Exploration For The Sake of Exploration

[Kyoji]

I can. Trader rewards were nerfed to nothing when a min-maxer said they were too powerful for but one example. So I can't imagine those who do follow the so-called "questing" route almost exclusively have much incentive to do so when the "reward" is a few bullets or corns on the cob or baked potatoes and magazines found just as quickly simply by looting. Their only advantage is that they're paid jobs. You also get a few Dukes for doing them. Otherwise, why bother?

I don't understand why we have quests period. All they do is funnel you into specific POIs in exchange for extra rewards. Is there much of a difference between finding supplies and clearing? Night generators are a neat concept though so I suppose it isn't a complete wash.

Also, I don't think playing the game as it's incentivized is min-maxing. In a game where there was no concept of time like ARK then it makes much less of a difference, but in a game where you are against the clock and have to perform at a certain level to survive then yes you can't just go around and admire the flowers.

 

[Grandpa Minion]

There's nothing to hold your interest for much longer in solo play

This is one of the main reasons so many players end up coming to pvp eventually.
pve becomes to easy with no challenge to hold your interest while pvp never lacks excitement,
no matter what happens you still have to contend with other players which can be rewarding or disappointing. Pvp has an end game (raiding).

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

This is one of the main reasons so many players end up coming to pvp eventually.
pve becomes to easy with no challenge to hold your interest while pvp never lacks excitement,
no matter what happens you still have to contend with other players which can be rewarding or disappointing. Pvp has an end game (raiding).

I imagine only those interested in PvP in the first place will make their way to PvP. I certainly won't, guaranteed.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I don't understand why we have quests period. All they do is funnel you into specific POIs in exchange for extra rewards. Is there much of a difference between finding supplies and clearing? Night generators are a neat concept though so I suppose it isn't a complete wash.

Also, I don't think playing the game as it's incentivized is min-maxing. In a game where there was no concept of time like ARK then it makes much less of a difference, but in a game where you are against the clock and have to perform at a certain level to survive then yes you can't just go around and admire the flowers.

I think theFlu hit it on the head. Problem is: that's all there is to do as far as stuctured gameplay goes. Story mode will add a few hours of more structured gameplay that will get very old, very fast. Everything has been hung on those trader odd jobs and there's no reason to explore if all you're going to find is junk.

I've found only one reason to explore: to admire the architecture of the POIs. Round up the zombies and take 'em out only so I can admire that architecture. But I've run out of architecture to admire. That may be why they're thinking just adding more and more POIs will resolve the lack of meaningful exploration when it most definitely will not. They could add POIs forever and still not resolve that problem, especially in the wilderness, imo.

 

[Lax]

...resolve the lack of meaningful exploration...

So then, what would make exploration "more" meaningful? Would it take an approach like say No Man's Sky or Elite Dangerous, both games that provide the gamer with countless alien worlds, star systems to explore?

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

So then, what would make exploration "more" meaningful? Would it take an approach like say No Man's Sky or Elite Dangerous, both games that provide the gamer with countless alien worlds, star systems to explore?

Don't get me started on the "countless" bs, dude. How'd that work out for Starfield? Bigger is not always better and more is not always good. But triple A development studios, especially, have it in their heads that we want "infinite" games in which to spend the entirety of our actual lifetimes. Publishing CEOs love the idea, of course, because they want us to live and work and play and shop exclusively in their games.

As for what would make it more meaningful, a few suggestions have been made thus far. The "legendary" system forthcoming will help a lot provided the legendary or "named" weapons are sufficiently distributed. It would also help a lot if rewards and loot were like they were in A21, imo.

It's not a RPG, so I don't expect the kind of meaningful choice and consequence experience you get in an actual RPG. Your only choices are of combat build -- weapons and armor to use and so forth. So, when I say meaningful in this context I mean provide some incentive, e.g. a chance for that "nice surprise" weapon or tool or something. I can only admire POIs so much.

 

[Riamus]

Now there's a game that does exploration right!

I like the game, but I'm not sure how much I agree with this. Yes, there are great things to see, so exploring on a single game is great. But I don't think the map changes, so you won't see anything new is you play it a second time. And you basically get the same things in each given location of the game. There isn't really a surprise or a lucky find. But I do agree that for a single game, it is great.

