PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[JaxTeller718]

I think what people are failing to understand here in the midst of their outrage is that having a fully destructible world with mining and zombies takes a LOT of resources. Now yes those resources have been fine tuned, and I'm certain the new Unity is sparing them a lot of overhead but the new AI , the jeep, the HD quality graphics along with new models and items and better built pois and artwork takes these resources BACK. There is no feasible way to constantly add more, expand more, without losing something.

If that price is a smaller map so be it i say. It's NOT that big of a deal to me. Now I know why it might be to others, but with so many complaints about stagnation in POI design, wanting improved and more intelligent AI, wanting more zombies on screen etc the sacrifice has to be made somewhere and it appears as if RWG is taking this hit, both with map size and losing a biome or two.

Ambition is great, but it has its limitations. This is a much different game than it was 3 years ago. My mod went from a resource hog to an IMMENSE resource hog just by adding some models. Corners have to be cut somewhere if we wish to continue in this fully destructible voxel world. It's unfortunate, but it makes sense. There's a reason why some questions were asked a year or so ago about how we would accept a world where underground digging didn't exist. There are a LOT of resources going into maintaining the underground life. Lets not judge and condemn one change that is being made in favor of expanding the core gameplay.

When someone can point me to a full voxel game with this amount of content and enemy AI and it has a randomly generated world BIGGER than 7 Days then we can talk. Armchair devving is great and all but there also has to be an understanding of all the components and how they have to work together, otherwise we dip our toes back into the OTHER discussion and that's increasing minimum requirements ABOVE the standard build.

 

[The Batman]

Wait.....

Are we really going from 314 km^2

Toward only 64km^2 ?

Even if it's going to be more densely packed which I doubt. That means less resources // less exploring (area wise) // less hidden small bases on MP. If this HAD to be done in order to improve performance then in my humble opinion it is a too great cut.

the 10km in all directions ment you could all play in total isolation on MP with 4 people or 10+ even. If the size is just a square of 8 by 8. That is all going to change. I don't know about you but we all explore so much.

I hereby activate my non existant VETO and I hope that the map will be made bigger. RWG is the lifethread of this game. Whether intended or not. Smaller RWG maps, like 8 by 8 is really small in a square setting. Won't cut it imo.

EDIT a 80% cut in map size is not defendable imo

 

[DaVegaNL]

When someone can point me to a full voxel game with this amount of content and enemy AI and it has a randomly generated world BIGGER than 7 Days then we can talk.

I'm guessing you won't take Minecraft as an answer? ^^ Depends on how one would define content and AI of course..

 

[JaxTeller718]

I'm guessing you won't take Minecraft as an answer? ^^ Depends on how one would define content and AI of course..

With those kindergarten graphics? No. And you should know better than to even bring that game up in the same breath. Do you think texture and graphic quality have NO impact on resources the game needs?

Sure 7 Days can revert to Minecraft standard graphics, but i wont be playing it and im certain thousands of others won't be either.

I can see why you would think the bottom image and the top image should take the same amount of resources and run the same way :rollseyes

 

[DaVegaNL]

With those kindergarten graphics? No. And you should know better than to even bring that game up in the same breath. Do you think texture and graphic quality have NO impact on resources the game needs?
Sure 7 Days can revert to Minecraft standard graphics, but i wont be playing it and im certain thousands of others won't be either.

I can see why you would think the bottom image and the top image should take the same amount of resources and run the same way :rollseyes

Of course I know graphics and textures have a major impact on game resource-requirements.

But in your question you didn't mention anything regarding graphics/textures.. You asked about content/AI/world size.

 

[kamer1337]

with this super small map, now there is going to be a lot action on pvp servers and hard to hide base :miserable: ( kinda good and not at the same time )

 

[wmdvanzyl]

Wait what? Multiplayer Basic will be 2k Radius? That's smaller than Navezgane isn't it? :f
Nvm I'm half asleep.. Someone explain it better?

Is this correct?

1: We're going from circle to square

2: We're going from 10k radius to 8k

Basically this?

