PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Crater Creator]

Make the average zombie like a short range screamer. If they see you and get a scream off before you can neutralize them, then ALL zombies wake up in the area. They could give the stealth player usefulness on par with a melee expert player.

I think a 'wake up all the zombies in the area' phenomenon would hurt sleeper gameplay. You could do it on purpose to lure all the sleepers out of a building. You'd have a much easier time killing them outside in a cluster, and they'd open paths for you in the process of breaking out. But this idea would work well for zombies milling about out on the streets, which I'm hoping to see more of.

 

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

And here I was thinking I was on edge sometimes..

Looks like you need to up your game!

 

[Crater Creator]

And the idea of building a separate horde base actually sounds nonsensical to me. This is already "meta gaming" - you can't protect your valuable stuff by securing a base so you build a "fake base" that has nothing valuable in it. That's not intuitive, it only makes sense in 7D2D.

Nonsense. Think of any location in The Walking Dead. Each family unit keeps their valuables in one place - a jail cell, a suburban house, a hotel room - but they don't fight the zombies from that location if they can help it. They get up in a guard tower, or patrol the outermost fence, or go further afield to find the zombies proactively. Whether it's part of the same base can become somewhat semantic, but when given the chance to design your own living arrangements, it's not "meta" to plan against fighting out of your bedroom, your workshop or whatever place is considered valuable.

And if, conceptually, verticality didn't proffer an unbalanced advantage in gameplay, strong and/or thick walls would still be just two of several options, alongside traps that slow, traps that damage, traps that redirect (mazes/funnels/pits), melee weapons, ranged weapons, and yes, stilt and underground bases. Players, as always, could use all of these in various degrees according to their preferences, except each of them would be brought into balance instead of some being infallible. Overwhelming a new/casual player wouldn't be balanced, and neither is a strategy that's infinitely effective.

faatal's posts about zombie pathing have been particularly encouraging, and I think in A17 once we get over the residual fear of wandering hordes tearing through surface buildings for no good reason, we'll get comfortable putting stations and storage on the ground floor again.

 

[Con Agni]

You call this “endgame” content. Others would call it midgame and still complain for more because they rushed as quickly as they could to get there. There will always come a time when the player is bored because all threats have been overcome. Adding ever more and greater threats sounds like post launch updates to me—and even then there is going to be a point where they will have to stop and there will STILL be reviews that will appear claiming TFP abandoned the “endgame”. Do endgame credits need to roll in order to signal that the game is over and it’s time to start over or move on?

Sorry to say, but i think yes

 

[Jay_ombie]

With regards to zombies and there AI. Long as they can keep destroying what's in front of them and can't be stopped with ledges, rails, or some other form of block combo then we are

half way there. Saw so many common base designs where zombies just stopped and did nothing to the base it became monotonous.

End game in a sandbox environment should always be left to the player to decide I feel. That's why it's a sandbox.

 

[Gamida]

I disagree that making them smarter is the only realistic way to make them more challenging. They could have additional physical abilities that allow them to overcome obstacles that they can't overcome with intelligence. They already have quite a few - they can spit unlimited amounts of acid, regenerate health, never get tired, break steel with their bare hands, etc.
We can debate whether 'smart' zombies or 'magic' zombies are more purist. But probably a big reason why they've already fallen more on the supernatural abilities side of things is precisely because it's a realistic (from a programming standpoint) way to make them more challenging.

I think one of the physical abilities that would make them more challenging even in smaller groups would be their collision.

Right now if I am looting a building and get surprised by a small group of zombies coming in the door I just opened (the only exit at that time) then all I have to do is run through them....and I mean through. They are like ghosts. If/when that is ever fixed....well lets just say I will be joining their ranks a lot more in the game.

 

[trielkee]

I think that more random events would really benefit 7D2D, something like the random horde or pack of zombie dogs that are allready in.

For example, there's a small chance of a storm spawning over the area where the player resides and with it a bunch of vultures circling over the players base and attacking while the storm lasts.

Or something similar...

 

[Marinxar]

One of the kickstarter concepts was to have a element of Tower Defense in the game. So with new AI pathing, this will come in to fruition.

So this will change surface building somewhat. Anyone that knows a good TD, knows that just a bunch of spikes, or just a bunch of dmg traps etc. won't work. Finding the balance between maizing, slowing and damaging traps will be key. Up to now, maizing did not work, because zombies will always try and take the shortest route. So you try and maize them, they can't figure out how to get around the object. Even terrain objects, they would get stopped by a rock and just stand there and hit through it, opposed to walking around it.

So I am excited that the new AI might prove good enough that we would need to start using some thinking when it comes to base building and defense. Some planning ahead, instead of digging 3x4 trench with a ladder to outside and 2 shotgun turrets on inside.

 

[Tin]

Instinctual animalistic predatory cunning mixed with a hive mind is what I want. Not smart enough to use tools but willing to crawl or climb using hand holds and openings if smell, sound, motion, or light draws them forward. If two or three zombies turn toward a potential meal then others in the area do as well.
If a zombie knows you are close but can’t find you it rages against nearby blocks to try and bring down the obstacle or perch preventing it from getting what it wants and others will aggro and join in and if they can actually target blocks and hit them then it will work to become a threat you can’t ignore as you watch them boil below you. Kill them or be ready to bolt or in some way distract them or get them to lose their sense of you because your safe perch will soon fall if you just stand up there watching...

hehe I think it would also help if the zeds (and players) got 1 block egress/ingress back and being able to pull themselves up over 2m obstacles. Couple 1 block egress/ ingress and zeds being able to pull themselves up from 2m situations (most window ledges/some fences) would go a long ways as well.