I can. Trader rewards were nerfed to nothing when a min-maxer said they were too powerful for but one example. So I can't imagine those who do follow the so-called "questing" route almost exclusively have much incentive to do so when the "reward" is a few bullets or corns on the cob or baked potatoes and magazines found just as quickly simply by looting. Their only advantage is that they're paid jobs. You also get a few Dukes for doing them. Otherwise, why bother?

I do quests because I like them. I don't do them for rewards, which is good since the rewards aren't any good.

 

[Lax]

I think something that could make gameplay, exploration more meaningful is something that has been mentioned before but probably needs to be explored more: "random encounters"

Sorta similar to what Bethesda termed their "Radiant AI". Whether in the wilderness or a POI, it could make for some interesting gameplay if done right. Huge "if".

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I do quests because I like them. I don't do them for rewards, which is good since the rewards aren't any good.

Why do you like them? Knowing why someone -- anyone -- does might help tamp down the "there should be no quests, period"...stuff.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 8:32 PM

I think something that could make gameplay, exploration more meaningful is something that has been mentioned before but probably needs to be explored more: "random encounters"

Sorta similar to what Bethesda termed their "Radiant AI". Whether in the wilderness or a POI, it could make for some interesting gameplay if done right. Huge "if".

I got the impression from the stream that such are forthcoming. The new system can not only help with the problem of air drops falling atop skyscrapers and the like. I'd think it could be used for just such random encounters that will enhance emergent gameplay. Beth's "radiant" system is not much different than the trader quest system is now: go to random location; do random, meaningless thing. Hate them myself. But random encounters are different. They can only be so random, of course. Too funny to come to that bridge in Far Harbour and know there would one of two things there: Super Mutants or a field of land mines. Mix it up well enough and that wouldl add a lot to gameplay.

 

[NiteViper]

I think something that could make gameplay, exploration more meaningful is something that has been mentioned before but probably needs to be explored more: "random encounters"

Sorta similar to what Bethesda termed their "Radiant AI". Whether in the wilderness or a POI, it could make for some interesting gameplay if done right. Huge "if".

I had a strange random encounter last night, I stepped out of my base and a roaming horde of zombie dogs ran past my base, it was led by a dire wolf, the wolf kept running but the 4 dogs turned and charged me. I killed them and went after the dire wolf; I watched it drop dead in front of me without hitting it.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

I had a strange random encounter last night, I stepped out of my base and a roaming horde of zombie dogs ran past my base, it was led by a dire wolf, the wolf kept running but the 4 dogs turned and charged me. I killed them and went after the dire wolf; I watched it drop dead in front of me without hitting it.

Just by virtue of roaming "hordes" and enemies placed in proximity to one another you'll very occasionally get the "Hmm. Look at that. Zombies are fighting a bear." What do you know? They happen to be in proximity. By emergent gameplay, Lax and I are speaking of something much different: "structured" randomization in the sense of having places on the map where anything from a herd of deer to hunt to a bandit ambush can be set up and randomized sufficiently to avoid the "Super Mutants or land mines," completely preditable trap.

 

[Rotor]

I don't quest, I survive.

And I explore far and wide before the 7th day.

Although far and wide is relative, when you are on foot and can't fill up your water jar.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 9:05 PM

I watched it drop dead in front of me without hitting it.

You don't yet know the true power....oops wrong game.

 

[EvilPolygons]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately. In a general sense, exploring is exploring regardless of why you're doing it. But as much as I enjoy doing quests, something about it just feels empty and hollow. I always feel way more engaged and immersed in the game when I'm scouting out areas or poking around in POIs for survival reasons...or even just out of curiosity. But the fact that traders are willing to pay and reward me for running missions makes that the more desirable path in terms of pure game mechanics.

One thing I've considered is a mod limiting trader quests to one per day. Not just a progression limit (which is already an option), but a hard limit. So then it would no longer be a choice between one or the other; I could still do quests here and there, but I'd have to spend more of my time scavenging and trying to survive.

 

[Rotor]

My general issue with questing, and is not restricted to 7d2d, but it's definitely more evident in it, is that on most games it doesn't influence the game world.

 

[Kyoji]

So then, what would make exploration "more" meaningful? Would it take an approach like say No Man's Sky or Elite Dangerous, both games that provide the gamer with countless alien worlds, star systems to explore?

