PC Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

The old caverns were pretty cool. The fun of realizing that some of those pits were flooded! ;)

Oh...and wights....they lived in caves.

Mining was very cool. Veins always corkscrewed up forcing you to dig up through unstable shelves. Gravel was treacherous!...I recall running in terror from the tumbling, rolling, laughing gravel trying to crush the life out of me! I don't even remember why I needed all that iron...but I sure wanted it!

-Morloc

 
The old caverns were pretty cool. The fun of realizing that some of those pits were flooded! ;)
Oh...and wights....they lived in caves.

Mining was very cool. Veins always corkscrewed up forcing you to dig up through unstable shelves. Gravel was treacherous!...I recall running in terror from the tumbling, rolling, laughing gravel trying to crush the life out of me! I don't even remember why I needed all that iron...but I sure wanted it!

-Morloc
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So caverns were in an older alpha? I didn't get the game until like A15, and didn't seriously play until A16. If so why did they remove them?

 
^^ This. And as I have recently mentioned to Roland, now the amount of effort is so prohibitive that I doubt anyone but those with too much free time OR using cheat menu are bothering. I know I will never make an underground base unless I cheat in a prefab I made in the editor.
After some discourse with Roland I understand the dev's point of view but its misguided because making legit underground bases takes a lot of effort, and adding digging zombies is adding salt to the wound. I CAN understand though making it not possible to completely hide from the hordes (the point of digging zombies in the first place). So, they just need to address the AI to make it so they don't just dig willy-nilly. As I mentioned to him though if the AI problems are addressed then I'll be mostly ok with it then.

To be clear, I am talking about making an underground HORDE base, not an underground "cheese" or complete zombie avoidance base. It takes quite a lot of effort even using the auger, which you won't have early game, to drill out the required area. So it's not like you can even do this early game. Now early game you CAN just dig straight to bedrock and mine out a few square meters but that's not what I'm referring to. I am talking a legit full base that is also horde proof.
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Reading this has me suspecting that what you and perhaps others want to be able to do is start on your base during the very first week of the game. This is a mistake. An underground base is going to be fun and worthwhile after you have the supporting perks and tools with mods that will make it much less work. Take over a POI for the first couple of weeks and then pick a great spot to start your underground bunker.

or (as of 17.2)

Change the options to give the player 300% block damage and then you can get started much sooner.

 
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So caverns were in an older alpha? I didn't get the game until like A15, and didn't seriously play until A16. If so why did they remove them?
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Go play Alpha 11. Carry plenty of Splints. :)

They were removed because of SI and performance problems. They've been trying to get them returned but it has been problematic. Hopefully they will figure it out.

 
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Reading this has me suspecting that what you and perhaps others want to be able to do is start on your base during the very first week of the game. This is a mistake. An underground base is going to be fun and worthwhile after you have the supporting perks and tools with mods that will make it much less work.
or (as of 17.2)

Change the options to give the player 300% block damage and then you can get started much sooner.
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No that is not really my problem. My problem is it's not even possible towards end-game without extreme patience. At least not until TFP address the AI problems I have brought up in this thread. And even with the auger, the sheer scale of effort is prohibitive, even without digging zombies. I once tried to make a base like this, in A16.4 with my friend. It took like 2 game weeks, and I finally got bored and quit because digging all day every day just got mind numbingly boring. It kinda feels like we should have some end-game equipment that is even better than the auger for drilling. Maybe an electrically powered mining rig or something.

 
Reading this has me suspecting that what you and perhaps others want to be able to do is start on your base during the very first week of the game. This is a mistake. An underground base is going to be fun and worthwhile after you have the supporting perks and tools with mods that will make it much less work. Take over a POI for the first couple of weeks and then pick a great spot to start your underground bunker.
or (as of 17.2)

Change the options to give the player 300% block damage and then you can get started much sooner.
Click to expand...

You're "mistake" is another person's definition of how it should be done. I'll give you that in A17, it feels much more like a mistake now. Fair enough there.

And why are you defining how an underground base is fun? I thought you don't do underground bases?

 
Maybe I'm old-fashioned but I feel the fact that zombies penetrate my base and kill me is a problem. I had in Alpha 15 an underground base with a fall pit and a feral wight fell in a horde night somehow through the ground and destroyed me a chemistry station. That's why I'm not so excited when zombies hang around near my workstations and my storage.
Sure you can build a base on the bedrock but how far up can you go until the zombies hear you? I don't know any reliable numbers but apparently the zombies can hear you easily through 30-35m rock.

