PC Game Development 101 (and other arguments)

[Guppycur]

@madmole

Total Annihilation vs StarCraft.

No doubt StarCraft wiped the floor of TA in sales, but TA was *much* better. It took 3D terrain into account, had better balance, and the mod support was unbelievable... bring in models, change ai, maps, etc ...

StarCraft had unit limits, 2D maps, crappy AI and basically the majority of "mods" was mere new maps.

Descent vs Quake, Dungeon Siege vs Diablo, the list goes on...

...the thing the more popular games had in common was they were easy to learn. That's it.

Of course this was all before big marketing money was thrown into a video game, and online gaming was either through Kali or proprietary online lobbies that sucked, so times have changed somewhat.

Anyway, rambling now... Peace.

 

[madmole]

Again with the silent majority... (all the following is granting you that the silent majority actually agrees with you, which I would only grant you in certain situations)
The silent majority:

-doesn't invite friends

-doens't care about changes

-doesn't keep playing (for current player numbers)

-doesn't write reviews

-does not try and help as best as they can by participating in experimental

If you want to attract a casual audience, you'll need lots of media coverage.

There is a reason why small developers only get bigger fanbases with complex or at least expansive gameplay.

Basicially there is two ways to get more players:

a) your a big corp and just spend millions on advertising. This is the EA route. ♥♥♥♥ty gameplay but advertising to impressionables works most often

b) your a small studio which mostly spreads with word of mouth. These should NOT care about the silent majority. You want those who tell their friends. You want to show them that you care so that they have hope in the future of the game. You want good reviews for the silent majority to have something they can base their descicion to buy it on. You want to keep player numbers high to get more coverage by keeping long time/hardcore fans interested.

This does not mean that you have to bend over for those players.

But A17 was the other way round. You bent over the caring minority and argued that the silent majority will like them so its fine. And the way you argue, I do not feel like you have learned from A17... even if a lot of the stuff for A18 sounds promising. Your ATTITUDE is the same... which worries me a bit.

Again: I have NO problem with you making more money. I would love if this was more a passion project and fans actually meant something to you, but I do understand that after years of this there has to be some "work is work" attitude.

But your argument of the silent majority makes no sense even if they actually would prefer simple gameplay. Which sometimes might be true... but definatly not always.

I don't have time for long debates. I think people will really like A18. I was not on board with some designs the new guy who left was doing for 17 and I've taken over all of that. I am so passionate about fixing the big issues 17 had I worked a lot of hours just so I can be cruising to the finish line now, spending more hours playing than I am doing dev. We basically touched about everything game play wise. We ran xp tests using various characters and attributes with specific testers. We wrote code to give us reports on how much xp was scored doing various activities. We've done so much work on 18, I think its going to be a huge success.

Will it be perfect? No, but it will be the most balanced version ever, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. It finally feels like you can build some interesting characters and specialization feels pretty good. I have a lot of hopes for 18. I think all the pieces to the 7 days meat pie are back in place. 17 was a technical marvel but good game play is not technology. All the fun toys came online too late to create a masterpiece with. A17 blobbed some paint on the canvas and roughed in some images, but 18 perfected it. We had a full cycle with finished tools and a new badass art team and full code support to do stuff that wasn't possible via xml. Its been a dream building 18 for me, usually we were so bound with limits we had to make short cuts or poor choices.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I don't have time for long debates. [...]

Don't answer me if you do not have the time. I mean that in the friendliest way... just fix 7d2d and I'm all golden

Just read it please. And do not disregard it as hate. Try and understand what I might mean.

And I do not doubt a single word you said. Doesn't mean that trying to go for the "casual" gamer as an Indie game (you know what I mean... not AAA) might not be the best descicion because smaller games need a loyal playerbase to thrive and grow. Simplicity and cuasual appeal without heavy marketing will not work as well as a dedication to keeping in touch with fans and building that community. (which you are! Can't nobody say you aren't responding to fans/haters! But especially in A17 fans were... ignored is the nicest way that I can use here... and when you now say "casual makes money and money is good and the silent majority is the target audience and if it makes money its a good game" that sounds a lot like the stuff of A17... and I really... REALLY do not want that.

 

[madmole]

There is a reason why certain users started making a mocking argument of "TFPs are the creators, therefor they know better!"

They also created A17... so I am not convinced.

And just because I have crippling depression that often times keeps me from getting out of bed, does NOT mean that I have worse arguments, just because I haven't created a successfull game.