I have mentioned a few things in other threads but to encapsulate it:

• Dynamic Events - Dynamic events would be using the flatspot code to find even terrain around the player to spawn in something such as a downed helicopter or bandit encampment.
• New POI Styles - The new POI style would be more like a part or a small POI (for example how the game places fruit stands in a tile) that can spawn in the wilderness or in designated positions in tiles. This could also be a helicopter and bandit encampment. The idea is that they wouldn't be a quest and would be randomly spawned around the map on RWG generation or randomly placed in sectors in Navezgane.

These two options should have varying degrees of risk and reward but one that is comparable to quests. Either way it encourages players to go out and explore and/or at the very least offers divergence from running from quest to quest. Imagine running to a quest and along the road you see a bandit camp blocking the road with vehicles, barbed wire, etc. You can detour and avoid it or tackle it for some nice rewards. This doesn't try and supplant questing, but offers something to do along the way to break the monotony.

Other options include:

• Remnant POIs - being less about T0 and more T0-5 with higher tier remnant POIs offering more zombies and more loot. In this way it gives remnant POIs some value other than just eye candy as currently there is very little reason to ever go to a remnant POI. You can even have bandit strongholds in some of the remnant POIs. Let's say there are bandit versions of the same POI that can spawn inside the tile.
• Scrap Quests - Outside of generator quests, infestation and some fetch quests that get offered from time to time I don't see a need for them. Just leave the POIs as they are and let people explore and go through them naturally rather than via a bright yellow exclamation icon or marker. For POIs that have hard to find entrances you can make individual adjustments as needed. Every time you check with the trader there "may" be a quest you can do for some additional rewards that reset every 3 days.

While not as ideal as the previous two options it does help to fix some of the linear questing.

At the end of the day the general idea is to promote other forms of gameplay rather than just questing. This is similar to how traders were too powerful and needed some tweaking so everyone didn't just always go down bartering and spam fetch quests. So even if you don't like my ideas I am sure people can think of at leas one thing that may help make the game more random and less linear.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

My general issue with questing, and is not restricted to 7d2d, but it's definitely more evident in it, is that on most games it doesn't influence the game world.

That's an unfortunate fact for the moment and it goes back to people who don't know the first thing about video games insisting developers would be creating content no one will ever see were they to create content that actually affects the game world and its unfolding. It's more of an issue with supposed RPGs, though. True choice and consequence RPGs like those Interplay, Troika and Obsidian once produced are a relative rarity today because those who put up the funds to produce a video game don't want to invest any more money in it than is absolutely necessary and... they flop for the most part in the triple A and double A spaces. Gee, I wonder why? Ergo, why I find myself playing survival games today....

 

[Khissi]

Wow, did none of you see the stream where they were talking about Legendary Weapons? So... who's to say where those may be hidden once we get that update? Or, what may need to be done to get them? Let's hope someone with a bit of evil in their brain works it out, and it takes advantage of all those 'hidden' POIs that I've been finding out in the world. Some are just incredible. Go play.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Wow, did none of you see the stream where they were talking about Legendary Weapons? So... who's to say where those may be hidden once we get that update? Or, what may need to be done to get them? Let's hope someone with a bit of evil in their brain works it out, and it takes advantage of all those 'hidden' POIs that I've been finding out in the world. Some are just incredible. Go play.

The named or "legendary" weapons have already been discussed. Using flat spot code to implement structured, "random" encounters has as well. Did you not see those posts?

 

[Rotor]

Wow, did none of you see the stream where they were talking about Legendary Weapons? So... who's to say where those may be hidden once we get that update? Or, what may need to be done to get them?

So, an AK47 should be just that. Only things that should improve based on skills is aim and reload time. Maybe if you can craft a better barrel , etc based on skills or quality of ores then you can improve length between repairs, or a better shot group etc.

But I digress.

 

[Khissi]

The named or "legendary" weapons have already been discussed. Using flat spot code to implement structured, "random" encounters has as well. Did you not see those posts?

I called myself reading them all... I'm pretty sure I read about the random encounters but I didn't see the named legendary mentioned. Could just be that I missed it. HOWEVER, I still say, those cool POIs could be utilized for far more than trash loot and I've found lots of things I was in need of in those sorts of places. I was absolutely not speaking against random encounters. Seriously... people are out there saying 'there's nothing new to find' sort of things, which I cannot begin to agree with. I was trying to say that I find something new every day and expect that they will be implementing even MORE new... as in Named Legendary stuffs. So, I don't get the argument.