PC Horde Night is DEAD

[HungryZombie]

But what's the purpose ? I've always felt like everything I do during the playthrough is a way to get prepared to facing increasingly difficult horde nights. If I throw this out of the window, I fail to see how the game gives me any meaningful challenge at all.

With the game as it is, I agree it makes the game even less meaningful. Now put running zombies in your face most of the game while your traveling and looting it changes it up. It's like a non-stop horde night. The only difference is they are not radar focused on you so you can use strategy and avoid them if you want. Makes those stealth perks really worth it. Work hard enough and clear the area and you get a break. It's a nice change of pace to play this way and you need mods for it.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Why?
Horde night is an obstacle to be overcome - something to survive. It is not a dungeon or a 'quest' where there is a reason to do it. The reason to do the horde should be that you cant avoid it like a proper obstacle.

What are you even saying? I know this. If the reward is something you require, then it solves both perspectives.

 

[meganoth]

It seems you see this as cheating or something, it's not cheating... it's not a bug to be fixed... but is it sort of lame to do.... yes and that's why i don't do it.

At the moment I don't think anyone would categorize it as a bug. It is a perfectly "legal" way to ignore horde night and therefore is a balancing problem.

Think about a war game where you could win battles either with your army and lots of casualities or instantly win with a tactical nuke and unharmed (and no shortage on nukes). It would be obviously not a bug and also allow more players to play the game (since you don't even need to know the rules to advance). The only problem: All the advantages are on the side of using the nuke.

Now, there is nothing wrong with making this part of a special "story" mode to allow everyone to just enjoy the story. Or call it god-mode. But it isn't something you want to have in the vanilla war game as a completely legal move. Not even when you know you will not use it since it voids most of the game.

Now granted there are people who don't want to play 7D2D the genre-mix complete game, but just (as an extreme example) 7D2D the gardening-sandbox. I don't think we expect too much if we demand that they klick some option to get the incomplete game with laughable balance and anyone who just starts the game as-is gets the genre-mix complete game with perfect balance.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

RE: Guarding the LCB It wouldn't make much difference to me either way except in MP. In MP, we can't all always be there. Defending a friendo's LCB wouldn't be hard because we all build a central base, but any friendo who couldn't make it to horde night then loses out. A single skill point isn't a huge loss though.

Right. That's why I chose a single skill point as the reward. This way, it is a reward worth fighting for, but not completely detrimental if you missed out in MP. Plus, when you play MP, you decide on the server. Maybe everyone is really active and will be playing daily and they want a faster-paced game. They would then just do BM every night. If I mod for this one day, I would probably keep skill points from other sources, but reduce them or make them harder to obtain to balance it out.

- - - Updated - - -

thats why i said batteries only.

Sorry about that. I missed it.

Even when you posted this reply I am quoting, it still didn't click because I was thinking about vehicles that have batteries and use gas.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I'm just pointing out there is no way to stop people from avoiding BM nights (even when they are configured by the in-game options to occur)

Yeah, there is no way to physically stop a person from doing something via 0's and 1's... but if the BM is worthwhile, then they probably would enjoy it enough to stick around. How is this such a hard concept?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I think I suggested this once before, but I wasn't able to find it in a search...
This change would provide the motivation for defending a base. Positive and negative reinforcement.

You can build structures, forts, etc. anywhere you want. You can escape hordes with a vehicle. Once you install a Colony block however (similar to a LCB), you've designated this spot a colony.

What happens...

1) Your colony block attracts NPCs.

2) The cap on colonists would be based either on your level, or a perk, but the total would increase very slowly to reach that cap. Quests might include rescuing people that would then become colonists.

3) Depending on TFP's abilities and desires, NPCs would either not be able to defend themselves, or perhaps have limited capabilities to run or melee.

4) The NPCs would provide passive abilities and benefits which might include auto-farming, running forges, or giving certain bonuses or perks to the player just by being in his colony.

5) Special NPCs would exist which might provide extended or unique abilities. For example, if you have a colonist with the "Well Digger" ability, he or she will provide you with a well kit which will allow you to make an unlimited water source (not necessarily fresh) within your base. A good cook might give you a stamina bonus. A doctor might quickly patch up your wounds or remove most debuffs. You might even be fortunate enough to attract your own Trader!

