PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[JaxTeller718]

You seem fixated on the straw man percentage argument, when all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who don't want to have to look at another screen to see if they're hungry or not. It's not rocket science, or even rock science.
Video games have limitations, huds are necessary to combat some of those limitations.

It is NOT a party unless we invite the straw man, Gup you know this.

That said, I have watched many streamers, seen many mods. ALL have the hud back on screen. It would seem the absence of food water etc is a very unpopular decision. Bringing back an XP bar no one asked for seems a bit........silly? Especially when just about everyone seems to want a HUD back that is of actual use.

I know when I am thirsty and hungry. Normally I do not orgasm in pain when I am one of those things. Maybe sometimes I need reminded to eat when I am busy. But never once did i have to consult my notepad to check if I needed a burger or a beer.

 

[CptLaserPants]

The current design allows for missed information due to not paying attention which is a completely consistent simulation of a survivor in a stressful and intense environment.
The current design gives "signs of hunger" rather than to the percentage knowledge of 74% vs 73% vs 72% fullness

Adding the food bar would virtually remove any player mistakes in regards to hunger. It would be almost impossible to accidentally face the survival situation of starvation due to player error.

The food bar with its percentages encourages and facilitates gamey behavior for things like getting your wellness up which is unnatural behavior that has nothing to do with how you feel hunger or fullness in real life.

So beyond clutter there are some valid design reasons to do periodic notifications and sound effects rather than always on percentage point by percentage point perfect knowledge.

I get that lots of other games include a food bar. I'm glad TFP made a different choice and I hope they continue to do things that will allow players to make mistakes and have to live with the consequences of those mistakes.

By "current design" I'm referring more to the health and stamina bars along with the way that other information is displayed currently. If clutter were legitimately an issue then many other things right now would be bigger culprits. But since other things are presented in the way they are it is unjustified to use that specific reason to not include hunger and thirst. Of course I know you feel that it's all clutter, just pointing out that others can't say hunger and thirst is clutter if they're ok with all the other stuff.

Starvation was never an issue for me to begin with, and I only just recently started using a HUD mod. In all my play time I've only lost maybe one or two points of wellness from food or water deficiency, that threat was never an issue to begin with because as you say, awareness isn't difficult. For me it's strictly an issue of convenience. You can argue that the mechanic as a whole is kinda gamey, but hiding the information in a menu and making it more annoying to check doesn't fix that.

And I don't care about having exact percentages actually, they could just be bars with an icon for all I care, and health and stamina could be the same. It's not the 72% to 73% that I care about, it's the 72% to 28%, and I'd just rather not have to search through a menu to obtain that simple information.

 

[Aurelius]

I know when I am thirsty and hungry. Normally I do not orgasm in pain when I am one of those things.

LOL!

@Roland -

I don't care how much exp I am gaining, except as a casual interest in my progression.

I do care what my current, up to the second, status is when it involves life or death.

Guppy pretty much took the words right out of my mouth - removing the hud was a bad game play design on TFP's part.

-A

 

[Roland]

You seem fixated on the straw man percentage argument, when all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who don't want to have to look at another screen to see if they're hungry or not. It's not rocket science, or even rock science.
Video games have limitations, huds are necessary to combat some of those limitations.

All I'm seeing are a bunch of people who think they have to look at another screen to see if they are hungry or not when in reality they don't. If TFP removed the bars from the character screen no one would be lost in hunger any more than anyone got lost in the terrain when the minimap was removed. Do people have to constantly switch to the map screen to figure things out? No. There was a period of adaptation but soon people got used to getting their bearings by using the first person view of the world instead of the top down arrow orientation view. <shrug> Maybe there ARE still people constantly switching to the map screen....

You can instantly know how hungry you are by eating. There is zero downside to it. If you are full then you won't be able to eat. If you are hungry in any degree then you can and take note of the new level of fullness. If you don't want to find out by eating then wait for the next notification.

I talk about percentages only to make the point that we don't really need to know fullness with the granularity of a food bar and to answer those who seem concerned or think that 30% means your character is hungry in any meaningful sense (it does not). Plus its presence adds gamey behavior and holds the player's hand too much so they never have to face the situation of possibly starving thanks to constant reminder of exactly where they are on the spectrum.

