PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Roland]

Zero downside in eating to determine whether or not you're hungy?
Let me list the ways...

1 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded

2 - I lose that food, which could be more useful when I'm REALLY hungry

3 - Since the speed hunger increase/decreases based on activity, it's still not a good barometer

4 - So knowing I have just a little bit of blue left to level up is better?

5 - Hunger isn't always just about maxing stats, in this game it's a LIFE OR DEATH FACTOR. Unlike, well, pretty much everything else on the screen.

6 - It's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

At this point I /know/ you're trolling, so I'll let others take the bait. =)

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...except to say that under the right circumstances, 10% to 0% can happen pretty damn quickly, and you end up not even being able to PLAN around eating... maybe that's it? You're not a planner? Well, I am, and apparently so are a good deal many other people... now I won't sit here and say that "we need it because we're paying customers and it's what we want", but I will say it's ♥♥♥♥ing retarded NOT to cater to the wishes of the masses...

Most popular mod? Hud mods. Why? Because not having the info is ♥♥♥♥ing retarded.

Its good to not cater to the wishes of the masses if its a better design. I certainly don't care that my view is a minority view. The current implementation has plenty of warning. I'm fine with Tin's suggestion to change it so the icon pops up and stays up at 25% fullness instead of 10%. I'm not sure why you think that I think having an XP bar is better than having a food bar. They're both crap and unnecessary.

Hunger is a life and death factor which is why we need enough feedback to be able to function. I've learned to function just fine with the only feedback being the hunger pain noise so I absolutely know that the current system is absolutely adequate for hunger feedback if you are paying attention.

I was asked why not have the bar since apparently clutter isn't the real issue. My answer is that the bar is too much information that removes player error in regards to eating and drinking from the game. Without it you have to play with awareness to the signs and you can more easily find yourself in an actual life or death situation which is why we play survival games in the first place. The food and water bars keep us well away from playing to survive. They keep us well within playing keep-the-bar-topped-off.

I'm not trying to troll anyone with this. It is what I believe and I know its unpopular but its also a very interesting subject. I'm also willing to accept the return of the food bar and mod my game if necessary. Who knows? Maybe the xp bar IS just the beginning and its all coming back.

 

[Tilleen]

The current design allows for missed information due to not paying attention which is a completely consistent simulation of a survivor in a stressful and intense environment.
The current design gives "signs of hunger" rather than to the percentage knowledge of 74% vs 73% vs 72% fullness

Adding the food bar would virtually remove any player mistakes in regards to hunger. It would be almost impossible to accidentally face the survival situation of starvation due to player error.

The food bar with its percentages encourages and facilitates gamey behavior for things like getting your wellness up which is unnatural behavior that has nothing to do with how you feel hunger or fullness in real life.

So beyond clutter there are some valid design reasons to do periodic notifications and sound effects rather than always on percentage point by percentage point perfect knowledge.

I get that lots of other games include a food bar. I'm glad TFP made a different choice and I hope they continue to do things that will allow players to make mistakes and have to live with the consequences of those mistakes.

I agree with @roland. There is enough, I have trained myself to recognize the different noises that happen at various times.

I would however still miss it even if the hunger bar was on the screen, I miss the messages that are right in the centre of the screen in the current setup.

If the map went away, I would surely get lost. Or I would train myself to only go a specific direction when traveling.

 

[Tilleen]

If you went into freezing weather unprepared then you never did act sensefully to begin with...

The only problem I have with your statement is this. The temperature can range (randomly?) from very hot to freezing in a snow biome, so the only way to prepare is take a full change of clothes, for very hot and very cold.

 

[beerfly]

The only problem I have with your statement is this. The temperature can range (randomly?) from very hot to freezing in a snow biome, so the only way to prepare is take a full change of clothes, for very hot and very cold.

Temperature levels are still a work in progress. It will get what it needs to give us better experience. Both in Navezgane and RWG. It is before beta stage, so everything can be fixed/changed.

 

[Tilleen]

I would find stats that fade in and out distracting.
Hell, the game could do proper multi monitor support and I'd be fine with the hud on a 2nd monitor. =)

Are there any games that do? I don't play that many different ones, but have not seen any.

 

[Dagzambie]

Man how cool would it be if you had to manually record days gone by? You could scratch them into the walls haha!
Would be terrifying if you lost your record it couldn't remember...