One thing I love to do is make people eat crow who doubt me. Sit back and enjoy the show, you will have a front row seat.
But if I'm right, you should be happy that 18 is very enjoyable again, yes?

At the end of the day, nothing against you at all. Do people who are sick, they don't seek out health advice from a car mechanic do they? If someone's house has a leaky roof, do they go to mcdonalds restaurant and ask the burger flipper how to fix the leaky roof? No, you talk to a professional. We typically engage in designs together and find the best solution. Guys who've been doing it for a long time. I've been at this since 94, and if you count weekends, holidays and after hours crunching I've got more like 40 years experience. This doesn't mean good ideas don't come from the forums, but I can tell you about 99.9% of them we already talked about.

And its not who's right or wrong. Its what is the best design. We all leave our ego at the door when we talk design and consider what is the best design, not who's design is best. I have an old doc somewhere called "Joel's cool ideas" and I used to love saying "another Joel's cool idea" lol. Just to get the credit I guess. But so what, anyone can think of cool ideas. Turning an idea into an executable design is the real problem. Sometimes a forum guy gets it right. Its all good, we all win. We just want to make an amazing game.

 

[madmole]

Your opinion of the "silent majority" is ridiculous.
I rarely post here, 70 posts over 3 years or so.

I have played 2609 hours in that time. I have played every experimental. I have 7 friends I convinced to buy or gifted a copy to. I did write a favorable steam review. And several of my posts were concerns regarding experimental content.

I also respond to questions or concerns posted on the steam forums that I have knowledge of and no one has answered.

I don't often post here because when I do, there are often people who belittle my opinion, make personal attacks, or act like their OPINION is fact and everyone with a different opinion is just wrong about how they feel. I just don't like to waste my time on those type of people.

However, I do read this thread daily and keep informed of what is going on. I don't like every single thing tfp does, but I don't expect to. Overall, I think each alpha I have played has been better overall than the one before and that they will end with a game I will enjoy even more than the alphas I have played extensively.

I hope madmole and the rest of the pimps keep following their vision while making adjustments based off of our feedback, as they have been doing all along.

Thanks, its good to hear from everyone. At the end of the day we're making the game we want to play, and hope our tastes align with lots of people. But if something stinks, we'll fix it. I think we have proven that a lot.

 

[pvmrenny]

Most EA games would disagree with you on that. Most popular doesn't mean the best. Plenty of ♥♥♥♥ titles that did well to show that.

How bout maybe infinite ward with COD redoing the same map over and over an charging u for the DLC? Rust maybe?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

One thing I love to do is make people eat crow who doubt me. Sit back and enjoy the show, you will have a front row seat.
But if I'm right, you should be happy that 18 is very enjoyable again, yes?

YES! Again. I do not doubt you. And by what you said a lot of the bad things in A17 were not your fault.

At the end of the day, nothing against you at all. Do people who are sick, they don't seek out health advice from a car mechanic do they? If someone's house has a leaky roof, do they go to mcdonalds restaurant and ask the burger flipper how to fix the leaky roof? No, you talk to a professional. We typically engage in designs together and find the best solution. Guys who've been doing it for a long time. I've been at this since 94, and if you count weekends, holidays and after hours crunching I've got more like 40 years experience. This doesn't mean good ideas don't come from the forums, but I can tell you about 99.9% of them we already talked about.

And its not who's right or wrong. Its what is the best design. We all leave our ego at the door when we talk design and consider what is the best design, not who's design is best. I have an old doc somewhere called "Joel's cool ideas" and I used to love saying "another Joel's cool idea" lol. Just to get the credit I guess. But so what, anyone can think of cool ideas. Turning an idea into an executable design is the real problem. Sometimes a forum guy gets it right. Its all good, we all win. We just want to make an amazing game.

Super tired so I'll make this quick:

thank you for beeing nice respecting and honest even if I wasn't. Yes professionals exist for a reason. And yes they are generally more right than not (think of all the changes I HAVEN'T critizised since I joined in A8). My problem is when I feel you ARE wrong and someone defends you not by bringing an argument but by appealing to authority.

I do not care who said it, just what.

TlDr:

I will be the first to say thank you for an enjoyable A18 (I played nearly every alpha for 100-200 hours, A17 only 40 and only with Rolmod), since I am one of the most eager.

But I will also be the first to tell you that certain changes are bad (although I have not read a bad change yet. Love what you are doing with mods colors armor and so on).

Just... if I have one wish open with you...

Do not ever say stuff like "dying on that hill" again. I know it must have been frustrating.

