PC Do you hate crafting?

[crazywildfire]

It's almost not worth wasting breath on at this point. Roland is stuck in his dream world, where crafting non endgame gear is amazing, and having an entire tier of gear only lootable, and particularly by a specific spec is not ridiculous.
This will be modded to be changed by people that have a little sense, and we can get back to enjoying the game minus this trash.

If you want to see what people want, look at the top sets of overhaul mods, pretty generally take us in the opposite direction this is headed.

Then please mod away because nothing is wrong with modding the game to ones liking. I'm on the same boat that on the vanilla version of the game I shouldn't be able to craft the best weapons, tools or armor. I look at it like this the things I have to work with are not the best equipment to make such items. Maybe down the road and this is just a maybe and also an if but if they add advance forge and advance workbench then maybe can make higher end then. As of now though I don't have a problem not being able to craft the highest end items and feel I shouldn't be able to with what I have to work with. But everyone has opinions this is just mine.

 

[camelCase]

Because it hasn’t happened yet. Watch for it in upcoming patch notes. In my list of changes I said which ones had happened and which ones were still to come.

I consider myself quite informed and this isn't clear to me. It's not that I've been avoiding receiving that information either. I'm glad to hear it, this probably needs to be communicated by them better.

Honestly now, did you opt in to experimental to help find bugs or to play A18 sooner rather than later?

I played because A17 isn't an enjoyable experience for me. I'm also playing because I'd like to see where the game is headed and offer my opinion. Will I report bugs when I find them? Yes. So a combination of reasons, but not to play it sooner rather than later. I very rarely opt into experimental, and this is the first time since I started with 7D2D some time in 2017 (and following it for some time before then too)... in fact, it might be the first time ever.

I’ve been communicating the reasons and circumstances behind the changes and all I’m getting is grief and conspiracy theories because of it.

Well, I'm sorry that's the case. And I understand why your above post might not have been entirely directed at me personally. I don't intend on being one of those people you're referring to.

 

[aptalley]

Then please mod away because nothing is wrong with modding the game to ones liking. I'm on the same boat that on the vanilla version of the game I shouldn't be able to craft the best weapons, tools or armor. I look at it like this the things I have to work with are not the best equipment to make such items. Maybe down the road and this is just a maybe and also an if but if they add advance forge and advance workbench then maybe can make higher end then. As of now though I don't have a problem not being able to craft the highest end items and feel I shouldn't be able to with what I have to work with. But everyone has opinions this is just mine.

But you are ok with being able to make precision, high tech mods for those pieces of equipment? Making mods so easily craftable has been worse for the looting game longevity than taking away tier 6 craftable base gear will ever be.

On that point as well, having a piece of gear last forever once you get it was terrible for the looting game.

* T6 gear should be craftable to keep crafting relevant (T5 gear on max roll being better than T6 on a crap roll does not make T5 gear crafting relevant)

* Gear should degrade as it is repaired, requiring more looting and/or crafting. Especially since repair kits are ludicrously easy to make now.

* Mods should be commodities, and i feel the A17 system of a consumed schematic was a good balance.

* I do actually like the parts system. I think parts should be required to make guns and high end equipment. They should not just be craftable from iron or steel. Parts should be the common loot, with a complete gun/tool being very very rare.

* I do support extra special unique type stuff being dropped from big bad bosses (perhaps horde night bosses?) but farming it from quests or just loot boxes seems too easy/farmable.

* Randomized stats on gear is a good addition, it does inspire more looting, which does keep the game rolling and interesting.

Not everyone agrees with me clearly, but, this is where I see more people getting the most enjoyment.

I want to be clear, I LOVE LOOTING. Adventuring and scavenging is my favorite thing to do in this game, however, once i find those ready made T6 pieces just laid out there for me in a box, I feel like my game is over. theres little reason to keep looting, and those T5 pieces you crafted are going to all be trader trash shortly after.

 

[Sydious]

You guys know what the messed up thing about this whole discussion is? The most likely outcome will be Lucky Looter getting nerfed into oblivion.

Just for the record I love a great many things they have done with A18. However, I believe they have made a bad mistake with the farming plots and the crafting situation.

 

[Roland]

Hmm, I'm glad that isn't an opinion shared by the devs and the principles of early access. I've found you to be quite rational in your responses on this issue to date, but I really disagree with that sentiment.
If they want a commercial failure then they're free to ignore a significant portion of their playerbase. I also would never partake in an early access game if that was the approach, including future ones from that developer.

What’s wrong with being pleased that people who want to play the game differently can do so via mods? This game was created with modding in mind.

