PC Horde Night is DEAD

As an immersion warrior and as I described in the rest of my post which I hope you did read, I don't find periodic electromagnetic pulses too much of a stretch, compared to the sudden lightning, red sky and glowing zombies. The bicycle simply doesn't have to get disabled, since it should be the slowest vehicle in the first place, not allowing you to safely escape the horde.
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For the record, I don't much care either way. As long as a "challenge" doesn't equal time wasting micromanagement, I'm pretty forgiving on game mechanics. That said, no, I would never expect zombies to outrun or even pace someone peddling along at a good clip on a bike. Can I accept it as part of the game? Yes. Would I find it immersive? Not in the least.

I feel roughly the same about BM EMP pulses. Could be a fun challenge (if it affects generators as well), but is, IMO, also a highly obvious attempt to hinder the player's progress at that point to create the illusion of difficulty. For me, it wouldn't be immersive at all and wouldn't create any sense of real sense of urgency to be barred from a vehicle since I already don't use them to escape the horde. Part of that is, admittedly, personal playstyle. I fight the horde because I like it and don't care about what might be options outside of what to do if my plan A and back up plan B fail. Can I escape on my motorcycle? Yes. Does it lessen my sense of achievement or drive to make a base, weapons, etc? Not at all.

To me, it's like saying 'we're going to let you build steel walls so you get the feeling of progression and safety 6 days a week, but on the 7th we're going to make each zombie's individual block damage take out steel in one hit because you're too safe now'.

 
That said, no, I would never expect zombies to outrun or even pace someone peddling along at a good clip on a bike. Can I accept it as part of the game? Yes. Would I find it immersive? Not in the least.
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Not trying to win here. Just adding onto that:

I also dislike that you can just drive with the bike right through the wilderness up 45آ° mountains and be totally fine.

If zombies would spawn in every direction when driving the bike, and you are like 50% the speed on dirt than on the road and zombies that hit you throw you into a ragdollposition, I would be happy.

But certain compromises have to be made :)

 
Not trying to win here. Just adding onto that:I also dislike that you can just drive with the bike right through the wilderness up 45آ° mountains and be totally fine.

If zombies would spawn in every direction when driving the bike, and you are like 50% the speed on dirt than on the road and zombies that hit you throw you into a ragdollposition, I would be happy.

But certain compromises have to be made :)
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Nah, surprisingly (maybe?) I agree with you. I too question some of the inclines that my bicycle can climb but my jeep has more trouble on. I probably should have said that, just like fun, immersion is pretty subjective. For example, I find zombies that move at speeds faster than a slow, menacing lurch with the occasional burst of speed if you're in range (I love the base zombies in RE2 Remake) pretty 'meh'. But until technology and software makes it possible for me to have smooth gameplay in a voxel game with 100s and 100s of zombies shambling towards my base from all directions, I accept it. Other people love the fast moving Usain Bolts charging at them in confined spaces and don't find it silly at all, and that too is fine. :D

 
The OP seems based on the premise that levels / skill points (and thereby increased GS) is a goal.
When I play I try to avoid gaining XP in order to keep the GS low as I scavenge and improve my gear.

During horde night I also rely on traps as much as possible for the same reason.
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This just shows that we actually need more flexibility in terms of gameplay, because we all like different ways of playing this game and that's fine, that's the main advantage of this game and it always was - play the way you want to play because you can do that in this game. For this reason I believe the horde night is actually pretty clever and flexible too - You want to avoid it? You can. You want to go through the hell of the horde night? You can do that too! You want the extreme? Set as many horde night zombies per player as possible and install the mod that prolongs the horde night until morning if you have a death wish.

 
For the record, I don't much care either way. As long as a "challenge" doesn't equal time wasting micromanagement, I'm pretty forgiving on game mechanics. That said, no, I would never expect zombies to outrun or even pace someone peddling along at a good clip on a bike. Can I accept it as part of the game? Yes. Would I find it immersive? Not in the least.
I feel roughly the same about BM EMP pulses. Could be a fun challenge (if it affects generators as well), but is, IMO, also a highly obvious attempt to hinder the player's progress at that point to create the illusion of difficulty. For me, it wouldn't be immersive at all and wouldn't create any sense of real sense of urgency to be barred from a vehicle since I already don't use them to escape the horde. Part of that is, admittedly, personal playstyle. I fight the horde because I like it and don't care about what might be options outside of what to do if my plan A and back up plan B fail. Can I escape on my motorcycle? Yes. Does it lessen my sense of achievement or drive to make a base, weapons, etc? Not at all.

