PC Do you hate crafting?

How many Q6 items would you be able to craft? I'm wondering what the true impact on crafting would be.
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That's easy to answer: 100% of the tools, armor pieces and weapons I am using for my build. Let's say I am not interested in crafting T1 gear because, well, it's T1. That still leaves me with two potential types of crafted gear (T2 and T3) per slot.

How many slots do I need to worry about? Let's see... 5 armor pieces, 4 tools (pick, axe, shovel, wrench), 2 power tools (augur and chainsaw), and my main weapon. That's 12 slots and 24 potential Q6 items I'd want to craft. I don't think you can call it negligible.

How many different weapons and tools and armor did you perk into the formerly 5th level which opened purple crafting?
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Four perks. Main weapon, armor, tools, wrench.

My opinion to TFP last Thursday was that since they opened it up in b149 they should just leave it open since the impact would be very small. Nobody would be crafting a wide range of purple items-- only what they would've specifically perked into.
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Like I said in the very beginning, every single player will be crafting Q6 of every single piece of gear they are using.

But if that is true then it also swings the other way. By changing it back, the impact on crafting as a whole is not really that great because we are only talking about a few items out of the 100s that you can still craft and that still contribute to seeing the game as a crafting game.
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I suspect you are looking at it from a wrong angle. None of us give a rat's ass about whether we can "see the game as a crafting game". "Crafting game" is just a label. What's important is whether crafting remains part of the game from the start until the very end. Specifically, whether crafting remains part of the RPG aspect of 7D2D. In other words, whether crafting is useful for increasing the power level of our characters.

Before this change, it was definitely part of it because you could craft the best gear in the game.

After this change, it is no longer part of it because looting yields strictly more powerful gear.

 
The argument was that when repairing an item it wouldn't degrade to a lower quality, instead it would never refill its "uses left" bar to the top and slowly the bar would reduce until it finally could not be repaired for any durability. Madmole responded that he liked that idea but would want the trader to be able to fix it back up to full use for a fee.
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Without having read the original post, I'm not a fan of the idea, personally. Having to repair your pistol with ever-increasing frequency (with corresponding ever-increasing chance of it breaking when you need it most), and having to trek across the map to get it refurbished at a trader all sounds tedious. I'd end up with a junk box full of used-up stuff waiting for my next trip to the trader... . And I feel like it wouldn't do anything to solve the fundamental question, which is that, once you find a tier 6 pistol, you never care about any pistol you find ever again, ergo looting gets less exciting the longer you play.

The variable stats on items helps a lot. I think legendary items would be a cool addition, too. Degrading loot and being able to merge it to boost the quality level was my favorite innovation so far, though. I spent many nights in my cabin in A16 disassembling and reassembling guns; it felt very survivory.

 
That's easy to answer: 100% of the tools, armor pieces and weapons I am using for my build. Let's say I am not interested in crafting T1 gear because, well, it's T1. That still leaves me with two potential types of crafted gear (T2 and T3) per slot.
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In theory, yes.... in practice (at least in my experience) no. After 25 days, I've only found enough parts to craft 1 steel tool (about half way to a second) and 1 steel armor piece (just barely started on a second). At that rate, I'll probably never get to crafting a full set of armor, unless I start getting much luckier finding parts or stuff to scrap.

While I do wish we could still craft T6, because I like building toward it.... I also do think that Roland is correct in that in the end, the impact to not being able to is pretty limited.

 
Here what I think, and of course, pick it apart and fight about it if you guys wish, reading the vitriol tossed back and forth on here turns my stomach to be honest.

I support BOTH crafting and looting Q6, you need the perks to make Q6, and maybe Q6 only shows up in loot extremely rarely (looters can take days scouring a town and possibly find one, or spec up to what they want and make it)

I support random stats on items both crafted and not

I support Degradation of items if Q6 becomes craft-able, to balance out having "top tier" items (this would affect looters and crafters equally)

If Q7/Legendaries become a thing, I support them NOT being craft-able and only via looting(luck based)/shooting(bosses)/questing(T5 or maybe T6 if they want to add a new tier, I would also support quests not giving a guaranteed legendary but having it be chance based)

Parts for items should stay, that way we can break down weaker (lower Q) ones and assemble Q4-6's (or Q4-5s if not Q6s)

Lowering the chance for Q3+ I agree with, as long as Q1-2 gets a boost so we can gather parts

Ending note: I love the game as it is now. would I change some things? oh yeah. Would it make the game better? for me, maybe.

Stop picking fights guys, Roland has been polite(at least as polite as he can be being attacked for sharing info he got direct from the Game makers) he doesn't make the decisions, all he can do is hear what you have to say, and tell TFP what everyone thinks, and if every idea is just "you guys F***** up fix it now rah rah rah" he'll just tune you out and listen to other issues you may not care about...his points are just as valid as yours.

but what would I know?