Maybe add a calendar and clock to a wall at the trader that you can set your looted watch the first time, and if you forget to wind it each morning, you can go back to the trader for that info.

 

[Tilleen]

But unlike the map change we are 2 Alphas in to this Hud change and people are still pretty adamant about not liking it much. Maybe if it wasn't standard to see this info in every other survival game. Same can be said for Stamina and Health. No one needs it and if you want just look into the menu to see it. But for the most part many seem to agree having the info there is better than not.
I'm not saying I disagree with it being gone as a mod. It is an interesting way to play, but for standard and to appeal to the almighty general gamer which Pimps try VERY hard to do having it there seems to be the way to happiness.

Do I want it back? Nope. I know how to mod and have zero issues doing it. I always put it back. But others most likely dont and wont. Most likely the majority of the people who like not having a hud are pretty decent at modding already anyway.

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There are a LOT of planners. I am reminded of this every day when our resident mathematician points out ALL the faults in my mods food program lol

Shouldn't you plan by making sure to take food and water with you? (I don't actually do this, I normally forget to leave everything behind when I go scavenging, but almost always leave food behind).

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Well, perhaps with the settings you play on - not so with mine. I've been in similar situations to RD's bedrock-overheating scenario, and being able to make a GO/NO-GO decision without having to stop what you are doing and pull up the menu is pretty important.
You are ok with the current HUD, and some other people are too. As a player and someone with (some) UI design experience, I think it's a sub-optimal design choice.

-A

I agree that it is a sub-optimal design, but that it is this way on purpose to push towards a more survival, immersive type of view.

 

[Guppycur]

Are there any games that do? I don't play that many different ones, but have not seen any.

Supreme Commander supported dual monitors.

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I agree that it is a sub-optimal design, but that it is this way on purpose to push towards a more survival, immersive type of view.

Now we know better, since the xp bar is included in a17.

 

[Tilleen]

Temperature levels are still a work in progress. It will get what it needs to give us better experience. Both in Navezgane and RWG. It is before beta stage, so everything can be fixed/changed.

I agree, it will probably change in the future and be alot better.

 

[KingSlayerGM]

Roland RULES! Everybody shut the hell up.

jk...

jokes aside, I agree with him on everything

 

[Tilleen]

Supreme Commander supported dual monitors.
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And enabled you to put appropriate stuff on it? I just want Elite to hand my 3 monitors correctly (currently opens the menus and centralizes it so that the menu is exactly where the monitor break is.)

Now we know better, since the xp bar is included in a17.

Yeah, I don't understand why this came in either. I did look for it on occasion, but did not find have to open a screen to get it to be too much of a chore.

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Roland RULES! Everybody shut the hell up.jk...

jokes aside, I agree with him on everything

That is probably a dangerous stance to take!!!

 

[bayaholic]

Mad Mole, save the forums and post that new video.

IMO, I like the stats as is without all of the clutter. Roland brings up some good points about knowing your hunger and thirst. (Not going into detail, read the 1 hour of posts/debates yourself). I will argue for a better temperature system. I also like the week x ,day x time, not necessary, but cool nonetheless (shoutout to the person that posted it (Royal Deluxe?.) Other than that, I am one satisfied scavenger.

 

[Bubo]

 

[Jacoviz]

Yeah Madmole, show us that video!

 

[Aurelius]

I agree that it is a sub-optimal design, but that it is this way on purpose to push towards a more survival, immersive type of view.

While I'm all for immersion - the more the merrier - I think the current system was a step away from immersion.

Before the change, if I wanted to know where I was at hunger and thirst, I'd look at the hud. We don't have any other information than these numbers (well, ok except for the orgasm) to indicate what our bodies normally tell us on a moment by moment basis. At least as a proxy, I used to be able to look at the hud and say "Yep, getting a bit hungry, I should eat."

Currently, I have to

- Press a key and go into a menu to see the current state. That's immersion breaking (not to mention annoying.)

- Or, wait until the notification flashes up momentarily (and hope that I don't miss it) again, immersion breaking.

- Or, wait until I'm just about to starve/die of thirst at the last moment to be notified that, yep, I'm going to die.

Nothing about the current system encourages immersion, imo. It just adds an artificial layer of difficulty that is neither intuitive nor realistic.