Besides the underground bases are one thing but another thing are mines.

You can't choose the depth in which you want to find the resources. For example, I have an iron mine in which the zombies walk quite often because it lies just below the surface. So I had to build a defense here.
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that was just the initial horde night - i let them dig down and kill me on purpose so i wouldn't have to dig the pit trap myself. after that there were no problems. all my chem station/workbench/forges have concrete ceilings above them, as well as additional layers above that. the pit trap has concrete pillars which the zombies cant chew through in time before i blast them to death with shotgun

i always dig down to bedrock first, then start digging in different directions gathering stone. eventually i'll hit a vein. as i clear the vein, in the empty space left behind, i throw up concrete blocks and make rooms. as i follow the veins up, i build additional compartments. in this way i am perfectly safe. if on horde night the zombies dont fall down pit trap bug dig an alternate path, theyll still hit the concrete compartments, and then i can contain teh breach.

 
Go play Alpha 11. Carry plenty of Splints. :)

They were removed because of SI and performance problems. They've been trying to get them returned but it has been problematic. Hopefully they will figure it out.
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Ha, remembering when broken legs were so much easier to get, and actually crippling. Running down a hill or falling in a cave was bad news.

 
No that is not really my problem. My problem is it's not even possible towards end-game without extreme patience. At least not until TFP address the AI problems I have brought up in this thread. And even with the auger, the sheer scale of effort is prohibitive, even without digging zombies. I once tried to make a base like this, in A16.4 with my friend. It took like 2 game weeks, and I finally got bored and quit because digging all day every day just got mind numbingly boring. It kinda feels like we should have some end-game equipment that is even better than the auger for drilling. Maybe an electrically powered mining rig or something.
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I've done the underground base in about every play through. Almost always, with nothing more than a shovel and pickaxe. I think I had and used an auger on one playthrough and tossed it because the dang thing wore down so fast and was annoying.

How people say it's easy or no effort going underground is just a sign of their ignorance. Which... why they have talk smack about a game play style they don't use is beyond me.

 
You're "mistake" is another person's definition of how it should be done. I'll give you that in A17, it feels much more like a mistake now. Fair enough there.
And why are you defining how an underground base is fun? I thought you don't do underground bases?
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Im pretty sure he was answering the user who stated its just to much work to build a horde base underground. And that its less work with proper tools and perks. He even mentioned the new option to speed things up. Still seeing it all clearly?

Cheers

 
Im pretty sure he was answering the user who stated its just to much work to build a horde base underground. And that its less work with proper tools and perks. He even mentioned the new option to speed things up. Still seeing it all clearly?
Cheers
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Fair point. Bad me for skimming... /selfhandslap

 
I've done the underground base in about every play through. Almost always, with nothing more than a shovel and pickaxe. I think I had and used an auger on one playthrough and tossed it because the dang thing wore down so fast and was annoying.
How people say it's easy or no effort going underground is just a sign of their ignorance. Which... why they have talk smack about a game play style they don't use is beyond me.
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And you made a horde base out of it? In A17? Again the problem with making underground horde bases (not just underground bases to store your crap, that's different, I agree, that much is easy to do in the first week without an auger) takes tremendous effort due to the cheesy digging AI.

- - - Updated - - -

They were removed because of SI and performance problems. They've been trying to get them returned but it has been problematic. Hopefully they will figure it out.
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Thanks for this info. I would be very happy if it comes back.

 
You're "mistake" is another person's definition of how it should be done. I'll give you that in A17, it feels much more like a mistake now. Fair enough there.
And why are you defining how an underground base is fun? I thought you don't do underground bases?
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My analysis that it is mistake is based upon people saying it is too much work or impossible because of how tough it is to dig. It's just like the mistake people make trying to break into safes with a brown stoneaxe on day one. I mean I guess its not a mistake if they enjoy that. The people complaining don't seem to be enjoying it so....mistake. If they wait until they are prepared to go underground then it is more fun and....not a mistake.

This totally reminds me of a reviewer who went into the wasteland hub city on day one while still naked and only a stone axe and complained that the game was impossible and overwhelming. Uh....no. He made a clear mistake. You wait and gear up and prepare before going into the wasteland. You wait and gear up and prepare before breaking safes. You wait and gear up and perk up before going underground. There is nothing wrong with the design as there needs to be places that are accessible from Day One and others that are better accessed later on after some character growth.