 
In theory, yes.... in practice (at least in my experience) no. After 25 days, I've only found enough parts to craft 1 steel tool (about half way to a second) and 1 steel armor piece (just barely started on a second). At that rate, I'll probably never get to crafting a full set of armor, unless I start getting much luckier finding parts or stuff to scrap.
While I do wish we could still craft T6, because I like building toward it.... I also do think that Roland is correct in that in the end, the impact to not being able to is pretty limited.
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Day 24. I've crafted 3 steel tools so far and have enough parts for two more. I have enough parts for two steel armor pieces (but still no schematics -- go figure). I have 2 full stacks of military armor parts, and I am not even using light armor. All of this at 100% loot and without any points in Lucky Looter. So... yeah. I think it's probably safe to say the impact will be substantial.

 
They didn’t listen to some outside minority. They listened to the general feedback that looting was too good and crafting too pointless. The dev who made the changes thought it was supposed to include re-allowing t6 crafting. Two days later one of the owners asked why the t6 crafting was re-allowed and a discussion ensued between all the devs that lasted a day and a-half. The decision came down on the side of sticking to what they wanted to do with A18 in the first place. T1-5 craftable. T6 loot and quest rewards.
Changes they did and do intend to make to help crafting:

1) change specific weapon parts to general weapon’s group parts so that finding parts that work for what you want to craft is easier.

2) change crafted item stats to a random range so players have a chance to craft the best instead of guaranteed midrange.

3) lower percent chance of finding q3-5 items in loot boxes and trader stores so that most found gear is low level stuff good for parts for crafting and the player is more likely to craft a higher level item than has been found.

4) make t6 items ultra rare in loot and trader stores and as top level quest rewards.

5) Oh yeah....changed farming from tilling to crafting.... ;)

Looting is still strong because of parts and schematics and perk books that can be found as well as the chance for a really lucky find.

That is the plan and it should be fully implemented by stable or 18.1 for sure. Should be interesting to witness it all.
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Ugh. I feel for that developer. And that now makes sense as to why the “emergency” patch come out to roll back T6 crafting.

I’m satisfied with this and hope that it was an honest mistake and he/she didn’t get scolded too badly (as a dev manager, these kinds of situatio’s suck for everyone).

My only major gripe was that it made crafting feel inferior. I also felt the loot tables were ramped up significantly in A18 which also contributed to the feeling.

Balancing loot so higher tiers drop less often is fine with me (though I predict several threads with the “looter nerf” firestorm when the loot nerf drops). If my crafted item doesn’t get immediately replaced with something better then I feel it was at least work the time, perk points, and materials to craft it.

 
Honestly? I frigging HATE the new craft times on most things, they just take way to damned long for the most part. Making gun ammo is especially atrocious in terms of time needed. IMO 7.62 mm/magnum needs to have its gunpowder cost reduced by 1 (to 2 like shotgun shells) and also have a stack size simmlar to 9mm ammo. for the AP rounds make it take 3 gunpowder for 7.62mm/magnum. Its also very silly for the hollow point rounds to cost 2 bullet tips when hollow points typically have LESS lead as the bullet tip is hollow inside. Its already balanced imo in the fact its locked behind a book perk.

 
Day 24. I've crafted 3 steel tools so far and have enough parts for two more. I have enough parts for two steel armor pieces (but still no schematics -- go figure). I have 2 full stacks of military armor parts, and I am not even using light armor. All of this at 100% loot and without any points in Lucky Looter. So... yeah. I think it's probably safe to say the impact will be substantial.
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Well, then either you've been lucky or I've been unlucky. I guess time will tell.

 
Someone offered a concise and logical post that seemed to gain some traction when Madmole read it. The argument was that when repairing an item it wouldn't degrade to a lower quality, instead it would never refill its "uses left" bar to the top and slowly the bar would reduce until it finally could not be repaired for any durability. Madmole responded that he liked that idea but would want the trader to be able to fix it back up to full use for a fee. That was the only suggestion that he seemed to respond to in a positive way regarding degradation.
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I'd not mind this, I think it makes some sense. Though I'd hope crafting perks could give something here (maybe give a bit extra durability when you repair or the ability to repair it yourself without having to visit the trader--though I'm guessing that would be against the "get out of the house" mantra).

You're right currently. They haven't nerfed the loot lists yet. But the time will come where your crafting will be ahead of the looting curve. The loot quality nerf and the trader quality nerf is coming. You can prepare now by throwing away/scrapping anything you find that is better than orange quality before around day 20 or so (Okay you can keep one thing and pretend you got lucky). I'm not exactly sure how much they will tune it.
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Hey Roland. I appreciate the info you have given. I'm sorry if anything I've said came off as personally insulting; that's never my intention.

I actually had a bug (which I haven't reported since I don't know if it was a fluke or not) where I had a save start killing me on login and not drop a backpack. SO...decided to start a new playthrough.

I'm trying a RWG 8k with an Int/Str build (stun baton / shotgun). I'm going to self impose the rules above to see how I like it (my initial assumption is that the balance will feel a lot better and crafting will feel better balanced). I can't simulate the trader stuff as well, but won't buy anything higher than Q2 before my day 21 horde (not like I have a lot of money to do so anyway).