 

[Roland]

... I'd just rather not have to search through a menu to obtain that simple information.

Then stop searching through menus and eat something. You'll have your info. Easy Peasy

 

[Roland]

LOL!
@Roland -

I don't care how much exp I am gaining, except as a casual interest in my progression.

I do care what my current, up to the second, status is when it involves life or death.

Guppy pretty much took the words right out of my mouth - removing the hud was a bad game play design on TFP's part.

-A

I don't want the xp bar either. And I would say that from about 10% to 100% life or death is not involved. 0% for about 15 minutes yes. But guess what? Way before that point you have your information on the hud.

 

[Guppycur]

All I'm seeing are a bunch of people who think they have to look at another screen to see if they are hungry or not when in reality they don't. If TFP removed the bars from the character screen no one would be lost in hunger any more than anyone got lost in the terrain when the minimap was removed. Do people have to constantly switch to the map screen to figure things out? No. There was a period of adaptation but soon people got used to getting their bearings by using the first person view of the world instead of the top down arrow orientation view. <shrug> Maybe there ARE still people constantly switching to the map screen....
You can instantly know how hungry you are by eating. There is zero downside to it. If you are full then you won't be able to eat. If you are hungry in any degree then you can and take note of the new level of fullness. If you don't want to find out by eating then wait for the next notification.

I talk about percentages only to make the point that we don't really need to know fullness with the granularity of a food bar and to answer those who seem concerned or think that 30% means your character is hungry in any meaningful sense (it does not). Plus its presence adds gamey behavior and holds the player's hand too much so they never have to face the situation of possibly starving thanks to constant reminder of exactly where they are on the spectrum.

Zero downside in eating to determine whether or not you're hungy?

Let me list the ways...

1 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded

2 - I lose that food, which could be more useful when I'm REALLY hungry

3 - Since the speed hunger increase/decreases based on activity, it's still not a good barometer

4 - So knowing I have just a little bit of blue left to level up is better?

5 - Hunger isn't always just about maxing stats, in this game it's a LIFE OR DEATH FACTOR. Unlike, well, pretty much everything else on the screen.

6 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

At this point I /know/ you're trolling, so I'll let others take the bait. =)

- - - Updated - - -

I don't want the xp bar either. And I would say that from about 10% to 100% life or death is not involved. 0% for about 15 minutes yes. But guess what? Way before that point you have your information on the hud.

...except to say that under the right circumstances, 10% to 0% can happen pretty damn quickly, and you end up not even being able to PLAN around eating... maybe that's it? You're not a planner? Well, I am, and apparently so are a good deal many other people... now I won't sit here and say that "we need it because we're paying customers and it's what we want", but I will say it's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded NOT to cater to the wishes of the masses...

Most popular mod? Hud mods. Why? Because not having the info is ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

 

[Horst]

You seem fixated on the straw man percentage argument, when all I'm seeing is a bunch of people who don't want to have to look at another screen to see if they're hungry or not. It's not rocket science, or even rock science.
Video games have limitations, huds are necessary to combat some of those limitations.

Depends on how its done. The lack of an information display could be used as information in itself - ie. The current two bars: If my stamina is at 100% I would not need to see a bar, and if my health is at 100% no need for it either. So by not seeing something in that corner I just know that its at 100%.

If you go one step further I would say 80% is still not really relevant info and could still be not shown - I know when I run, and I know when I get hit - so if I run/get hit, see nothing in the corner I know its not 100, and I would still know its not below 80%.

Its not necessary for all information to be displayed all of the time, but a mix that just shows relevant info might be. No need for Stamina, Health, Hunger, Thirst and temperature bars all at once; no need to show hunger and thirst above ie 50% or stamina above ie 80% but would be nice to have those bars fade in once they become relevant to me...

 

[Guppycur]

I would find stats that fade in and out distracting.