6) On Bloodmoon nights the zombies will beeline for your COLONY, not you. They'll attack you, your base, and your colonists if you let them.

There's a TON of incentive to defend your base. You'd even need/want to design it differently, and much more seriously if colonists' lives were at stake. If TFP could implement a combat capable NPC colonist, BOY would that be fun. Nothing would be stopping you from abandoning the people you swore to protect to save your own skin, but your people would be very dead and much of your colony structure decimated. All your bonuses gone, and the unique ones probably gone for good in that game. This would definitely add some RPG zing to the game for those who like that, and a set of special perks to earn and protect for more spartan gamers. It's sort of how FO4 was supposed to do settlements (but with some actual lethal danger to the NPCs).

I'd suggest that the zombies would attack and eventually destroy your Colony block and then just wander the site until morning. Until then, your chests full of goodies might be lost, but I'm not suggesting the zombies would actually seek them out either.

-Morloc

I was trying to keep it simple so that TFP might consider the idea or adapt it some way. This extends the defend-something concept to extreme levels. It's awesome. SO much fun to be had.

I would love to raid an enemy base and slaughter their entire colony. It would be hysterical. Kill them all, and when they come back, they're all zombies.

There is no way TFP would consider this. The amount of work to do is too much. Not that I am going to call them lazy, but there have been plenty of decent, more simple ideas that they won't consider because of the work involved. This right here, is like a game in itself. You could make a decent game with just this idea as a base.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Yeah, there is no way to physically stop a person from doing something via 0's and 1's... but if the BM is worthwhile, then they probably would enjoy it enough to stick around. How is this such a hard concept?

It's not a hard concept at all, and I would be very much more in favour of arguments around incentivizing a player not to skip the Horde than arguments around preventing them from doing so (which I believe is a "fools errand" of impossibility).

Perhaps the BM horde could contain one final "Boss Zombie" with a near guaranteed shot at some very high end loot, who only appears once all the little "Minion Zombies" have been dispatched before hand?

I'm not anti-BM Horde, nor am I neglectful of the fact that any game, digital or otherwise, needs rules in order to have any sense of purpose, I just think that it would not only be far easier to come up with practical ideas to reward players for defeating the Horde than ideas (none of which yet sound any fun to me) to try and plug a small subset of the very many ways players can skip them.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Perhaps the BM horde could contain one final "Boss Zombie" with a near guaranteed shot at some very high end loot, who only appears once all the little "Minion Zombies" have been dispatched before hand?

There we go! Beautiful. We should stick to posts like this.

 

[bdubyah]

That's what I had hoped the Behemoth would be.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

It seems like more folks fought off the hordes on BM night when there were 200+ corpses to loot afterwards. Yes, 95% of the stuff on them was junk but there was always that "Easter Egg" chance of finding something really needed/wanted and it was a Tangible reward. At least bones and flesh was abundant.

Very true. It did get old to tear up all those bodies, but surely most people did it anyway. Most of the loot was trash, but every once in a while you found some good stuff... and apparently this was enough to distract more people from any thoughts that they should skip out than there are now. In fact, I am guilty... it indeed distracted me as this is a bigger problem for me now.

I don't really buy into that vehicles are the cause of this. I just presented that as one of a few examples of avoiding BM. It's no different from when we had just the minibike. The loot, the zombies doing more block damage by default, the spikes being less effective forcing you to do more expensive traps, and just purely getting bored from seeing the same thing with the AI are all contributing factors in this downfall of Horde Night.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

That's what I had hoped the Behemoth would be.

Same.

I understand their reasons for ditching it though. It was too unlike the other zombies. If maybe they got more creative with it and slowly worked up to zombies like that it would have fit in more. They could have made mutated versions of their current models or something... as if they are evolving into beasts like that.

 

[Lanadon Conners]

It would have been awesome if they could manage to have the minion corpses "Merge" at the end and form a huge "Blob" of decaying Flesh that slowly advanced upon the player or at least the person with the most Agro until slain. Give it the potential to drop a loot bag with a possible Legendary item inside and I would be standing on the Ramparts of my base mid afternoon every BM night. At later levels, have only the Green Zombie corpses merge for a Ubber nasty Irradiated Blob.

