PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[SxR]

It would be cool if the game had child zombies.

You're welcome.

Wasn't there a massive controversy about that a little while back, in terms of getting the game censored / banned in certain countries which would possibly affect sales or something?

We already got ■■■■, though.. I love this. Need more ■■■■.

More topless Zombies please MadMole.

... maybe ♥♥♥♥s too.

 

[The Gronk]

Just wait until the next pvp player turns up, they behave like ■■■■ while being ♥♥♥♥s.

Does this profanity filter even work anymore...

S♥♥♥♥horpe

Ah, well, at least I can still say ■■■■■ ■■■■■■■s

 

[Guppycur]

@Phoenix

To me it's not so much as a conscious effort on the part of the zombie, but instead, a behind the scenes mechanic that made the game challenging.

 

[ghost1257]

ideas

Should add an electric mining elevator the ones that have the cage all around them.

 

[Gnomaana]

I can see a zombie following the trail of a human either through sight, sound or smell. It doesn't take a genius to figure out fresh footprints lead somewhere or that a sound is likely to be made by food. With little abiliy to reason they're pretty much just going to try and batter their way to whatever has attracted them with others following behind because of the commotion made by those in the front.
I'm not entirely convinced about them all going for the weakest block though. Sure some of them may have a bit more grey matter left than others but when being infected with zombieism (zombism?) gives you an insatiable lust for raw flesh and a PHD in structural engineering I think we may be straying a little too far from the Romero classic.

The problem is stupid zombies are no challenge unless they either a) come in huge numbers or b) have so many hit points they are hard to kill.

a) isn't really doable in a voxel game. Optimization will help them be able to up the numbers somewhat but there will be a ceiling. and b) is no fun at all. The only realistic(from a programming standpoint, not "realism") way to make them more challenging is to make them smarter. Hide it under random behavior if possible so they still seem stupid but they need to take out pillars, or go for weak blocks, or whatever else the devs think up. But, given the limitations of voxel based games, they will be somewhat smarter than your average movie zombie or they won't be challenging at all.

 

[Tin]

The problem is stupid zombies are no challenge unless they either a) come in huge numbers or b) have so many hit points they are hard to kill.
a) isn't really doable in a voxel game. Optimization will help them be able to up the numbers somewhat but there will be a ceiling. and b) is no fun at all. The only realistic(from a programming standpoint, not "realism") way to make them more challenging is to make them smarter. Hide it under random behavior if possible so they still seem stupid but they need to take out pillars, or go for weak blocks, or whatever else the devs think up. But, given the limitations of voxel based games, they will be somewhat smarter than your average movie zombie or they won't be challenging at all.

:nerd: talk.

George Romero had zeds that used weapons, in just about every one of his movie. Return of the living dead had zeds that could talk n run n use ladders. WWZ had runners and they could climb and so on. I guess I want to know from others what Zed movie or books did they watch/read that didn't have zeds having an edge in some form or another. I really can't recall any books or movies (except White Zombie? can't fully recall in that one) that didn't give zeds (or at least some zeds) semi intelligence or instinct in some form or another.

My vote is zeds with semi Intelligence so I agree with smarter zeds or some being smarter at least.

Oh! I take that back "High School Of The Dead" didn't have any real intelligent zeds, other than them being pure eating machines and using numbers.

 

[The Gronk]

There we have the crux of the problem, at the moment it's sheer weight of numbers trying to attack a base essentially only using the x,z axis. This is what makes stilt bases so effective and why I generally avoid making them. Sure, with no other option they should lash out at whatever they can hit but should targeting structural weaknesses be their first course of action? Should they be able to calculate the weakest block off the top of their head faster than I can?

Three options for dealing with stilt bases have been tried, spider zombies, aerial threat, and gore blocks. Spiders can't climb a greater angle than vertical which makes them trivial to circumvent even without a stilt base. Vultures, and their predecessor bees, are more of an annoyance than a threat. Gore blocks were dropped due to the amount of work required to get them working properly.

Don't get me started on the need for a decent threat to underground bases.

 

[Tin]

There we have the crux of the problem, at the moment it's sheer weight of numbers trying to attack a base essentially only using the x,z axis. This is what makes stilt bases so effective and why I generally avoid making them. Sure, with no other option they should lash out at whatever they can hit but should targeting structural weaknesses be their first course of action?
Three options for dealing with stilt bases have been tried, spider zombies, aerial threat, and gore blocks. Spiders can't climb a greater angle than vertical which makes them trivial to circumvent even without a stilt base. Vultures, and their predecessor bees, are more of an annoyance than a threat. Gore blocks were dropped due to the amount of work required to get them working properly.

Don't get me started on the need for a decent threat to underground bases.

haha

Yeah, I don't think it should be their first priority but after awhile they should start to get more physically aggressive. Lashing out at everything within their sight that is near them over time, if they can't get to a player or NPC.

I know making zeds (right now) that thrash around works and eventually they will get to you if you let them go, above or below ground.

 

[The Gronk]

Zombies _should_ be idiots, relatively easy to deal with individually but dangerous in large numbers or with special powers

 

[uowaep]

Please not Bandits and Horde Night at the same time, that breaks the immersion. No human ever would be stupid enough to go outside and attack other humans during Horde Night, that is just a huge no no, because it would only make sense if the Zombies for some reason ignored the Bandits, but not the players...