But it was the most undiplomatic thing you could have told a disappointed fanbase.

I still think LBD would have been the greater and better system. But if you change A18 like I hope you will, it will still be a great game without it.

Have a great day and gn8.

 

[KingSlayerGM]

Hypothetically speaking, isn't going after the money making the best game? I mean if more people buy A "went for the money version" than B "the other" version, isn't verion A the best game? More people like it, buy it, play it, the best game wins. We're just out to make the best game we can. Build it and they will come. So if you build a great game the money is obviously going to come IMO.

Nah.. sales aren't always the perfect indicator of quality. Fast and furious is a great money making franchise, but is it better than the godfather? Hell no

 

[Drunkwolf]

Thanks, its good to hear from everyone. At the end of the day we're making the game we want to play, and hope our tastes align with lots of people. But if something stinks, we'll fix it. I think we have proven that a lot.

you guys have made a great game, hell i remember when the world was blocky like mine craft. it has come along way.

all we need now is a auto run button!!!

 

[madmole]

I'm going to disagree as well on what constitutes a fact to you, because rarely have I seen madmole giving cold hard facts. Most of the time he quotes random figures that he comes up with, doesn't give a source to them or any sort of explanation either.

If he doesn't want to discuss at all or win any debate then he simply shouldn't respond to people. He should post about whatever he has to say on the development of the game and not engage in a discussion, because if he does, it's natural to expect a minimum level from the "master".

Also, one can criticize or question things that are said by the teacher without having to be a "know-it-all" whom everyone dislikes. What kind of stigmatization is that, and coming from a moderator?

Why do I need to post sources? This isn't a debate, I don't have time to debate. I drop fact/heavy opinionated bombs and fly off, you should know that by now. I'm the one with credits and accomplishments here with nothing to prove. You can either believe what I say or not, but there is no argument here.

Its a very small industry and I am privy to a lot more info than the average gamer. I'm not saying I had lunch with Todd and talked about this in detail, but as a designer I see why they did what they did. Some hardcore fanboys disagree, but meh, they sold 100x more copies so how can it be a bad decision? Even if it was, they made 99 other GOOD decisions and the overall product was better, hands down. Now we'll see in ES6 if spell crafting comes back. If so then they felt it was a mistake. BUT since it hasn't been added to ESO, or Elder Scrolls Blades, (AFAIK) I can only assume that it will not be returning.

 

[madmole]

Yes. Because EA really REALLY just makes the best games... I mean... seriously? I thought better of you.

Also one more quote to save.

"If it makes money, then it is good quality!"

Money will come if you make a great game.

A great game will not come from going after the money.

This is basic logic.

Wrong:

Every icebear is a bear.

A brownbear is a bear.

There for a brownbear is an icebear.

Right:

Every icebear is a bear.

Knut (an icebear from germany) is an icebear.

There for Knut is a bear.

There is a difference. And this should not be equated.

(also wrong but with money and games as an example)

Good games make money.

Following the money makes money.

There for following the money makes great games.

Re-read what I wrote:

We're just out to make the best game we can. Build it and they will come. So if you build a great game the money is obviously going to come IMO. WTF is wrong with that?

 

[Roland]

He doesn't have access to data from Morrowind players, which are the numbers he was making up in his post and which I was referencing.



Sorry, but if you really think that this is what it is, a classroom where madmole is the teacher imparting his wisdom, then as a teacher yourself you would probably expect him to use better arguments than made up numbers or "this is better than your idea because I say so and I'm successful". That's a fallacy and is not how things should be discussed. Nobody is an absolute authority in any subject.

I'm going to disagree as well on what constitutes a fact to you, because rarely have I seen madmole giving cold hard facts. Most of the time he quotes random figures that he comes up with, doesn't give a source to them or any sort of explanation either.

If he doesn't want to discuss at all or win any debate then he simply shouldn't respond to people. He should post about whatever he has to say on the development of the game and not engage in a discussion, because if he does, it's natural to expect a minimum level from the "master".

Also, one can criticize or question things that are said by the teacher without having to be a "know-it-all" whom everyone dislikes. What kind of stigmatization is that, and coming from a moderator?

I could care less about Morrowind. I was talking about trusting the judgement of the designer of this game over random Internet personalities when it comes to design decisions about this game. (Which is why I was responding to Vik and not to you btw)

There is no absolute authority but when you have an actual designer to talk to as an authority versus a random anonymous typer setting himself up as an authority I know which is the better source.