Hell, the game could do proper multi monitor support and I'd be fine with the hud on a 2nd monitor. =)

 

[JaxTeller718]

All I'm seeing are a bunch of people who think they have to look at another screen to see if they are hungry or not when in reality they don't. If TFP removed the bars from the character screen no one would be lost in hunger any more than anyone got lost in the terrain when the minimap was removed. Do people have to constantly switch to the map screen to figure things out? No. There was a period of adaptation but soon people got used to getting their bearings by using the first person view of the world instead of the top down arrow orientation view. <shrug> Maybe there ARE still people constantly switching to the map screen....
You can instantly know how hungry you are by eating. There is zero downside to it. If you are full then you won't be able to eat. If you are hungry in any degree then you can and take note of the new level of fullness. If you don't want to find out by eating then wait for the next notification.

I talk about percentages only to make the point that we don't really need to know fullness with the granularity of a food bar and to answer those who seem concerned or think that 30% means your character is hungry in any meaningful sense (it does not). Plus its presence adds gamey behavior and holds the player's hand too much so they never have to face the situation of possibly starving thanks to constant reminder of exactly where they are on the spectrum.

But unlike the map change we are 2 Alphas in to this Hud change and people are still pretty adamant about not liking it much. Maybe if it wasn't standard to see this info in every other survival game. Same can be said for Stamina and Health. No one needs it and if you want just look into the menu to see it. But for the most part many seem to agree having the info there is better than not.

I'm not saying I disagree with it being gone as a mod. It is an interesting way to play, but for standard and to appeal to the almighty general gamer which Pimps try VERY hard to do having it there seems to be the way to happiness.

Do I want it back? Nope. I know how to mod and have zero issues doing it. I always put it back. But others most likely dont and wont. Most likely the majority of the people who like not having a hud are pretty decent at modding already anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

Zero downside in eating to determine whether or not you're hungy?
Let me list the ways...

1 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded

2 - I lose that food, which could be more useful when I'm REALLY hungry

3 - Since the speed hunger increase/decreases based on activity, it's still not a good barometer

4 - So knowing I have just a little bit of blue left to level up is better?

5 - Hunger isn't always just about maxing stats, in this game it's a LIFE OR DEATH FACTOR. Unlike, well, pretty much everything else on the screen.

6 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

At this point I /know/ you're trolling, so I'll let others take the bait. =)

- - - Updated - - -

...except to say that under the right circumstances, 10% to 0% can happen pretty damn quickly, and you end up not even being able to PLAN around eating... maybe that's it? You're not a planner? Well, I am, and apparently so are a good deal many other people... now I won't sit here and say that "we need it because we're paying customers and it's what we want", but I will say it's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded NOT to cater to the wishes of the masses...

Most popular mod? Hud mods. Why? Because not having the info is ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

There are a LOT of planners. I am reminded of this every day when our resident mathematician points out ALL the faults in my mods food program lol

 

[Aurelius]

I don't want the xp bar either. And I would say that from about 10% to 100% life or death is not involved. 0% for about 15 minutes yes. But guess what? Way before that point you have your information on the hud.

Well, perhaps with the settings you play on - not so with mine. I've been in similar situations to RD's bedrock-overheating scenario, and being able to make a GO/NO-GO decision without having to stop what you are doing and pull up the menu is pretty important.

You are ok with the current HUD, and some other people are too. As a player and someone with (some) UI design experience, I think it's a sub-optimal design choice.

-A

 

[JaxTeller718]

Well, perhaps with the settings you play on - not so with mine. I've been in similar situations to RD's bedrock-overheating scenario, and being able to make a GO/NO-GO decision without having to stop what you are doing and pull up the menu is pretty important.
You are ok with the current HUD, and some other people are too. As a player and someone with (some) UI design experience, I think it's a sub-optimal design choice.

-A

I died to hunger on a horde night while messing with experimental. Why? Because I was KILLING ZOMBIES and didn't have time to pay attention to my belly trying to give birth to a grown man. So dead I was, amidst trying to shoot cops and ferals. If I had the bar I'd have been able to look over and say "♥♥♥♥ time to eat" and hit the stew on my bar. Without the info I would have had to stop looking at my current life or death situation. Being that it was a Burnt biome I dehydrated even quicker.