I'm defining how an underground base is fun for me. You don't see ME complaining about it because I'm not making the same mistake others are. And I used to dig all the time back when zombies did too. Then I stopped for a few alphas. Something just recently sparked my interest in it again.

Probably the game getting in touch with it's roots again.

 
I think another part of my critique is that there is almost zero incentive or reason to build bases (at least ones that are for fighting the horde) underground. I am fair and do list a couple of pros, but they aren't really enough to motivate me to ever make horde bases underground. I want to be clear in emphasizing horde base because underground bases are still useful to hide your loot.

Pros

- non blood moon hordes don't really bother you (about the only positive I can think of?)... but that's pointless if you're going for a horde base anyway?

- might get you closer to some ore deposits.. again though, this is more of a pro for a non-horde base

Cons

- can not effectively make it without auger. Horde bases need to be fairly large and set up with lots of traps to be effective, which means lots and lots of digging. if you want to have a nice ramp leading from the surface all the way to bedrock made of concrete and not just have a ghetto terrain ramp (A bad idea with digging zombies) this is where most of the effort lies.

- very time consuming, even with auger, at least until digging zombies are fixed to actually take your entrances rather than dig straight down (Currently the only solution is to layer up your base)

So my conclusion is... what's the point of trying to make horde bases underground other than to try something different (and if that's your goal, then OK, fair enough)?

You can't make underground horde bases early, and they are not any better than above ground bases anyway especially with the addition of digging zombies and a cheesy AI that will dig through your walls too instead of taking your entrances (unless you layer up). They are both more time and resource expensive for no benefit other than the novelty of trying something different. In general if I put more effort and resources into something, I expect a return on my investment. Which isn't the case.

 
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Reading this has me suspecting that what you and perhaps others want to be able to do is start on your base during the very first week of the game. This is a mistake. An underground base is going to be fun and worthwhile after you have the supporting perks and tools with mods that will make it much less work. Take over a POI for the first couple of weeks and then pick a great spot to start your underground bunker.
or (as of 17.2)

Change the options to give the player 300% block damage and then you can get started much sooner.
Click to expand...
I say your suspicion is correct. I do want to start playing in the first week of the game. I appreciate your opinion that my decision to begin playing in the first week of the game is a mistake, but you state it as a fact when it is simply your opinion.

Yes, I want to start my base during the first week. We take over a church. Start a shaft going down. Someone spends their first couple of nights banging with a stone axe until we have a ladder going down to bedrock. We slowly enlarge the thing over the course of the first week. We've done that from 15-17 and it's worked so far. It still works in 17, it is just a lot slower. But we do it, and though you think it is a mistake I can assure you that our server playstyle is not very unlike the playstyles you see on many streamer channels. Primarily because we watch the streamers and there is obviously going to be replication.

But I must agree with Jackelmyer. People who kept their forges and workstations and storage underground in their vast tunnel networks that connected their dozens of outposts all over the map feel targeted. Most of us weren't trying to avoid fighting the horde on horde night. If I wanted to do that I would just run in a large circle around my base, ride a bike for thirty seconds, dismount, do some looting, cut down a tree, then get back on before the horde catches me. Or I would spend all night treading water. There are too many mechanics for avoiding the horde that specifically targeting underground playstyles seemed, erm, targeted.

Much as removing zombie loot and harvesting to try to address item duping. We still have item duping and now less bones. It just always seems an overreaction.

 
I think the confusion may lie in the key distinguishment

- Non horde underground base

- Horde underground base

Two very different things. The former is very easy to do, even with a stone or iron shovel. The latter takes tremendous effort, even with an auger. The latter is what I'm salty about.

And even within horde underground base there are two potential flavors of them

- building only structures at bedrock. this works and is less time consuming than the next option I will describe, but results in swiss cheese terrain

- building structure that leads from surface to bedrock. this involves a very large scale operation, especially if you want a ramp big enough to drive vehicles in to bedrock while also having room for traps for the horde when they come in at horde night. this is the kind of base I want to make. if you just use "terrain" for the entrance, you can be all but guaranteed the horde is going to tear it up. the horde will still tear it up unless you layer it up 2,3,4,5x+ layer of blocks depending on the size of it and how the AI works.

the argument one would likely make is that of course what I want is going to take some work, and I don't deny that, but I just think its ridiculous that I have to make multiple layers. It would not be nearly as time consuming if I only need to have one layer and just have a big clear entrance for zombies and they'd take it rather than dig. THIS is what I am complaining about. I am bolding this to make my point clear. IF this aspect of AI is addressed, I will probably stop being salty.