To me, it's like saying 'we're going to let you build steel walls so you get the feeling of progression and safety 6 days a week, but on the 7th we're going to make each zombie's individual block damage take out steel in one hit because you're too safe now'.
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Yes, I get what you mean and you make some valid points. That alone is refreshing, no matter if you agree with me or not.

Personally, I don't even like sniping vomit cops or birds and of course green bullet sponges - I find them "unrealistic" (even for the game's standards) and believe they belong to that "artificial" kind of difficulty due to the lack of more creative means of difficulty.

As for the EMP thing - have you played Darkwood? It is a well-made top down atmospheric survival rpg. Its ways to screw the player over are well-crafted/set enough, so that they don't seem "artificial". Anyhow, I find the concept of something disabling defenses/lights randomly for a few seconds quite exciting and interesting changing the course of battle and the players' actions - didn't bring it up mostly for vehicles and I wouldn't bring it up at all if it wasn't for 7DTD's dramatic blood moon effects.

At any case, anything that will make the horde involuntary will do. Whether you have to defend something, or you can't for whatever reason escape - that's the gist. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as it fits and is as seamless as possible. This is irrelevant to some sense of achievement - I explained why it has to be this way in detail in my previous post and it is essentially how every other game works (except pure sandbox games).

can't give this enough +1's thank you for putting it into words better than I ever could :D (at least in english :D )
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One would think that some principles - especially ones that every single other game out there uses - don't have to be explained, but... :(

 
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Personally, I don't even like sniping vomit cops or birds and of course green bullet sponges - I find them "unrealistic" (even for the game's standards) and believe they belong to that "artificial" kind of difficulty due to the lack of more creative means of difficulty.
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Too bad, I was just on the brink of mentioning this as a solution to bikes and vehicles. The spit could slow you down because of flat tires destroyed by the acid.

Gameplay wise both have different advantages. EMP would influence strategy and base design on horde nights too (if electricity is disabled everywhere for short times). Cops would probably make the more interesting mini-game if you do decide to try out the bike on horde night.

I would have no problems with either cops or EMP. The disadvantage is far outweighted by the immersion of having an inevitable horde night (if you don't turn it off completely).

 
Too bad, I was just on the brink of mentioning this as a solution to bikes and vehicles. The spit could slow you down because of flat tires destroyed by the acid.
Gameplay wise both have different advantages. EMP would influence strategy and base design on horde nights too (if electricity is disabled everywhere for short times). Cops would probably make the more interesting mini-game if you do decide to try out the bike on horde night.

I would have no problems with either cops or EMP. The disadvantage is far outweighted by the immersion of having an inevitable horde night (if you don't turn it off completely).
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It's the way I see it as well. And the better the staging is, the less artificial will it look. As for spit, it already exists, so it might as well serve a meaningful purpose by slowing/affecting vehicles :p

 
I think I suggested this once before, but I wasn't able to find it in a search...

This change would provide the motivation for defending a base. Positive and negative reinforcement.

You can build structures, forts, etc. anywhere you want. You can escape hordes with a vehicle. Once you install a Colony block however (similar to a LCB), you've designated this spot a colony.

What happens...

1) Your colony block attracts NPCs.

2) The cap on colonists would be based either on your level, or a perk, but the total would increase very slowly to reach that cap. Quests might include rescuing people that would then become colonists.

3) Depending on TFP's abilities and desires, NPCs would either not be able to defend themselves, or perhaps have limited capabilities to run or melee.

4) The NPCs would provide passive abilities and benefits which might include auto-farming, running forges, or giving certain bonuses or perks to the player just by being in his colony.

5) Special NPCs would exist which might provide extended or unique abilities. For example, if you have a colonist with the "Well Digger" ability, he or she will provide you with a well kit which will allow you to make an unlimited water source (not necessarily fresh) within your base. A good cook might give you a stamina bonus. A doctor might quickly patch up your wounds or remove most debuffs. You might even be fortunate enough to attract your own Trader!

6) On Bloodmoon nights the zombies will beeline for your COLONY, not you. They'll attack you, your base, and your colonists if you let them.

