I’m pretty sure MM has access to more stats provided by steam than just number of players. I’m not saying I know but just think about Steam Achievements.... things you do in-game are picked up and reported as data. Who’s to say there isn’t data being collected on what food items are cooked, which weapons are used the most, or the numbers he mentions in his posts? The general public does not have access to all of the data being collected. Again, I could be wrong but it does make sense they could have that type of data.
PC Game Development 101 (and other arguments)
- Thread starter madmole
- Start date
Viktoriusiii
New member
Again with the silent majority... (all the following is granting you that the silent majority actually agrees with you, which I would only grant you in certain situations)
The silent majority:
-doesn't invite friends
-doens't care about changes
-doesn't keep playing (for current player numbers)
-doesn't write reviews
-does not try and help as best as they can by participating in experimental
If you want to attract a casual audience, you'll need lots of media coverage.
There is a reason why small developers only get bigger fanbases with complex or at least expansive gameplay.
Basicially there is two ways to get more players:
a) your a big corp and just spend millions on advertising. This is the EA route. ♥♥♥♥ty gameplay but advertising to impressionables works most often
b) your a small studio which mostly spreads with word of mouth. These should NOT care about the silent majority. You want those who tell their friends. You want to show them that you care so that they have hope in the future of the game. You want good reviews for the silent majority to have something they can base their descicion to buy it on. You want to keep player numbers high to get more coverage by keeping long time/hardcore fans interested.
This does not mean that you have to bend over for those players.
But A17 was the other way round. You bent over the caring minority and argued that the silent majority will like them so its fine. And the way you argue, I do not feel like you have learned from A17... even if a lot of the stuff for A18 sounds promising. Your ATTITUDE is the same... which worries me a bit.
Again: I have NO problem with you making more money. I would love if this was more a passion project and fans actually meant something to you, but I do understand that after years of this there has to be some "work is work" attitude.
But your argument of the silent majority makes no sense even if they actually would prefer simple gameplay. Which sometimes might be true... but definatly not always.
Roland
Moderator
Your problem is that you think Madmole is arguing to try and win some sort of debate. That is what YOU are doing.
Madmole is the actual designer with experience and success. He isn’t posing arguments to convince anyone that he is right. He’s giving us facts as a proven master of his craft. If this was a classroom, he would be the acknowledged teacher or guest speaker and we the students taking notes.
Every class has that one know-it-all student with no real world experience but plenty of self esteem and who will try and argue with the teacher—and it sometimes works with teachers who became such solely through book learning and never left academia. But if the teacher is one who has actual experience in the real world there really is not much back and forth arguing.
Most in the room respect and acknowledge the wisdom and knowledge of the actual master and roll their eyes at the loud know-it-all who quotes books and references but has never actually done it.
Some of you can scoff and try and discredit what he says but when it comes to actual measurable experience and success the best you guys can do is claim a desire for anonymity....
Viktoriusiii
New member
My friend can SWEAR to me that he saw a light and himself in 3rd person after he died. And I believe him. That doesn't make me believe in an afterlife. Because even if brainwave scanners show that he saw them, that only means that there was a process that caused it. It COULD be an afterlife... or it is just simple hallucinations from the oxigenstarvation.
Same with the examples in the video.
Just because you do follow all the advice of Bill Gates doesn't mean that you will be more successfull than when following a widely proven method of earning money.
For every Bill Gates there is millions of non Bill Gates's that probably did a lot similar to Bill.
There is a reason why certain users started making a mocking argument of "TFPs are the creators, therefor they know better!"
They also created A17... so I am not convinced.
And just because I have crippling depression that often times keeps me from getting out of bed, does NOT mean that I have worse arguments, just because I haven't created a successfull game.
Your opinion of the "silent majority" is ridiculous.
I rarely post here, 70 posts over 3 years or so.
I have played 2609 hours in that time. I have played every experimental. I have 7 friends I convinced to buy or gifted a copy to. I did write a favorable steam review. And several of my posts were concerns regarding experimental content.
I also respond to questions or concerns posted on the steam forums that I have knowledge of and no one has answered.