I’m not sure what about this opinion is bad or why you think the devs don’t share it when they’re the ones who have ensured that modding will always be a significant part of their community and their game’s longevity.

I’m not even sure there is a majority that is so hellbent on being able to craft t6 stuff that TFP will suffer commercial failure over it.

In any event it is already decided for A18 at least and so we will see if this ends up being one of those things they walk back for A19 or if they stick to it despite the complaints.

Then we’ll see if it means commercial failure or simply a boost for certain modders.

Hopefully, if it commercially fails it will do so on par with Diablo...

 

[aptalley]

I haven't really seen any evidence of "commercial failure" from a heavily crafting based game not allowing the best stuff to be craft able. Granted I havent played all games out there, but I cannot think of one good example where a successful crafting system was not ending with gear on par with scavenged.

This game became what it is off of years of crafted gear being as good as looted, I don't see where this sudden thought that it is commercially unsuitable has come from.

Feels like some newer staff member at TFP has some sort of influence, and everyone is drinking the cool aid all of a sudden.

 

[Sydious]

What’s wrong with being pleased that people who want to play the game differently can do so via mods? This game was created with modding in mind.
I’m not sure what about this opinion is bad or why you think the devs don’t share it when they’re the ones who have ensured that modding will always be a significant part of their community and their game’s longevity.

I’m not even sure there is a majority that is so hellbent on being able to craft t6 stuff that TFP will suffer commercial failure over it.

In any event it is already decided for A18 at least and so we will see if this ends up being one of those things they walk back for A19 or if they stick to it despite the complaints.

Then we’ll see if it means commercial failure or simply a boost for certain modders.

Hopefully, if it commercially fails it will do so on par with Diablo...

Roland the Modding thing is a mute point. Anyone can just say Mod it how you like it no matter what side of the coin they are on... it's irrelevant. The point is this is a discussion on the core game itself and should be just that.

A good game will support modding but nobody really feels the NEED to do it.

 

[Roland]

Roland the Modding thing is a mute point. Anyone can just say Mod it how you like it no matter what side of the coin they are on... it's irrelevant. The point is this is a discussion on the core game itself and should be just that.A good game will support modding but nobody really feels the NEED to do it.

I agree. I didn’t bring modding into the conversation. I just responded to the guy who did bring it into the conversation. He wanted me to view the fact that the top two overhaul mods allow tier 6 crafting as proof that TFP should follow suit and that they made a mistake in their design. Like some others around here he probably thinks of mods as fixes to design mistakes in the game or picking up the slack. I don’t agree. I see modding as an alternative gameplay experience that is just as valid as the original vision of the developers and that the developers should create the vanilla game according to their own vision and that people can go and play those overhaul mods and get what they like as well. As I said win-win.

Objectively there is nothing wrong in my mind with either design. They are both interesting and I’m pleased that there will be some well supported mods available to try out the opposite direction that TFP is taking. There is always going to be at least one person who feels that a mod NEEDS to be made. This is how they get made and doesn’t necessarily indicate if a game is good or bad.

 

[camelCase]

Roland the Modding thing is a mute point. Anyone can just say Mod it how you like it no matter what side of the coin they are on... it's irrelevant. The point is this is a discussion on the core game itself and should be just that.A good game will support modding but nobody really feels the NEED to do it.

It's also very rare for a mod to do exactly what you want. It's normally more the case of finding a cool mod and using it, rather than finding one completely fit for your purpose. Mods tend to unbalance the game and be unstable with updates. They should enhance the game, not fix it.

I mean, this thread is picking up quite a bit of traction. If you're here and don't think there's a genuine issue then I would question your judgement or motive.

 

[Roland]

I haven't really seen any evidence of "commercial failure" from a heavily crafting based game not allowing the best stuff to be craft able. Granted I havent played all games out there, but I cannot think of one good example where a successful crafting system was not ending with gear on par with scavenged.
This game became what it is off of years of crafted gear being as good as looted, I don't see where this sudden thought that it is commercially unsuitable has come from.

Feels like some newer staff member at TFP has some sort of influence, and everyone is drinking the cool aid all of a sudden.

Rick Huenink was there when the rudimentary idea for this game was scribbled on a napkin while he and his brother Joel were sharing some pie. True story.

Your feelings betray you Padawan.

 

[camelCase]

I haven't really seen any evidence of "commercial failure" from a heavily crafting based game not allowing the best stuff to be craft able.

Gosh, I'm not that melodramatic!! I'm more referring to a games company operating early access in the manner in which the person I replied to used as example.
Doing early access properly does wonders for reputation, and for argument's sake I think TFPs have done a great job so far but I see the last update as a miss-step for sure. Whether it's a communication error as Roland has claimed is yet to be seen. If there's an official source, I'd love to read it.

