you have a 0 stelathmeter and still get caught with no explanation of what happened... what are you supposed to think as the player?
What did you do wrong? What could you do better next time?

 

[Rotor]

 (and arguably why FIFA gets it more right).  Stealth cannot and should not be able to be 100% effective in all situations, ever.
 

How does one use Stealth in a Soccer game?

 

[8_Hussars]

Untelevised factors make it feel random, even if it isnt.

Take light for example.
If you have a 0 stelathmeter and still get caught with no explanation of what happened... what are you supposed to think as the player?
What did you do wrong? What could you do better next time?

Yes the unknown mechanics makes it feel somewhat random.  The video you linked in the other thread expresses players feelings and expectations quite well.

From my perspective; these are not unknown mechanics even if there are no details.  Further, If a player accepts that there is a chance to fail a stealth check regardless of how perked the player is, then I find it easy to accept that I failed the stealth check (however small a chance it was) and did nothing wrong.  If stealth works successfully near 100% (?) of the time; notwithstanding the designated trigger volumes, I feel that is good balance.  
 

How does one use Stealth in a Soccer game?

I was linking back to Viktoriusiii's two soccer examples;  one game with no RNG that he preferred and one with RNG which he did not.  

Why does this forum merge reply's that are distinct.?

 

[Maharin]

How does one use Stealth in a Soccer game?

If you close your eyes then the other players can't see you.

 

[Rotor]

If you close your eyes then the other players can't see you.

I do that all the time at work, but the RnGeezus does a /bossWalkby roll 25% of the time.

 

[Maharin]

I do that all the time at work, but the RnGeezus does a /bossWalkby roll 25% of the time.

The solution to your problem is to drink copious amounts of alcohol at work.  Remember to save some for your boss.

 

[Apocalyptical Survivor]

I'm still in early game, level 51, but I have to say that stealth play has been hella fun thus far. Walking into a room full of sleeping zeds and taking them out one by one without waking any of them, is such a different playstyle than what I've been previously used to, it's really a refreshing change. Slower gameplay, kind of the difference between Rainbow Six vs. Borderlands, but very rewarding.

Going stealth has caused me to learn a lot about heatmaps and how they affect zombie spawning. This game has some serious depth.

 

[enkephalin07]

I'm probably only mid-game and not heavily reliant on stealth, but I get the impression that there are wake-up triggers that disregard stats and RNG. On the other hand I find that walking normal pace with stealth boots and advanced mufflers, axing rubbish, is occasionally sufficient to get cheap one-shots on sleepers.

One reason I don't get into stealth in POIs is that the layout is so linear that it feels like a pipe-shooter, so I just run&gun it.  You don't get the suspenseful exploration of a wide open environment that stealth games typically feature, so you just feel like you're crawling along a track that you could be running.

 

[BFT2020]

Some things to remember:

• Auto-wakeup does not automatically mean that you are spotted
  
• Stealth players can disengage to get the Z's to lose interest.  In fact, From the Shadows decreases the time that they will actively search
  
  Backtracking is a common tactic I use as a stealth player - Nobody said we have to kill the Z's right away
  

[*]At higher level POIs, silenced pistols and SMGs are highly recommended.  Compound bows and crossbows are still very viable in T5 POIs if you are maxing out your stealth perks

[*]If you are 100% into efficiency, then stealth play is not for you.

[*]If you are wearing heavy armor, then stealth play is not for you - you can still can hidden strikes, but you are geared more towards run and gun playing

 

[Rotor]

Some things to remember:

• If you are wearing heavy armor, then stealth play is not for you -
  

Padded armor is dabomb.  Very soft on the derrier when sitting on a perch hunting.

 

[Ramethzer0]

I'd agree if there wasn't a single factor

I always say:
Don't punish the player for doing the right thing.

Stealth NEEDS to be able to work perfectly.
It is a mechanic. A mechanic can not be random (if its not a specific feature of said mechanic).
 

Well, let me ask you this two parter, in relation to your thoughts.