 

[OzHawkeye]

The loot, the zombies doing more block damage by default, the spikes being less effective forcing you to do more expensive traps, and just purely getting bored from seeing the same thing with the AI are all contributing factors in this downfall of Horde Night.

For me, it was the very predictability of the Horde night that did me in. Like the zombies were shift workers, and every 7 days the BM shift would clock in and trudge towards my base.

The new options for varying the BM have been my single biggest joy factor in Alpha 17. I love it! Now, if only I could make it so there was literally no warning at all, no red skies, ominous thunder etc, I'd be happy as, but yeah, the ability to randomise the timing of the Horde saved BM hordes for me.

I also like the lack of loot, less of it, but more meaningful was a great solution to the post-BM night, body clean up chore of old BM's.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

So, for the people who are thinking, "no reward for Horde Night!" "You should simply have to do it for the sake of survival." How about this for you guys?

(before more posts shut me down with statements that this infringes upon your freedom, let's assume this is optional)

With blood moon comes radioactive rain. There isn't a full story on the radiation, so let's just pretend this is a thing now. It does thunder on BM, so let's just say that this is the reason why. You can survive in it if you really have to, but not for long. This will tend to push you indoors one way or another. You wouldn't want to get stuck in some crappy POI, especially after the 3rd or 4th blood moon. The best survivable solution would be to have a sheltered, heavily defended base.

I could get into this. It seems simple enough. The reward here is just surviving, and I could accept that as good enough for me. The rain would have to be more of a drizzle though, otherwise too annoying.

Riding on vehicle all night... solved. (even gyrocopter)

No reason to be at base... solved.

MP logoff... unsolved.

Mp logoff is what I care the least about, but it's good to try to complete the package.

So, you work in OzHawkEye's idea of bosses at the end. If nobody is at a base during horde night, just expect to come back to a wrecked base because those bosses had free reign over your structure.

So there ya go... pure survival reward.

 

[pahbi]

Horde night definitely needs some love, if not a redesign.

Some of my most entertaining moments have been blood nights, so I hope they don't go away, but some kind of balance between cheesing the AI or having an impenetrable fort needs to be found.

- P

 

[OzHawkeye]

So, for the people who are thinking, "no reward for Horde Night!" "You should simply have to do it for the sake of survival." How about this for you guys?
(before more posts shut me down with statements that this infringes upon your freedom, let's assume this is optional)

With blood moon comes radioactive rain. There isn't a full story on the radiation, so let's just pretend this is a thing now. It does thunder on BM, so let's just say that this is the reason why. You can survive in it if you really have to, but not for long. This will tend to push you indoors one way or another.

~~snip~~

Mp logoff is what I care the least about, but it's good to try to complete the package.

So, you work in OzHawkEye's idea of bosses at the end. If nobody is at a base during horde night, just expect to come back to a wrecked base because those bosses had free reign over your structure.

Well, this is a much better suggestion that EMP effects, and handily covers the bicycle in a much more immersive way. I'll even go so far as to say, I could get behind this idea. /gasp!

Of course, it still won't prevent people from skipping the BM horde if they want (Hordes attack players, so a player logging out doesn't get their base attacked, and it would be nigh on impossible to change that behaviour), but it seems to tick more of the boxes:

i) It's immersive

ii) It's more or less consistent with the established lore of the game

iii) It has a ruleset that makes sense (EMP doesn't).

iv) It also rewards the player for defeating the horde and the horde boss.

So long as the debilitative effect of the rain took a reasonable amount of time to kick in (so I can fight the horde outside), then I could see this being a fun mechanic, and a good way of giving the player a reason to face the Horde, and foreclosing the option of them simply driving around all night to skip it (though, I still don't see that as an issue just personally).

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Oh yeah. The rain should not be as harsh as typical radiation. That would be way too much. You should even be able to step out into it for a few seconds before anything does harm.

The problem with MP might be solvable with some behind the scenes work, that the players don't need to even know about. An hierarchy of blocks temporarily taking on the role of a player entity under the following conditions:

1) No other players are near said block.

2) The owner of the block is logged out.