 

[crazywildfire]

But you are ok with being able to make precision, high tech mods for those pieces of equipment? Making mods so easily craftable has been worse for the looting game longevity than taking away tier 6 craftable base gear will ever be.
On that point as well, having a piece of gear last forever once you get it was terrible for the looting game.

* T6 gear should be craftable to keep crafting relevant (T5 gear on max roll being better than T6 on a crap roll does not make T5 gear crafting relevant)

* Gear should degrade as it is repaired, requiring more looting and/or crafting. Especially since repair kits are ludicrously easy to make now.

* Mods should be commodities, and i feel the A17 system of a consumed schematic was a good balance.

* I do actually like the parts system. I think parts should be required to make guns and high end equipment. They should not just be craftable from iron or steel. Parts should be the common loot, with a complete gun/tool being very very rare.

* I do support extra special unique type stuff being dropped from big bad bosses (perhaps horde night bosses?) but farming it from quests or just loot boxes seems too easy/farmable.

* Randomized stats on gear is a good addition, it does inspire more looting, which does keep the game rolling and interesting.

Not everyone agrees with me clearly, but, this is where I see more people getting the most enjoyment.

I want to be clear, I LOVE LOOTING. Adventuring and scavenging is my favorite thing to do in this game, however, once i find those ready made T6 pieces just laid out there for me in a box, I feel like my game is over. theres little reason to keep looting, and those T5 pieces you crafted are going to all be trader trash shortly after.

Never said I was ok with making those. I also think some of the mods should be loot only and not craftable. Some of them make sense to craft but others not so much. Also as of now think it is to easy to loot T6 items to early in game. Didnt even make it to day 14 and already had found T6. This to me makes it unnecessary to even spend the materials or the points or time into crafting T5. It isn't like you need T6 items for end game. You can survive as long as you want with T4 and T5 items with the right points to give the bonus for extra % on damage and head shots and such. As of right now T5 and T6 items are just to easy to find. If this % of finding them gets nerfed then being able to craft T5 will fill more rewarding.

If it gets changed to craft T6 then so be it. Just my personal opinion that I don't think I should be able to and sure many don't. If they change will still have fun though but guess because I and others like it is now we have no sense and don't have fun playing though at least based on how you said it.

 

[Roland]

It's also very rare for a mod to do exactly what you want. It's normally more the case of finding a cool mod and using it, rather than finding one completely fit for your purpose. Mods tend to unbalance the game and be unstable with updates. They should enhance the game, not fix it.
I mean, this thread is picking up quite a bit of traction. If you're here and don't think there's a genuine issue then I would question your judgement or motive.

What response have I given that makes you think this isn’t a genuine issue? Because I’m not emotionally invested in this issue like some of you? I’m interested in this design change. I love seeing how the game changes and what happens. I’m sure there will be unintended consequences for what they do and I’m stoked to see what emerges. I read Wizard’s First Rule....

I think a loot only t6 design is good. If things don’t pan out and both looting and crafting suffers from it and they revert it to the way it was I won’t be disappointed. Unlike some here I think both designs have merit and from reading comments I see about as much support for the change as I see against it.

So if things revert I hope some savvy modder feels the NEED to make t6 noncraftable again so we have play options going forward.

 

[quyxkh]

In reality, those players could ignore efficiency and then be free to play however they wanted and TFP wasn’t forcing them into one thing or another.

And in fact the gamestage mechanic means (a) you don't suffer for the "inefficiency", if there's a less "efficient" playstyle you enjoy more, ho hey, hey ho! You get more time to enjoy it, and (b) unless you're working at smurfing as assiduously as the power-levelers work at leveling, the game's not going to just let you sit on your ass, your game stage is going to creep up on you.

I wonder whether the limits shouldn't be set so that your gamestage cap is terrifying, it might take forever to get there if you play down near scavenger and work real hard at never getting past level 10 or something until you've looted everything, but the thing I've noticed is, a lot of the streamers and youtubers are constantly at their gamestage cap.

Haha, I can just see it: sacrificing a team member to the zeds to protect the tribe.

God, if that hit YouTube can you _imagine_ the reaction?

Maybe this wasn't such a good idea.

 

[guardianangelmp]

What response have I given that makes you think this isn’t a genuine issue? Because I’m not emotionally invested in this issue like some of you? I’m interested in this design change. I love seeing how the game changes and what happens. I’m sure there will be unintended consequences for what they do and I’m stoked to see what emerges. I read Wizard’s First Rule....
I think a loot only t6 design is good. If things don’t pan out and both looting and crafting suffers from it and they revert it to the way it was I won’t be disappointed. Unlike some here I think both designs have merit and from reading comments I see about as much support for the change as I see against it.