I don't often post here because when I do, there are often people who belittle my opinion, make personal attacks, or act like their OPINION is fact and everyone with a different opinion is just wrong about how they feel. I just don't like to waste my time on those type of people.
However, I do read this thread daily and keep informed of what is going on. I don't like every single thing tfp does, but I don't expect to. Overall, I think each alpha I have played has been better overall than the one before and that they will end with a game I will enjoy even more than the alphas I have played extensively.
I hope madmole and the rest of the pimps keep following their vision while making adjustments based off of our feedback, as they have been doing all along.
Drithyl
New member
He doesn't have access to data from Morrowind players, which are the numbers he was making up in his post and which I was referencing.
Sorry, but if you really think that this is what it is, a classroom where madmole is the teacher imparting his wisdom, then as a teacher yourself you would probably expect him to use better arguments than made up numbers or "this is better than your idea because I say so and I'm successful". That's a fallacy and is not how things should be discussed. Nobody is an absolute authority in any subject.
I'm going to disagree as well on what constitutes a fact to you, because rarely have I seen madmole giving cold hard facts. Most of the time he quotes random figures that he comes up with, doesn't give a source to them or any sort of explanation either.
If he doesn't want to discuss at all or win any debate then he simply shouldn't respond to people. He should post about whatever he has to say on the development of the game and not engage in a discussion, because if he does, it's natural to expect a minimum level from the "master".
Also, one can criticize or question things that are said by the teacher without having to be a "know-it-all" whom everyone dislikes. What kind of stigmatization is that, and coming from a moderator?
Viktoriusiii
New member
Fun isn't something one considers when balancing the universe. But this... does put a smile on my face.
You sort yourself to the silent majority, while basicially beeing the complete opposite of what I said is the silent majority.
Maybe it is not my definition, but you simply aren't it?
There are 2.5 million copies sold for 7d2d, yet only a few thousand are here on the forum (and even less active) and steam only has 60.000 reviews.
That leaves 2.4 million people as the "silent majority". At least the ones I talk about.
Even if half of them never once played the game because they got it through a humble bundle, it is still 1.2 million to 60.000
this is a factor of 2000%
THIS is the silent majority I (and probably MM as well) are talking about.
You are more or less the opposite, even if you do not post regularly. You read development on the forums, you interact with the community by writing reviews and all that.
No hard feelings <3
madmole
Fun Pimps Staff
Hypothetically speaking, isn't going after the money making the best game? I mean if more people buy A "went for the money version" than B "the other" version, isn't verion A the best game? More people like it, buy it, play it, the best game wins. We're just out to make the best game we can. Build it and they will come. So if you build a great game the money is obviously going to come IMO.
lol, while you do sort of have a point, he stated EVERYONE who is the silent majority does not invite friends, does not play experimental, does not continuously play, etc. That is not an opinion in my view. It is made up facts.
Certainly some amount of the "silent majority" do indeed do those things. Maybe 1%, maybe 50%, maybe 90% do at least one of those things... i certainly don't know for sure. Neither do you or him lol. But I hope we can all realistically agree that his statement is false.
Personally, I consider the "silent majority" and the "silent minority" for that matter to be the people who rarely, if ever, speak up with their opinions for whatever reason. Assuming that means they have no opinion, don't keep abreast of the news, and don't actively play is just wrong.
I actually often see "long time lurker, first time poster" type comments. The lurkers are part of the silent group.
Viktoriusiii
New member
Yes. Because EA really REALLY just makes the best games...
I mean... seriously? I thought better of you.
Also one more quote to save.
"If it makes money, then it is good quality!"
Money will come if you make a great game.
A great game will not come from going after the money.
This is basic logic.
Wrong:
Every icebear is a bear.
A brownbear is a bear.
There for a brownbear is an icebear.
Right:
Every icebear is a bear.
Knut (an icebear from germany) is an icebear.
There for Knut is a bear.
There is a difference. And this should not be equated.
(also wrong but with money and games as an example)
Good games make money.
Following the money makes money.
There for following the money makes great games.
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IDK, do you think mobile games are the best game?