 
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My suggestion for T6 crafting would be to give it back in the next update for good, and later on add some extra RNG to it.

Have a small (4-10%?) chance for any gear crafting to fail and produce 1 tier below the players current ability.

Have a very small chance (1%?) for the craft to go great and produce a tier higher than the players current ability.

Have an extremely small chance (0.1%?) for a T6 craft to go great and produce a T7 legendary.

To be clear, i hate the idea of adding rng to crafting, but this seems like a decent compromise between what the devs want and what the players want. Everyone will still need to acquire parts and schematics/books, and having that extremely small chance to craft T7 would give crafters a reason to keep crafting long after they have T6 gear, in balance with looters trying to loot T7 gear (when its added).

 
https://gofile.io/?c=k0Gz3T

Modlets for:

t6 crafting for a18.152

RNG removal from crafting all together

Have fun

For those that want to craft Tier 6 items again:

In the progression.xml file you will find perks. Here is the javelin master perk as an example (only leaving the pertinent line in):

<perk name="perkJavelinMaster" parent="skillPerceptionCombat"...

.

.

.

<passive_effect name="CraftingTier" operation="base_add" level="1,2,3,4,5" value="1,2,3,4,4" tags="perkJavelinMaster"/>

.

.

.

</perk>

You will notice 'value' has values of 1,2,3,4,4. Change the last 4 to a 5:

<passive_effect name="CraftingTier" operation="base_add" level="1,2,3,4,5" value="1,2,3,4,5" tags="perkJavelinMaster"/>

You will now be able to craft T6 javelins once you reach level 5 of the perk. This works for every perk.

Edit:Mods please let me know if we're not supposed to post .xml edits.

 
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You're right, when A19 comes out, I'll probably play for about 2 weeks, and then move on to better games. Its the same cycle every update.
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You could just... you know... do that now. No need to wait for 19.

 
I for one am enjoying the journey.
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I sorta am too, but I wish the devs would decide on something and friggin stick with it, so they can work on adding content and such. Every alpha for the last few years has been mostly a skill overhaul, it needs to stop. I still think they need to go back to learn by doing for weapons, armor, and atlethics but leave crafting as perks. Like a16 had it at skill levels 0,20,40,60 and then 80 you could get lv 1-5 of the weapon, or mining tools, or armor perks which are basically the ones in a17/18 that are stat locked. I for one really bloody hate how weapons are locked to stats for their perks, Agility for example has pistol and magnum which I do like, but the stats tree itself has literally nothing i'd ever both leveling, so I am stuck using gimped pistol if I choose to use it. Which I still do, because lets face it 9mm ammo is common as hell, and I always have stacks of it from looting, a t4+ pistol modded can have about 50+ base damage even on warrior thats 2-3 headshots to kill a zombie.

 
You could just... you know... do that now. No need to wait for 19.
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I kinda did, I started to play other games for now, I am waiting for the darkness falls mod to come out, as its the best version of the game by far, its been out for 17.4 for a while and I played more time in that mod than I have vanilla a17. Improves upon what a17.4 does right, and gets rid of the stats and adds a learn by doing system, (for weapons/mining tools etc stuff that makes sense) crafting is just perk locked. A class system which each class gets special perks, and some special items only they can craft when you master the class. Classes can be earned by scrapping schematics and +to skill books you don't need like a +1 to blunt weapons skill book, though the generic skill point book is one you wanna use, as it grants a perk point like leveling up does. Eventually you'll be able to get all the classes, but choosing different starting classes (you can choose 2 in single player 1 in MP), can offer a different experence at the start.

 
Have fun
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Thank you for the work, I appreciate it.

For now I won't change it. I will try out whatever balance TFP comes up with, before I will test a modded version. I probably will also ramp up the item parts needed for q6 items then, so I will be able to make a decent amount of q5 items if needed, but won't be able to outcraft q6 easily.

The main reason is that I want to see both possibilities, to not just trust my instincts, but to see if I actually like that more.

In addition Roland put a lot of time into this thread, so it's only fair, if we'll give TFPs version a shot. Even though he didn't react on many arguments we made, but I'm well aware he has other things to do. I mean we are very lucky to even have him (and others from the team) directly communicating and discussing topics with us. Many other companies (looking at you Nintendo!) don't even have official forums or limit their participation to announcements (looking at Blizzards non english forums).

I'll just hope next time that topic comes out, it isn't perceived as "suddenly" again. ;)

 
You couldn’t craft t6 tools and weapons from the moment A18 came out. Where was this outrage the last two weeks? We got it back for 4 days and NOW we can’t live without it?
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Questionable design choices are evergreen.

I definitely tend towards looting well ahead of crafting, but this one is a definite head-scratcher to me. All the sexy books, schematics, and mods are already enough put the looting lifestyle at the top of the pile.

Still not going to female dog about A18 overall, however, as I find it matches my favorite prior alpha (A16), and is a significant step above A17.

 
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