 
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I say your suspicion is correct. I do want to start playing in the first week of the game. I appreciate your opinion that my decision to begin playing in the first week of the game is a mistake, but you state it as a fact when it is simply your opinion.Yes, I want to start my base during the first week. We take over a church. Start a shaft going down. Someone spends their first couple of nights banging with a stone axe until we have a ladder going down to bedrock. We slowly enlarge the thing over the course of the first week. We've done that from 15-17 and it's worked so far. It still works in 17, it is just a lot slower. But we do it, and though you think it is a mistake I can assure you that our server playstyle is not very unlike the playstyles you see on many streamer channels. Primarily because we watch the streamers and there is obviously going to be replication.

But I must agree with Jackelmyer. People who kept their forges and workstations and storage underground in their vast tunnel networks that connected their dozens of outposts all over the map feel targeted. Most of us weren't trying to avoid fighting the horde on horde night. If I wanted to do that I would just run in a large circle around my base, ride a bike for thirty seconds, dismount, do some looting, cut down a tree, then get back on before the horde catches me. Or I would spend all night treading water. There are too many mechanics for avoiding the horde that specifically targeting underground playstyles seemed, erm, targeted.

Much as removing zombie loot and harvesting to try to address item duping. We still have item duping and now less bones. It just always seems an overreaction.
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If you are enjoying yourself then it isn't a mistake. In my opinion, going to bedrock with a brown stone axe, zero perks into stamina, and zero perks into strength and mining would be a phenomenal mistake. What's the deal with saying something is a mistake? You're acting like I called your Mother or Sister a name or something. Of course it is my opinion. What's so threatening about making mistakes? I make plenty and then I learn from them. I learned that breaking into safes was much more rewarding if I had an iron sledgehammer and some buffs to looting. I DID break open a safe once on day one with my brown stone axe and my zero looting ability and it was a big mistake and I learned from it. Let me separate some facts and opinions for you since you are having a tough time understanding implicitly what I'm giving as a fact and as an opinion.

Fact: Digging to bedrock with a tier 1 stone axe and no perks or mods will be very slow and stamina killing.

Opinion: If you don't like tedious repetitive activity with extremely slow progress and frequent necessary breaks to regain stamina then doing so is a huuuuuuuuge mistake.

Fact: There are places and activities in the game that are better visited and done once you have developed your character a bit

Opinion: I wish there was even more of this in the game as it gives you something to work towards.

Fact: People will wander into areas too dangerous for their current level and try to do things sooner than they are prepared to be able to do those things quickly and easily.

Opinion: If they did it for extra challenge or inadvertently then they should be happy or learn to avoid it the next time but not complain and expect the devs to make all places and all activities accessible from Day 1.

Opinion: People crying over tough and tedious gameplay that can be solved 100% by spending some time developing their character first is ridiculous and I pray the devs don't take their complaints seriously.

 
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My humble opinion is horde-worthy base construction, whether above or below ground, is mostly determined by the number of people playing together. If you are solo, it’s quite difficult to get an above-ground blood moon horde-proof base by day 7 let alone an underground version. So if you are playing solo, you must take that into consideration as you plan how you proceed. Playing this game as coop eliminates many of the restrictions that are placed on solo players. Playing with even one other person, you can easily have an above-ground blood moon horde-proof base by day7 and an underground version possibly by day 14 but definitely by day 21. Add a third person and we are horde-proof above and below ground by day 14. Playing solo is a serious handicap and maybe this is where the angst is coming from. However, I cannot imagine a way that removes some of impediments from playing solo that doesn’t, at the same time, make the coop game much easier & therefore possibly more boring. Underground bases are definitely possible, it just takes a bit longer than it has in other alphas especially if you are solo. I know my post offers no solution....that hopefully comes from someone’s else’s brilliant mind. However I wholeheartedly disagree that underground horde bases are impossible, just takes more work and more time.

 
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Opinion: People crying over tough and tedious gameplay that can be solved 100% by spending some time developing their character first is ridiculous and I pray the devs don't take their complaints seriously.
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You misspelt "Fact"

 
Fact: Alpha 18 will be eventually released

Opinion: Folks will still believe that it still doesn't conform to their ideas and opinions of a Zombie Survival sandbox game and spend time here on the forums instead of actually playing. :smile-new:

 
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