So if things revert I hope some savvy modder feels the NEED to make t6 noncraftable again so we have play options going forward.

It doesn't seem like you think it's a genuine issue because all points that are brought up against what you support are shot down without a valid argument/reason. You also seem to be emotionally invested in the conversation on your opinion because a lot of your comments go out to make the people who have an opinion opposing to yours as unhinged individuals devoid of reason, as well as many comments sounding glib/tongue and cheek .

Not being able to craft t6 items is not the issue, it is one of the symptoms of the actual problem.

The problem is one area of the game is effectively useless at the moment. Right now, there is no way that crafting weapons/tools is a viable way to progress in the game....there just isn't. Regardless of having lucky looter or not (again, not the issue in this conversation, but just adds fuel to the fire) you will, a significant majority of the time, loot higher tier gear before you are able to craft it.

This, being able to get everything you need from looting, effectively negates any benefit to crafting. The same can be said of farming too. With as many barriers as there is to starting farming it is no longer necessary and more of a supplement for food supply than anything else. Canned food is readily available and looted frequently, free of food poisoning risk, and doesn't require any point investment to obtain. I'm getting a little off point (from gear/weapon/tool crafting) but the idea still applies. The need and usefulness of non-looting methods of obtaining items is slowly being eroded.

This is why, in my first comment, I compare the trajectory that 7dtd is on right now (incentivizing looting, disincentivising crafting) as to making a PvE fortenite game with zombies.

Also, this is an experimental build and a game in alpha and that is exactly the reason people should bring up their issues with changes right now. We don't know what TFP are planning and, no offence to the mods of the forums, I would be more satisfied with having an official TFP representative lay out the vision than hearing it from someone who heard something from someone else (but maybe I don't know, maybe the mods have a confirmed direct line to the devs and their vision).

And, often, the only way to have your concerns recognized is to get over the top because most of the time when you pose a logical, concise argument/feed back it is lost to the irrational chatter.

I don't need everything equal, I would be fine with having the highest tier items be loot only (as long as they are super rare and not just random drops from random places, can be random drops from specific difficult places), but I do need all aspects of the game to be viable and not overshadowed by other aspects of the game. The base game needs to have more choices for gameplay, not less.....we need more player agency, not less.

 

[M.C.]

I think a loot only t6 design is good. If things don’t pan out and both looting and crafting suffers from it and they revert it to the way it was I won’t be disappointed.

I think it's a really bad design. It means that the endgame -- specifically, the hunt for rare, powerful weapons and armor -- will be almost completely devoid of crafting. Getting a Q6 item in a slot means you never have to worry about crafting another item for that slot.

 

[Roland]

[No message]

 

[Roland]

I think it's a really bad design. It means that the endgame -- specifically, the hunt for rare, powerful weapons and armor -- will be almost completely devoid of crafting. Getting a Q6 item in a slot means you never have to worry about crafting another item for that slot.

How many Q6 items would you be able to craft? I'm wondering what the true impact on crafting would be. How many different weapons and tools and armor did you perk into the formerly 5th level which opened purple crafting?

My opinion to TFP last Thursday was that since they opened it up in b149 they should just leave it open since the impact would be very small. Nobody would be crafting a wide range of purple items-- only what they would've specifically perked into.

But if that is true then it also swings the other way. By changing it back, the impact on crafting as a whole is not really that great because we are only talking about a few items out of the 100s that you can still craft and that still contribute to seeing the game as a crafting game.

 

[wrathofdog]

Tier 6 gear being loot-only is... ok imo, but if I were designing the game, I'd go with craftable Tier 6 stuff + quality degradation on repair (random, and with a perk to make it less frequent), and ultra-rare legendaries that can only be looted. I'd also bring back the ability to merge items at a workbench to build a higher quality item, because I loved that.

 

[Roland]

Tier 6 gear being loot-only is... ok imo, but if I were designing the game, I'd go with craftable Tier 6 stuff + quality degradation on repair (random, and with a perk to make it less frequent), and ultra-rare legendaries that can only be looted. I'd also bring back the ability to merge items at a workbench to build a higher quality item, because I loved that.

Someone offered a concise and logical post that seemed to gain some traction when Madmole read it. The argument was that when repairing an item it wouldn't degrade to a lower quality, instead it would never refill its "uses left" bar to the top and slowly the bar would reduce until it finally could not be repaired for any durability. Madmole responded that he liked that idea but would want the trader to be able to fix it back up to full use for a fee. That was the only suggestion that he seemed to respond to in a positive way regarding degradation.