View attachment 24845

If the red circle is a RADIUS of 10, then it would mean the green square should be 1/4 the size it is on this image, giving it a SIDE of 8.

 

[WhiteLion]

When someone can point me to a full voxel game with this amount of content and enemy AI and it has a randomly generated world BIGGER than 7 Days then we can talk. Armchair devving is great and all but there also has to be an understanding of all the components and how they have to work together, otherwise we dip our toes back into the OTHER discussion and that's increasing minimum requirements ABOVE the standard build.

You did never play minecraft with mod packs, did you ? a modpack can hold up to 200 mods and only ONE of this mods (like draconic evolution) brings more content to the game like 7 days vanilla did in the past 3 years ! minecraft uses crappy java what means it uses 1 cpu core only and has tons of amazing expansions. with shaders and hi-res textures it looks better than 7 days (there is even smooth terrain and mods can add subvoxels). I no its not comparable in some cases to 7 days but technically (not meaning java) its light years form the vanilla minecraft and from 7 days a way!

shader optical impression:

 

[Aldranon]

I still think there can be an easy mechanism for a near infinite world.

Go to the border edge and the radiated zones will always be completely flat or have a mountain ridge with some passes.

This way any two random maps will fit without any pre-calculations or have the terrain clash.

If you wanted to get fancy and still keep it pretty simple:

- From the starter map if you went west far enough, then all your maps will be water (Pacific Ocean).

- If you went north enough more biomes would be snow.

- You could have major city locations as entire maps that are one big city in some xml files.

You get the idea. The maps don't have to be exact, because apocalypse!

 

[DaVegaNL]

You did never play minecraft with mod packs, did you ? a modpack can hold up to 200 mods and only ONE of this mods (like draconic evolution) brings more content to the game like 7 days vanilla did in the past 3 years ! minecraft uses crappy java what means it uses 1 cpu core only and has tons of amazing expansions. with shaders and hi-res textures it looks better than 7 days (there is even smooth terrain and mods can add subvoxels). I no its not comparable in some cases to 7 days but technically (not meaning java) its light years form the vanilla minecraft and from 7 days a way!
shader optical impression:

Thanks for the examples. I wouldn't go so far and state that a single Minecraft mod adds more content then vanilla 7D2D in a while though.

However, I find it rather typical that a lot of people immediately dismiss Minecraft as a complex and deep game, since it has 'kindergarten graphics'. A) Graphics do not have anything to do with gameplay, and B) it's not like 7D2D has noteworthy graphics (nor does it need to).

 

[KingSlayerGM]

@JaxTeller718

The size of the map has nothing to do with graphics.

They now pregenerate the map to allow faster chunk loading, like there is in Navezgane. So, in order for the pregeneration to not take forever, they reduced the size. (it is still way bigger than Navezgane)

The portion of the map that is loaded around your player is what matters in regard to graphics. The more is loaded around you, the more demanding it is. But whether the map is 100Km2 or 1000Km2 or 1000000Km2, it doesn't matter.

 

[petruherro]

Right now, not even that, since it IS turned on, but the passenger will jitter around in the seat, since there are timing/attachment issues. If we don't disable, 20 people will instantly complain it is buggy. The humanity!
It might get disabled, once one of our testers notices it is glitchy and someone here decides it makes a bad impression or maybe stay that way for A17 if none of us cares.

Alright thanks for the answer.

 

[Blight]

64 km² to explore is completly fine and enjoyable.... In Singleplayer.
With this move, this drastically Reduction, you will kill every Server that runs with more than 12 Players.

Lots of Players that i encountered play a mixture of Co-Op and Meeting other Players in certain Hubs, and than again prefer the loneliness of the wilderness.

I feel that this Reduction will cause the Cities to be looted 24/7, Bases next to one another, and a Feeling of beeing crowded - in the Post Apocalypse.

In our last Server Cycle wich went from Jan 21 to Apr 22, we had over 1900 Player visiting our Server.