1.  What exactly is the Right'(tm) thing?

2.  Are you actually being punished?

Stealth doesn't need to work perfectly.  There are too many factors to take into consideration when determining the outcome, and those too are also 'mechanics', and just because you felt like you were just performing the play style doesn't mean you get to evade all negative outcomes.   That's not only unrealistic, but also would make the game just plain boring if 7Days turned into a zombie sniping simulator.   There are app games for your phone if you want that sort of thing.

 

[meganoth]

This summarizes everything wrong with stealth.
"hey you know that specialization that oyu took, that is absolutely useless in combat?
Yea its only going to work like 70% of the time and otherwise force you into combat. Also good lcuk on hordenights "

Lets think of a typical RPG game. Someone specializes in diplomacy and tries to solve quests through deals instead of shooting at the problem. In most RPGs there is still a random roll involved and even with the best diplomacy you might fail a quest. And sometimes that starts combat (often with the option to still complete the quest), sometimes that simply fails the quest.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Well, let me ask you this two parter, in relation to your thoughts.

1.  What exactly is the Right'(tm) thing?

Doing what the game teaches you.
Staying out of range.
Sneaking. Keeping the stealthbar low.
Not making noise (papers, hitting stuff, looting)
Usign silent weapons.

2.  Are you actually being punished?

If the only way to clear a POI is taken away from me because I chose to skill in stealth instead of guns? Yes.

Stealth doesn't need to work perfectly.  There are too many factors to take into consideration when determining the outcome, and those too are also 'mechanics', and just because you felt like you were just performing the play style doesn't mean you get to evade all negative outcomes.   That's not only unrealistic, but also would make the game just plain boring if 7Days turned into a zombie sniping simulator.   There are app games for your phone if you want that sort of thing.

But this isn't a war simulator. Simple mechanics work best. If games with AI were to try and emulate "realistic" behaviour, nobody would play them.

Imagine if in splinter cell enemies would randomly turn around. You would need to quicksave so often, it would ruin the game.
Stealth needs to be predictable, or its not fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay-5g36oFfc&list=PLc38fcMFcV_s8CEnf_j1ZOu-UCTEXRAfl
(next 3 videos)

Yes they actually want you to fight. But they do not give you the tools to do so.
I can't fight hordes of zombies with a bow (especially lategame).

There is no gameplay reason otehr than "we want to player to engage with zombies" for unpredictable wake-up!

And that is a valid reason. But they don't give you any tools to do so.
That is the huge drawback of this "attribute-skillsystem".
You can only do one at a time (at least efficiently), so if you perk into something, you are good at that thing, nothing else.
You have to chose if you want to eat... oh well this is off topic.

Point is:
Sure you can use an AK without any perks in it.
But if you can survive without perks, perks are useless. If you need perks, then you are f***ed if you go into stealth.

Either way it is a fundamentally broken system right now.

You can have fun. 100%. It is a great game. But these systems work against each other, not with one another.





PS: My only point is this:
If the player is skilled enough, he should theoreticially avoid everything.
Make it hard. Make it so hard that it is nearly impossible to do.

But a good player needs to be able to "avoid" more that a bad one.
But right now, normal stealth is so easy, you can sneak right next to zombies without worry... and auto-wakeup have nothing to do with skill... so low skill and high skill have more or less the same outcome.
 

and even with the best diplomacy you might fail a quest.

Then the game is broken and needs to be fixed.
IF you do everything right and a random roll still f***s you over, the game punishes the player, not the character.
 

Name me one RPG where with ideal play you can still fail. Obviously there might be some... but none that I ever played and I played A LOT!!!

And if that game makes you fail, is it reasonable?
Like did you kill the kings daughter?
Or is it "meh we just want to to fight lol! What? You put all your points in diplomacy and can'T fight? Well too bad haha!"

 

[meganoth]

I am unsure of what to think, since a lot of people here say its great...
but I haven't seen any changes inthe logs since I last played... and it was borderline unplayable.

Balancing changes often don't appear in the logs.

I play stealth in A20 and in daytime stealth fails quite often, you still get lots of free kills. At night it is fairly dependable.

There were hwole discussions (two of those started by me) around the auto-wake-up.