First a check for an LCB, if no LCB, check for a bed, if no bed check for a chest. If a player has none of these as a target, then the player probably doesn't have much worth destroying anyway. So forgetaboutit. Want to get fancy? check for a forge, check for workbench, etc. I don't know if player id can be stored with these objects right now though... would have to ask a modder.

There would probably have to be a timer once these conditions are met. You have to allow a few minutes in case someone loses connection to a server, not to mention justifying destruction with that period of time.

As a developer myself (of software, mostly custom office software... I don't do games), this algorithm isn't complicated at all. Chunks would not have to be loaded as long as references to these items were maintained by the server until the moment of destruction. References do not need to be established at that moment. This is something a server can use background threads to do slowly and periodically throughout its runtime to ensure it isn't doing anything heavy all at once. At the moment of destruction, only player-placed blocks near the target need to be loaded, destroyed, and then left for garbage collection. No need for lag... if an entire server is absent except for one guy on the map somewhere, the server can call these destructions one at a time. An actual horde need not exist either. Nobody is around to see it (because of condition 1). All that matters is that a reasonable passage of time has gone by.

 

[Dimpy]

As your base gets bigger and uses more expensive building materials, the cost of maintaining the base should go down until it reaches the point where it's more cost-effective to camp out inside than it is to run away.

The suggestions I've seen so far have mostly about accomplishing this by making avoidance less convenient, and that's great, but perhaps we should be thinking about making it possible to make a zombie-proof base without having to use cheese strategies.

"But Dimpy", you might be saying,"If we could easily survive the horde with no effort, what would be the point of playing?". I have two ideas that could work to counteract that:

1. 49 day hordes: Every 7th seven-day horde is much stronger than usual and has special zombies that can break through normally nearly-impenetrable defenses (Like the behemoth ). It's super epic, feels like how the first seven day horde felt like on your first few playthroughs. There's going to be massive cleanup and repairs required afterward, but it's less often, so therefore less tedious.

2. Nomadism: There are resources on the map that take more than a few days travel to reach. Therefore it's not practical to go back to your heavily fortified base every 7 days(though it would still be worth it for the 49-day hordes). Instead, you need to make the occasional hastily made outpost and survive the horde there.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

As your base gets bigger and uses more expensive building materials, the cost of maintaining the base should go down until it reaches the point where it's more cost-effective to camp out inside than it is to run away.

Or the other way... as you progress in the game, it becomes easier to obtain said materials. However, either way does not exist in the game. One might think it could because of better skills and better tools, but gamestage progresses along with that and neutralizes what should be easy with more difficult zombies in your way. The only think I can think of to help with that, and that would not mess with current game mechanics too much, are stronger late game traps.

Regarding the late game... as long as the BMs get progressively difficult for long enough it shouldn't matter that they eventually plateau. If it takes a long time, and you have made it that far, it's probably time to relax and enjoy your place at the top of the food chain again. Perhaps at this point, start building for the sake of building. Roam and explore just for the sake of exploring... all of those things that the players who don't care for BM horde at all do.

Nomadism: There are resources on the map that take more than a few days travel to reach. Therefore it's not practical to go back to your heavily fortified base every 7 days(though it would still be worth it for the 49-day hordes). Instead, you need to make the occasional hastily made outpost and survive the horde there.

Ah yeah, interesting point with the nomadism. Can't leave nomads out of this. I suppose if you joined a MP server with BM every single night, but wanted to play nomadic, it wouldn't be a very wise choice. BMs that are more spread out should handle that just fine.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Oh yeah. The rain should not be as harsh as typical radiation. That would be way too much. You should even be able to step out into it for a few seconds before anything does harm.
The problem with MP might be solvable with some behind the scenes work, that the players don't need to even know about. An hierarchy of blocks temporarily taking on the role of a player entity under the following conditions:

To be honest, I doubt it. I mean, it's not like I've got the source code sitting here, but your checks sound like a lot of work for the server to process, and even then, all they'd have to do is relocate before logging out, so you still haven't stopped the player on an MP server from simply logging out to avoid the Horde, all you've done is force them to relocate briefly (and not even very far at that) before doing so.

I still think you and Victorius will chase the rabbit down the rabbit hold with no end in sight trying to foreclose MP players logging out to skip hordes. Better to give players a positive reason to face it, and perhaps a penalty to the more preventable avoidance strategies.