I can see every single Landclaim Block and the Center of the Map is the most used place, but you can also see the Tracks of Players and see all those who wandered around to the rim of the map, explored foreign Cities and scouted for new Interisting landmarks to built a new base into.

This all will be gone, as i fear it at this moment.

I do know that you develop for a 8 Player-Server Structure, but please think about those consequenses.

Different Players, Different Approaches. My Experience does not have to be the same as yours. But was it to much asked, what the Playerbase would vote for in a public and advertised Poll?

I know its your Game, TFP. But we the Players enabled you to make your Game, as we bought it in Early Access for the Features it had, or for the Features that would come. But this drastically Reduction... no one signed for.

10k map, 2200+ players :biggrin-new:

 

[Flat0ut]

My brother is so mad like: where the hell is alpha 17? I dont know what to play. All day he plays that clash of clans bull♥♥♥♥. Are you 100%+++ sure it wont be delayed to september? I wanna enjoy the new alpha before my university starts bull♥♥♥♥ting me with learning

 

[Gareee]

This whole mapgate thing has me confused.

We started playing on the playstation at launch, and the rgw maps were way too small.. you could literally drive completely across them in one game day on a minibike.

Can anyone relate the *actual* new map sizes (there's a lot of debate as to the actual size) to the launch playstation map sizes? Part of the reason we switched to gaming pcs was for the larger worlds that were more fun to explore.

Its sounding like the new map sizes are 1/4 of the original map sizes, which would mean you could travel across the entire map in less than a game day now. That makes it sound like biomes are a lot smaller than they should be.. crossing through a desert for example should take more than a few minutes, right?

Part of what was a challenge before was starting in a specific biome, figuring out how to survive in it, and making your way to another one.. now it sounds like you could travel through 3 different complete biomes in a day, to find whatever resources you need.

 

[cowboyjones]

I don't get where yall started thinking we are loosing 80% of map size. with out over thinking it the current map is 10000x10000 it is being reduced to 8000x8000. from page one +Random Generated Worlds are now 8000x8000 meters 7/24/18. to me that is about a 20 maybe 30 percent decrease not 80.

 

[The Gronk]

Okay... I reiterate...

As I understand it the 8km limit on the map is the default setting. I distinctly remember having a discussion in which Roland was involved where it was revealed that the map size could be set to far larger than 10km.

The main problem with such a large map is that the player tends to shake uncontrollably as they get further from the origin point of the world. This has been solved by rebuilding the map with the players position as the new origin point when they get too far away.

Where is everyone getting the idea that 8km is the maximum map size?

 

[dhlmaster]

You did never play minecraft with mod packs, did you ? a modpack can hold up to 200 mods and only ONE of this mods (like draconic evolution) brings more content to the game like 7 days vanilla did in the past 3 years ! minecraft uses crappy java what means it uses 1 cpu core only and has tons of amazing expansions. with shaders and hi-res textures it looks better than 7 days (there is even smooth terrain and mods can add subvoxels). I no its not comparable in some cases to 7 days but technically (not meaning java) its light years form the vanilla minecraft and from 7 days a way!
shader optical impression:

First thing I noticed in that first video was NO, it doesn't look better than 7DTD in any aspect. Second thing, there is no structural integrity, you can tell because when you cut down the trunk of the tree, the rest stays hanging in the air. If you've ever seen the way that 7DTD gets bogged down when you destroy a large structure, that's the SI calculations consuming your cpu.

 

[Flat0ut]

Okay... I reiterate...
As I understand it the 8km limit on the map is the default setting. I distinctly remember having a discussion in which Roland was involved where it was revealed that the map size could be set to far larger than 10km.

The main problem with such a large map is that the player tends to shake uncontrollably as they get further from the origin point of the world. This has been solved by rebuilding the map with the players position as the new origin point when they get too far away.

Where is everyone getting the idea that 8km is the maximum map size?

BUT:

They made dynamic origin point, so there wont be any shaking like that anymore.

 

[The Gronk]

BUT:
They made dynamic origin point, so there wont be any shaking like that anymore.

Yes, I know. That's the system I just described.