Mobile games make up over 30+% of the video game market. That means you are likely to make more money with a mobile game then with PC or Console.
Please say you don't agree that mobile games are the best game :cower:
https://www.wepc.com/news/video-game-statistics/
Certainly no hard feelings.Fun isn't something one considers when balancing the universe. But this... does put a smile on my face.
You sort yourself to the silent majority, while basicially beeing the complete opposite of what I said is the silent majority.
Maybe it is not my definition, but you simply aren't it?
There are 2.5 million copies sold for 7d2d, yet only a few thousand are here on the forum (and even less active) and steam only has 60.000 reviews.
That leaves 2.4 million people as the "silent majority". At least the ones I talk about.
Even if half of them never once played the game because they got it through a humble bundle, it is still 1.2 million to 60.000
this is a factor of 2000%
THIS is the silent majority I (and probably MM as well) are talking about.
You are more or less the opposite, even if you do not post regularly. You read development on the forums, you interact with the community by writing reviews and all that.
No hard feelings <3
It sounds like what you are counting as the "silent majority" are the inactive players. The ones who got it through humble bundle and the ones who purchased it, played a few hours, and were done with it. I would call them the uninterested, not silent.
What I mean by the "silent majority" are the people who are happily or not so happily playing at least semi-regularly but who either never visit game forums or who read but rarely or never post.
I've been gaming for 40+ years, and know many gamers. I would say that 90% of the gamers I know rarely if ever visit any game forums. Most of them go to you-tube or twitch if they want information.
Participation on forums does not equal interest or activity in a game. There are passionate fans of this game and lots of others who play, get friends to play, and keep up with the game development without ever visiting the forums and posting their opinions. To me, these are the silent majority, not the people who just aren't interested in the game.
Viktoriusiii
New member
well... we certainly have different opinions on what "silent majority" means
I mean those that are not fans of the product. Who play it, but do not interact with the community in any way.
They might still like it, but not enough to actually register somewhere or write a review.
So for me, you are not a silent majority. You are a less active minority. But you still do read the forums, you still do all that.
And this: "I would say that 90% of the gamers I know rarely if ever visit any game forums. Most of them go to you-tube or twitch if they want information." is what I mean by silent minority.
I was not only reffering to forum, but reviews on steam.
If you are not on the forums and you do not interact with its community and try to give advice/share your dreams, you can be called a silent majority. Those are, as you put it... the 90% majority. (even more but yea)
These are the people I (and probably MM) mean by silent majority.
They are silent towards the community, even if they watch videos on the game or something. (the line is obviously not as clear as I put it! If they spend an hour a day arguing with other fans in the youtube comments, I would no longer call them silent
but the overall definition for me would be:"A player who plays a game but does not interact with the rest of the playerbase and/or shares his ideas/ideals and opinions about the game."
madmole
Fun Pimps Staff
I think when players lose their ability to be thinking "I wonder if I can do this" because something is so utterly simple its been beat down too much. A system needs to be easy to learn, but make you ponder the complexity that might be possible. Simple and deep is TFP's motto. So you learn something easily but that system supports deeper more meaningful game play later in the game.
If I recall your spread pattern with machineguns got tighter as you progressed among other things you could see/feel. It was pretty well done back in the day. It was disappointing when they took it out and the weight stuff.
Guppycur
Well-known member
Most EA games would disagree with you on that. Most popular doesn't mean the best. Plenty of ♥♥♥♥ titles that did well to show that.
But that's not your issue, because you have the makings of a great game.
That I'm still here is evidence ("I" is all of your long term loyalists), but you also have the responsibility of a designer and owner, two hats that don't always see eye to eye... I don't envy you and the decisions you have to make.
I'm in a much better position than you because I get to push for features without ANY of the responsibility of actually running a company based on them.
A lot of guys don't seem to see it that way, but I'm a pragmatist.
I suspect y'all have learned a lot and your next title will be on a much more strict schedule... Which will suck for me because I like the "it's out when it's ready" mantra.
Dunno where I was going with this other than to say y'all are gonna be just fine.
- - - Updated - - -
You're kinda abrasive. What happened to you, you used to be nicer.
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