There's a TON of incentive to defend your base. You'd even need/want to design it differently, and much more seriously if colonists' lives were at stake. If TFP could implement a combat capable NPC colonist, BOY would that be fun. Nothing would be stopping you from abandoning the people you swore to protect to save your own skin, but your people would be very dead and much of your colony structure decimated. All your bonuses gone, and the unique ones probably gone for good in that game. This would definitely add some RPG zing to the game for those who like that, and a set of special perks to earn and protect for more spartan gamers. It's sort of how FO4 was supposed to do settlements (but with some actual lethal danger to the NPCs).

I'd suggest that the zombies would attack and eventually destroy your Colony block and then just wander the site until morning. Until then, your chests full of goodies might be lost, but I'm not suggesting the zombies would actually seek them out either.

-Morloc

 
I think I suggested this once before, but I wasn't able to find it in a search...
This change would provide the motivation for defending a base. Positive and negative reinforcement.

You can build structures, forts, etc. anywhere you want. You can escape hordes with a vehicle. Once you install a Colony block however (similar to a LCB), you've designated this spot a colony.

What happens...

1)........

......................................................

....

There's a TON of incentive to defend your base. You'd even need/want to design it differently, and much more seriously if colonists' lives were at stake. If TFP could implement a combat capable NPC colonist, BOY would that be fun. Nothing would be stopping you from abandoning the people you swore to protect to save your own skin, but your people would be very dead and much of your colony structure decimated. All your bonuses gone, and the unique ones probably gone for good in that game. This would definitely add some RPG zing to the game for those who like that, and a set of special perks to earn and protect for more spartan gamers. It's sort of how FO4 was supposed to do settlements (but with some actual lethal danger to the NPCs).

c
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Are you kidding? This is a wet dream for many of us.

Yes, it would provide an excellent combination of reward and risk. Ever tried RTS mod in Fallout 3? Unfortunately MM confirmed that it is *very* unlikely to happen, because it is a huge undertaking and as they said, they are not sure they would be able to deliver something that is not sub-par.

 
...it is a huge undertaking and as they said, they are not sure they would be able to deliver something that is not sub-par.
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Just put a dress on the LCB and call her Ellie.... ;)
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I wouldn't mind the sub-par thing too much...the dress on "Block_Ellie_01" would be OK. I don't even need her to move (hmm, sounds like that movie I was watching last night), just to give me her bonuses so long as I keep her alive. I could pick her up and place her where she should be....but that'd need some limiting factor since you wouldn't want to just be able to pick up your whole colony during a BM. "Turret_Roxanne_01" would sit diligently up on the wall where I placed her...etc.

If it can't make it to the Release, then it would be a hell of a pay-DLC to buy.

-Morloc

 
I don't even need her to move (hmm, sounds like that movie I was watching last night), just to give me her bonuses so long as I keep her alive. I could pick her up and place her where she should be....-Morloc
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while you all talking about the horde night and the scaling with the GS , i think we need the GS out of the game except for horde night .

and how this is going to work is simply every thing is RANDOM and avoidable .

for example :

1-a feral horde not blood moon horde should be something you will see mid day . it souldnt be directed to your location in case you are unlucky and just started the game , but something that will stop you in your place for a while, or if you really want that exp , its all your choice.

2-there is no more house filled with tons of rad zombies , but there is integrated pois that provide a loot quality that is fixed to the difficulty of the poi , so if its a normal cabin i would expect normal and weak legs zombies but in return no reward (if iam very high level)

and the higher level pois like the missile silo , i should expect feral zombies before mid way and lil rads at the end, but extremely good loot

so if it happens to sneak past all this risks in your first day and break the containers very carefully you can have it!!!

3- the loot should be spread out in the building not all in one room at the end, thats something like check points !

this for sure will affect the horde night , because if you are not ready to take top tier pois , you shouldnt really face hard HN and vise versa

4- in case you are arguing about riding the bike , i could think of a concept that really no one would like . which could be represented in the final version of the game , the soul reaper or the behemoth which is " in my opinion " a dark giant scary looking zombie that want to feed the smaller zombies and he watches you during every horde night from a far distance if you tried to out run the horde you will not out run him >> something like a force field <<< but more convenient . lol

the last point is just a joke .

 
That idea is good. I might still have GS affect the POIs to a lesser degree, but separating them up by their natural difficulty makes sense.