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I can't think of any movies or books off the top of my head, but the zombies in The Walking Dead and Fear The Walking Dead are pretty much devoid of any instincts or "edge". They're slow, stupid and almost a non threat when not in an enormous group. That being said, they are probably the most boring and uneventful group of zombies I've ever seen, so I do agree with you that the zombies should have some sort of advantage over the player to keep things interesting.

yep, Agree fully.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Just my 2 eurocents as a contribution to this end-game discussion. One should clearly separate end-game content from late-game content.

Late-game content is something which I've been asking for for ages, and I'm sure we will get. Eventually. Possible. Post-launch. To be determined when.

End-game content, as in, the game ends afterwards? Nah, I prefer not to have such things. Sure, if the game can be continued afterwards, then it would be fine, but is it truly end-game then?

 

[Infected226]

Lets just stop messing with my heart strings and rename the game ALPHA ITS DONE WHEN ITS DONE

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:crushed: Is it just me or are they adding HP to the big red bar each day in small amounts so we don't notice?

 

[courgi]

Perhaps in theme with zombies having unique abilities, some zombie types have better AI than others? Maybe have dumber zombie types follow the smarter types Land of the Dead style.

 

[Cazmyr]

Make the average zombie like a short range screamer. If they see you and get a scream off before you can neutralize them, then ALL zombies wake up in the area. They could give the stealth player usefulness on par with a melee expert player.

I just hope it would not become a cycle of endless zombies.

For me personally this is a building game with zombies. I enjoy and even need the zombies to enjoy it, but if it turned into a situation that they just kept calling and calling and I could never be able build because I have to fight them off non stop then that would not be fun, to me.

 

[Cazmyr]

Lets just stop messing with my heart strings and rename the game ALPHA ITS DONE WHEN ITS DONE
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:crushed: Is it just me or are they adding HP to the big red bar each day in small amounts so we don't notice?

It is just you.

It is moving quite well actually.

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Perhaps in theme with zombies having unique abilities, some zombie types have better AI than others? Maybe have dumber zombie types follow the smarter types Land of the Dead style.

I nominate:

Tourist = Dumb

Nurse/ Businessman = Smart

 

[Aurelius]

I think a 'wake up all the zombies in the area' phenomenon would hurt sleeper gameplay. You could do it on purpose to lure all the sleepers out of a building. You'd have a much easier time killing them outside in a cluster, and they'd open paths for you in the process of breaking out. But this idea would work well for zombies milling about out on the streets, which I'm hoping to see more of.

I personally like this idea. But no need for a screamer; just have each zombie generate a certain amount of noise when it walks and attacks which should then wake up the sleepers within hearing. It'd be a nice chain reaction...

-A

 

[The Gronk]

I personally like this idea. But no need for a screamer; just have each zombie generate a certain amount of noise when it walks and attacks which should then wake up the sleepers within hearing. It'd be a nice chain reaction...
-A

Giving zombies a relatively short-range ability to attract/ wake nearby Z's could work, make some less likely to hear it than others would add something to randomness. More zombies that actually notice you the louder the noise. That would be in line with the genre where quite often the protagonists are noticed by a single zombie which then alerts the rest of the horde. As it stands you can drag individuals away from a horde by making sure only they notice you.

 

[Survager]

I have two questions:

- Can I slow down the crafting of objects with a broken hand?

- What happens if a player dies from infection, but will his arm and poisoning be broken? Infection will remain? What other debuffs are left?

- Will work radiated zone in 17 Alpha? And will work in radiation zone Hazmat?

 

[Xeen]

If you are like me and build your forever base on a 21x21x6 concrete slab then it doesn't matter what the zombies do they aren't destroying it to take down your base because the entire slab is structural.

For me I'm looking for a next zombie up mechanic where they can climb on the backs of the zombie in front of them like ants and overcome obstacles.

For example if you use an iron bars as a vertical ledge to stop zombies from climbing they will just climb on the back of the closest zombie and damage the bars until they clear the obstacle and provide a path for the rest of the zombies to get through, this should already be true for the spider zombies they should already be exhibiting this behavior.

There are all kinds of behaviors that zombies can exhibit which would give us a challenge we just have to challenge Fataal to think more about it.

 

[Cazmyr]

If you are like me and build your forever base on a 21x21x6 concrete slab then it doesn't matter what the zombies do they aren't destroying it to take down your base because the entire slab is structural.For me I'm looking for a next zombie up mechanic where they can climb on the backs of the zombie in front of them like ants and overcome obstacles.

For example if you use an iron bars as a vertical ledge to stop zombies from climbing they will just climb on the back of the closest zombie and damage the bars until they clear the obstacle and provide a path for the rest of the zombies to get through, this should already be true for the spider zombies they should already be exhibiting this behavior.

There are all kinds of behaviors that zombies can exhibit which would give us a challenge we just have to challenge Fataal to think more about it.

No.....no....I can't say I am like you....

I do like your idea about climbing on each other to damage blocks and bars above though.

 

[Aldranon]

I just hope it would not become a cycle of endless zombies.
For me personally this is a building game with zombies. I enjoy and even need the zombies to enjoy it, but if it turned into a situation that they just kept calling and calling and I could never be able build because I have to fight them off non stop then that would not be fun, to me.

I certainly hope not. I was thinking they would just waking up the zombies in the POI and maybe a bit further. No easy kills if you are not good at stealth.