-A

 

[Roland]

The only problem I have with your statement is this. The temperature can range (randomly?) from very hot to freezing in a snow biome, so the only way to prepare is take a full change of clothes, for very hot and very cold.

I agree that the temperature feature is not up to par yet. But just like anything bugged it is something you either turn off until it is ready or you deal with it and realize it might result in your death at times-- perhaps unfairly. But you don't abandon other things because they don't work will with the bugged system. The way the hunger notification system works now will be more than adequate once temperature makes sense. You will be able to plan for conditions and make sure you don't get killed by random temperature spikes.

It's a bit intellectually disingenuous for SOME people around here to use the faulty temperature bugs as one of the reasons to malign the current system for hunger. Sure it can hit you suddenly and if you haven't paid attention to the signs of hunger before one of those spikes hit you then it can be deadly. But there's no reason to design features around a bug that will eventually get fixed.

 

[Guppycur]

Marcus nailed it; it's more immersion breaking with the current system.

 

[TSBX]

I would love to be able to play the game without any numbers, bars or other "gamey" elements. It would work as long as there were intuitive ways to relay similar information in an immersive manner. The crack decal on blocks to indicate damage is a perfect example. So is the block density changes on terrain. You'd see the damage or density change, instead of watching a hitpoints bar decrease.

Just spit-balling, but maybe change hunger from a number to babysit, into a system where the more well-fed you get, the more effective you are at running, hitting, mining, whatever. Wouldn't be a huge deviation as we have something similar already in the Wellness system. Yes it's just a vehicle to increase a number, but if you could marry the two in a fashion similar to what some of our very talented modders have used buffs for, I think it would work since it's organic, meaningful, and immersive. Thoughts? Suggestions?

(Related, can we have the ability to have buffs fire using multiple custom variables? Currently it fires if either variable is met.[OR instead of AND])

 

[Roland]

While I'm all for immersion - the more the merrier - I think the current system was a step away from immersion.
Before the change, if I wanted to know where I was at hunger and thirst, I'd look at the hud. We don't have any other information than these numbers (well, ok except for the orgasm) to indicate what our bodies normally tell us on a moment by moment basis. At least as a proxy, I used to be able to look at the hud and say "Yep, getting a bit hungry, I should eat."

Currently, I have to

- Press a key and go into a menu to see the current state. That's immersion breaking (not to mention annoying.)

- Or, wait until the notification flashes up momentarily (and hope that I don't miss it) again, immersion breaking.

- Or, wait until I'm just about to starve/die of thirst at the last moment to be notified that, yep, I'm going to die.

Nothing about the current system encourages immersion, imo. It just adds an artificial layer of difficulty that is neither intuitive nor realistic.

-A

ummm...currently, I

-Have a routine of eating breakfast and dinner each day and that pretty much handles hunger 95% of the time without needing to check anything

-Think about how long its been since the last time I ate if I'm worried and if its been awhile I eat something just to be sure and then I KNOW

-Notice the notifications pretty much without fail because I....got used to the new normal 2 Alphas ago instead of modding in a HUD immediately.

-Notice the hunger pain noise because it is not not noticeable

-Realize that in most non-bugged temperature situations when the permanent 10% notification comes on I have lots of time before death actually takes me. In fact there is no penalty at all until I've been at 0% for awhile.

-Don't agonize over the loss of a wellness point or two

-Never check my bar on the character screen and never need to.

It's not for everyone. I get that. The bar just shouldn't be characterized as something that is necessary to see or to check in order to function. Just like anything it took some getting used to but now I am much happier without the bar and with it gone it does mean that mistakes can be made since I never

-say hmmmm.. lets keep that bar up above 80% all the time....

 

[Aurelius]

It's a bit intellectually disingenuous for SOME people around here to use the faulty temperature bugs as one of the reasons to malign the current system for hunger. Sure it can hit you suddenly and if you haven't paid attention to the signs of hunger before one of those spikes hit you then it can be deadly. But there's no reason to design features around a bug that will eventually get fixed.

Good sir, I have yet to hear that TFP is going to revisit the temperature system.

Are you saying that they are aware that the system does not work well in it's current state - as a spokesperson for the company - and they are going to change it? Or are you just saying that in your opinion there are bugs with the current system?

I guess until we hear otherwise, we can only assume that weather isn't going to be changed to be more realistic, and thus it's a valid point of reference for the discussion at hand.

-A