-Morloc

 
Btw for your information "Yes you enjoy it"... I don't drive around on Horde night. It's something i just don't do BUT there are some players that do and yes they do enjoy it.... so why remove it.

You see being able to jump on a bike or in a car ect as a bug, i see it as an option (even if i don't do it myself).

Now if cars/bikes just stopped working every horde night then i would call that a bug. It seems you see this as cheating or something, it's not cheating... it's not a bug to be fixed... but is it sort of lame to do.... yes and that's why i don't do it.

The point i was trying to make was different players play in different ways... that's all.

Do i like that some players drive/fly around all night to skip the horde nights ? To tell the truth, i don't much care, i'm to busy playing my game the way i like to play it and having fun.

As i said, yes horde night should give more rewards for building a base, setting up traps and such and fighting off the horde every 7 days, that's the way me, my wife and most of my friends do it, 2 of my friends drive or log off.... dose that bother me ? Nope, they don't find that fun and that's why they do it.

If more rewards were given then maybe more players would fight them on horde night but to try and force players... well i think that may just stop them from playing the game all together.

We all have fun in different ways in games, we have our way and they have there way.

In the end it all comes down to "Whatever floats ya boat". ;)

 
Btw for your information "Yes you enjoy it"... I don't drive around on Horde night. It's something i just don't do BUT there are some players that do and yes they do enjoy it.... so why remove it.You see being able to jump on a bike or in a car ect as a bug, i see it as an option (even if i don't do it myself).

Now if cars/bikes just stopped working every horde night then i would call that a bug. It seems you see this as cheating or something, it's not cheating... it's not a bug to be fixed... but is it sort of lame to do.... yes and that's why i don't do it.

The point i was trying to make was different players play in different ways... that's all.

Do i like that some players drive/fly around all night to skip the horde nights ? To tell the truth, i don't much care, i'm to busy playing my game the way i like to play it and having fun.

As i said, yes horde night should give more rewards for building a base, setting up traps and such and fighting off the horde every 7 days, that's the way me, my wife and most of my friends do it, 2 of my friends drive or log off.... dose that bother me ? Nope, they don't find that fun and that's why they do it.

If more rewards were given then maybe more players would fight them on horde night but to try and force players... well i think that may just stop them from playing the game all together.

We all have fun in different ways in games, we have our way and they have there way.

In the end it all comes down to "Whatever floats ya boat". ;)
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I can dig it. I wasn't posting this to be like, hey I have an idea... TFP needs to screw over everybody who doesn't like it.

Everything is always so black and white around here. One cannot even post ideas that lean towards compromises because of this. There are plenty of ways to make the game easier or with less stuff going on, so I'm sure if something similar to what I am suggesting was implemented, they would consider people who like that. This is an idea that can give the game a real purpose for once... some of us don't find walking around in a world collecting loot with no end goals except for the ones created by imagination as fun. I'm a pretty creative guy. I supported myself as an artist and YT partner for years... but sometimes I just want to complete a big challenge that someone else's creativity came up with and not spend time playing pretend.

 
It seems like more folks fought off the hordes on BM night when there were 200+ corpses to loot afterwards. Yes, 95% of the stuff on them was junk but there was always that "Easter Egg" chance of finding something really needed/wanted and it was a Tangible reward. At least bones and flesh was abundant.

Yes it was a problem to the system but it is something that I know a lot of folks miss. Even drinking those useless "Grandpa's Learnin Elixers " that last 100th the time it takes to gather the mats to make them doesn't help "Horde Night".

Myself, I consider "Horde Night" just something I must endure to test my base's defences and continue my adventures the next morning.

 
I don't want to see vehicles go either.I proposed a solution for that in another post.

Regrading the resources used when repairing after horde night, I want to clarify.

I don't expect to get back the resources. I have no problem spending time after to gain them back in prep for the next HN.

The problem is that there is no balance here. For what I have spent in resources and time I should get back in something special and worth the time and effort.
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Why?

Horde night is an obstacle to be overcome - something to survive. It is not a dungeon or a 'quest' where there is a reason to do it. The reason to do the horde should be that you cant avoid it like a proper obstacle. If the silly exploits (like jogging away) were removed then you would not be wondering why you deal with the horde because the why is requirement. When Horde nights become unfun then you can turn them off. At least that is how I see horde night - as something to be weathered rather than something to benefit from.

 
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