As a long LONG stealth player (A8) this is the first alpha where I just left stealth behind. If 50% of rooms wake up anyways and even crossbows are triggering wakeups... I just feel better having an actual weapon to fight.

 

[meganoth]

Doing what the game teaches you.
Staying out of range.
Sneaking. Keeping the stealthbar low.
Not making noise (papers, hitting stuff, looting)
Usign silent weapons.

If the only way to clear a POI is taken away from me because I chose to skill in stealth instead of guns? Yes.

But this isn't a war simulator. Simple mechanics work best. If games with AI were to try and emulate "realistic" behaviour, nobody would play them.

Imagine if in splinter cell enemies would randomly turn around. You would need to quicksave so often, it would ruin the game.
Stealth needs to be predictable, or its not fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay-5g36oFfc&list=PLc38fcMFcV_s8CEnf_j1ZOu-UCTEXRAfl
(next 3 videos)

Yes they actually want you to fight. But they do not give you the tools to do so.
I can't fight hordes of zombies with a bow (especially lategame).

There is no gameplay reason otehr than "we want to player to engage with zombies" for unpredictable wake-up!

And that is a valid reason. But they don't give you any tools to do so.
That is the huge drawback of this "attribute-skillsystem".
You can only do one at a time (at least efficiently), so if you perk into something, you are good at that thing, nothing else.
You have to chose if you want to eat... oh well this is off topic.

Point is:
Sure you can use an AK without any perks in it.
But if you can survive without perks, perks are useless. If you need perks, then you are f***ed if you go into stealth.

You don't go into stealth in this game. You go into agility, with its own gun arsenal. You don't need an AK. There is a reason "run and gun" is in the agility tree.

Either way it is a fundamentally broken system right now.

You can have fun. 100%. It is a great game. But these systems work against each other, not with one another.





PS: My only point is this:
If the player is skilled enough, he should theoreticially avoid everything.
Make it hard. Make it so hard that it is nearly impossible to do.

But a good player needs to be able to "avoid" more that a bad one.
But right now, normal stealth is so easy, you can sneak right next to zombies without worry... and auto-wakeup have nothing to do with skill... so low skill and high skill have more or less the same outcome.
 

Then the game is broken and needs to be fixed.
IF you do everything right and a random roll still f***s you over, the game punishes the player, not the character.

It seems you have never played pen&paper RPG.

Name me one RPG where with ideal play you can still fail. Obviously there might be some... but none that I ever played and I played A LOT!!!

Seriously? All AD&D and pathfinder games fail a diplomacy roll when you roll a 1.

Disco Elysium even makes it fun and a principle of its replayability to fail checks.

And if that game makes you fail, is it reasonable?
Like did you kill the kings daughter?
Or is it "meh we just want to to fight lol! What? You put all your points in diplomacy and can'T fight? Well too bad haha!"

Usually party-based games make it balanced by having just one diplomatic character among others who can fight, sometimes there are advantages to diplomacy that outweigh the lost fighting capability.

The main quest naturally does never fail even if you fail in the diplomatic solution, either combat resolves it eventually or you just get a less advantageous resolution.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

You don't go into stealth in this game. You go into agility, with its own gun arsenal. You don't need an AK. There is a reason "run and gun" is in the agility tree.

"run and gun" in traprooms? But okay... sure.
But can you do hordenight with only pistols?
Because even if I grant you that, this only means that you are slower, still need ammo (even though less, granted), don't have safety AND it is useless on hordenights.

It seems you have never played pen&paper RPG.

I do. And you seemingly don't understand the difference between a PC game and a P&P story telling adventure.

Seriously? All AD&D and pathfinder games fail a diplomacy roll when you roll a 1.

Actually that is incorrect. Autocrits/Fails are a houserule... at least in D&D. But yes, in the german P&P "The dark Eye" you are actually correct.
But as I said "story telling cooperative adventure" =/= PC game.

Disco Elysium even makes it fun and a principle of its replayability to fail checks.

Don't know the game... sorry. But yes it is also a dicebased game. If the game is ABOUT randomness as a feature, sure. It can be good. But 7D2D isn't.