 

[madmole]

I can totally handle it; that's why I'm responding to it with my own opinion on your opinion. Handling it doesn't mean I should stay quiet if I don't agree! :smile-new:

Thats good, I thought you were offended, like yeah I'm brash or quickly to the point, and sometimes that stirs the pot too much.

 

[madmole]

@madmole
Total Annihilation vs StarCraft.

No doubt StarCraft wiped the floor of TA in sales, but TA was *much* better. It took 3D terrain into account, had better balance, and the mod support was unbelievable... bring in models, change ai, maps, etc ...

StarCraft had unit limits, 2D maps, crappy AI and basically the majority of "mods" was mere new maps.

Descent vs Quake, Dungeon Siege vs Diablo, the list goes on...

...the thing the more popular games had in common was they were easy to learn. That's it.

Of course this was all before big marketing money was thrown into a video game, and online gaming was either through Kali or proprietary online lobbies that sucked, so times have changed somewhat.

Anyway, rambling now... Peace.

I played TA first, so no need for starcraft Mods were insane.

 

[madmole]

Don't answer me if you do not have the time. I mean that in the friendliest way... just fix 7d2d and I'm all golden Just read it please. And do not disregard it as hate. Try and understand what I might mean.

And I do not doubt a single word you said. Doesn't mean that trying to go for the "casual" gamer as an Indie game (you know what I mean... not AAA) might not be the best descicion because smaller games need a loyal playerbase to thrive and grow. Simplicity and cuasual appeal without heavy marketing will not work as well as a dedication to keeping in touch with fans and building that community. (which you are! Can't nobody say you aren't responding to fans/haters! But especially in A17 fans were... ignored is the nicest way that I can use here... and when you now say "casual makes money and money is good and the silent majority is the target audience and if it makes money its a good game" that sounds a lot like the stuff of A17... and I really... REALLY do not want that.

17 fans were not ignored, we're just not reverting to A16. We feel 18 is a nice hybrid of stuff that was good in 16 and 17 with lots of new stuff. We'll find out soon, its not incredibly far off now.

 

[Drithyl]

Thats good, I thought you were offended, like yeah I'm brash or quickly to the point, and sometimes that stirs the pot too much.

No, not at all offended on a personal level. I just think a lot of your game, which makes me expect a lot from every word of the developers. Perhaps too much. That said and coming back on topic, so far I like most of the changes that a18 is bringing, so as much as we may disagree on design, I'm satisfied with where things are headed. Modding will do the rest, as far as more complexity goes

 

[Odetta]

@Roland

Does this grind your gears?

 

[Crater Creator]

well... we certainly have different opinions on what "silent majority" means I mean those that are not fans of the product. Who play it, but do not interact with the community in any way.

They might still like it, but not enough to actually register somewhere or write a review.

So for me, you are not a silent majority. You are a less active minority. But you still do read the forums, you still do all that.

And this: "I would say that 90% of the gamers I know rarely if ever visit any game forums. Most of them go to you-tube or twitch if they want information." is what I mean by silent minority.

I was not only reffering to forum, but reviews on steam.

If you are not on the forums and you do not interact with its community and try to give advice/share your dreams, you can be called a silent majority. Those are, as you put it... the 90% majority. (even more but yea)

These are the people I (and probably MM) mean by silent majority.

They are silent towards the community, even if they watch videos on the game or something. (the line is obviously not as clear as I put it! If they spend an hour a day arguing with other fans in the youtube comments, I would no longer call them silent but the overall definition for me would be:

"A player who plays a game but does not interact with the rest of the playerbase and/or shares his ideas/ideals and opinions about the game."

The hole in the logic comes if this silent majority is defined in a way that any claims made about them are unfalsifiable. No one can claim to be a representative from the silent majority, because that excludes them by definition. Then anyone can say this majority "doens’t care about changes" or whatever they like, and it’s impossible to refute. At least, unless you have analytics that can suss out player's preferences whether or not they participate, solely from what they're recorded doing in the game.

 

[Odetta]

Well, there goes trying to change the subject...

 

[THARN]

The hole in the logic comes if this silent majority is defined in a way that any claims made about them are unfalsifiable. No one can claim to be a representative from the silent majority, because that excludes them by definition. Then anyone can say this majority "doens’t care about changes" or whatever they like, and it’s impossible to refute. At least, unless you have analytics that can suss out player's preferences whether or not they participate, solely from what they're recorded doing in the game.

Majority rules.... or at least that's how it used to be when everything was well and good.

Now its the 5% that scream and moan..and witht he help of the internet appear to be more like 50%....