We can get into a realism argument. Hows this for realism. The game makes you eat so friggin much that no way in hell if I woke up and ate at 3pm would I drop dead at 2am while fighting zombies in "real life". If you want us to play realistically when it comes to stats maybe I shouldn't have to eat the whole damn cow to live through the night. Then MAYBE I wouldn't need the bar on my screen to begin with.

 

[Horst]

I would find stats that fade in and out distracting.
Hell, the game could do proper multi monitor support and I'd be fine with the hud on a 2nd monitor. =)

If they fade out after 2-3 secs I agree, but I think if they become visible/less opaque with their relevancy and stayed until you solve the problem there is no real distraction. Showing hunger and thirst when they are below 50% would probably mean these bars come one once, maybe twice a day, remind you of eating and go away after you did.

A health bar that is only visible when its below 80% would only become visible in action - and only disappear the instance you take action/take a bandage,etc..

Stamina may make sense to only fade out at 100% so it only becomes visible by your action. I dont think players would really get distracted by a display they directly cause to appear or disapear by pushing a button in the long run...

 

[JaxTeller718]

If they fade out after 2-3 secs I agree, but I think if they become visible/less opaque with their relevancy and stayed until you solve the problem there is no real distraction. Showing hunger and thirst when they are below 50% would probably mean these bars come one once, maybe twice a day, remind you of eating and go away after you did.
A health bar that is only visible when its below 80% would only become visible in action - and only disappear the instance you take action/take a bandage,etc..

Stamina may make sense to only fade out at 100% so it only becomes visible by your action. I dont think players would really get distracted by a display they directly cause to appear or disapear by pushing a button in the long run...

It's bad enough we have a chat box that can't seem to stay up longer than Grandpa at a cathouse. Knowing how things seem to work out a fading hunger bar would be a disaster in execution.

 

[CptLaserPants]

Then stop searching through menus and eat something. You'll have your info. Easy Peasy

Come on man, now you're just trolling me. You trying to tell me it's easier to run all the way to my fridge and eat something, that I might not even need to eat, than it is to hit B? Which I'm arguing is already unnecessarily inconvenient for it's purpose and solution.

 

[Horst]

It's bad enough we have a chat box that can't seem to stay up longer than Grandpa at a cathouse. Knowing how things seem to work out a fading hunger bar would be a disaster in execution.

Sry, I dont mean fading out with a timer like the chat...better way to put it would be only visible if its between 0 and ie. 50%

 

[JaxTeller718]

Sry, I dont mean fading out with a timer like the chat...better way to put it would be only visible if its between 0 and ie. 50%

Ah ok. Isn't that how it is now? I'm not sure of it though. If its not then it at the very least should be. I know we do get indicators at intervals. But honestly I never notice them because they seem to be up and gone before you know it. Shows you how ineffective it all is.

 

[Tin]

A hunger or Thirst bar I don't need them on all the time. Just pop up at 25% and stay on for anything below that. More times than not, I fill them both up that point any how. 25% is a good marker point imo, even if I'm cold. >.> Have the audio cues start at that point as well and then 1 more time at 10, no need for them to play that often. again imo.

 

[Horst]

I know we do get indicators at intervals. But honestly I never notice them because they seem to be up and gone before you know it. Shows you how ineffective it all is.

Exactly. Thirst/hunger between 50-100% info shouldnt be there - below 50% should be there constantly...idealy as a bar not a countdown ...

And same should go for health...if I'm building, mining, farming and havent been hit by anything for a day or two I don't need the health bar - but if I have been hit it should be visible until I do sth to get rid of it.

 

[beerfly]

Meanwhile, I just wonder if we can get any interaction with the pet animal we are gonna get. If there is a way , even a mod to play fetch with a zed limb with my boy Bud, would be just cool.

Back to topic...offtopic. What if we get HUD stuff added depending on different difficulty levels. Getting all that this hunger, thirst, %s could be added to easier levels, from the menu before you start the game , without giving you option to change it. But, if you play ultimate hard level you have no map, gps, these dials that shows you if your stomache needs a can of what`s left in your inventory. What if hardest level gives you only HP, wellness and the view in front of your eyes. And dead is dead of course. Pimps will do what it needs for that. Keep kickin