In an ideal world, the Bandits would for example try to blackmail players (like driving to their stronghold, dropping a crate with a note that demands certain resources by a certain time) and if the player doesn't cooperate (or kills the messengers...) the Bandits would start to harass and sometimes even attack the players. A typical harassment would be trying to sabotage the players base shortly before Horde Night by sneaking in and placing TNT - or using in Rocket Launcher from a distance in later game stages. Just trashing the defenses in the hope that this leads to the Zombies cleaning the place during the next Horde Night, so they can go in and loot afterwards. Random Snipers appearing and taking a few shots at building players would be another case. An all-out-attack should be rare and only if you ■■■■ off the bandits massively (killing to many of them or attacking their outposts - i really hope they have outposts!) - and those attacks should be really, really deadly and especially damaging for your base... Bandit attacks should mostly happen the last two days before or after Horde Night, so either to weaken the players base for Horde Night or to abuse the damage Horde Night may have done to the base.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsO1zarkOj8 (short scene from Dawn of the Dead)

The zombies should not ignore the bandits, but may not realize they are there right away if they are already on a target. I guess I'm imagining more of an instance where a wandering horde is has noticed someone and is attacking their base or just one area for too long, or just an extra large number of zombies has accumulated around an area from letting screamers run around unattended or something similarly irresponsible. This would mean a ton of AI in one area, so maybe not something for a17 or a18.

Your example would be good, but they need to have outposts that you can destroy to get them off your back for at least a while. Ideally, if one was destroyed, another outpost would start up (power vacuum), but not as strong until some time has passed. This would give something for the player to look for while exploring. It would also add a patrol element.

 

[Gnomaana]

Zombies _should_ be idiots, relatively easy to deal with individually but dangerous in large numbers or with special powers

You come up with a way to make large enough numbers work on a voxel game then. You seem to ignore the fact that the limit the engine can handle is too low to make stupid zombies dangerous.

And, "special powers"? So some intelligence is an absolute disaster as a way to make zombies dangerous but magic is ok? Ok, their "special power" is knowing how to make a building fall. They don't know SI they just have a power.

 

[Armstrrong]

Wasn't there a massive controversy about that a little while back, in terms of getting the game censored / banned in certain countries which would possibly affect sales or something?
We already got ■■■■, though.. I love this. Need more ■■■■.

More topless Zombies please MadMole.

... maybe ♥♥♥♥s too.

We have small screamer girl, so the game has a child.

I think there is enough topless Zombies in game and there is no need to add more, and if you want ♥♥♥♥s.... just play Conan Exiles.

 

[The Gronk]

You come up with a way to make large enough numbers work on a voxel game then. You seem to ignore the fact that the limit the engine can handle is too low to make stupid zombies dangerous.
And, "special powers"? So some intelligence is an absolute disaster as a way to make zombies dangerous but magic is ok? Ok, their "special power" is knowing how to make a building fall. They don't know SI they just have a power.

FYI, I'm currently dealing with settlement and road creation over 1 trillion square kilometres. Yes, you read that right, 1 trillion. I know the pain of programming.

The current speed issues in 7dtd has had quite a bit to do with the use of a relatively primitive version of a* pathfinding. Apparently this has been improved for A17 so they should be able to add more Z's.

Another main bottleneck is entity spawning, I'm not sure if TFP are using object pooling, I haven't the time to hunt through the A16 code, but they should be if they aren't.

The rest is largely due to mesh complexity and animation issues, without looking at the raw project I'm not guessing about the background details of their animation setup but I know TFP love detailed graphics (anyone remember the bowl that had something like a 2048x2048 texture?) so there's little chance of them dropping mesh and textures to a more reasonable level.

As far as I know the actual voxel calculations are done in a separate thread using c++ code so it shouldn't impact the game speed too much. I may be wrong and someone has balanced co-routines incredibly well but I don't think so.

The "zombie idiot" post was a joke. Why so serious?

 

[uowaep]

Imo, what PVP really needs is clans, clan tags or something that indicates that another player is in your clan, clan chat, and clan building rules around a clan land claim.

I'm not sure if it should be obvious if an anonymous player is in a clan, or which clan, maybe leave that to server options. Maybe have an option to disable pvp with non-clan players, or just have a huge penalty for killing non-clan players that would equate to bad karma.

Clan PVP is where it's at, and it makes sense if the game is introducing bandits.

I hear a lot of people talking about how they don't like being killed in PVP. I know you don't want to hear not to play PVP, so I'll just say this: Stop trying to hog developer time with PVE. They're going to do what they want. Be constructive and honest.

 

[Crater Creator]

Yes. Pretty much what I did for my PVP Arena server. Fun, fast, furious.

A brilliant stroke of pure and utter genius! After 17,000 posts you spelled "yes" the standard way.

Does this profanity filter even work anymore...
S♥♥♥♥horpe

Ah, well, at least I can still say ■■■■■ ■■■■■■■s

Character substitutions to avoid the automatic profanity filter seem to be cropping up more and more often. As a reminder to everyone, this is against the rules, so please don't do it.

 

[Demonoid74]

Wasn't there a massive controversy about that a little while back, in terms of getting the game censored / banned in certain countries which would possibly affect sales or something?
We already got ■■■■, though.. I love this. Need more ■■■■.

More topless Zombies please MadMole.

... maybe ♥♥♥♥s too.

Midget Stripper Zombies...satisfies both needs in one small package...

 

[Bubo]

(forum intermission)

 

[skullpoker]

A brilliant stroke of pure and utter genius! After 17,000 posts you spelled "yes" the standard way.


Character substitutions to avoid the automatic profanity filter seem to be cropping up more and more often. As a reminder to everyone, this is against the rules, so please don't do it.

YOU SHUT YOUR Character substitutions MOUTH!

 

[The Gronk]

A brilliant stroke of pure and utter genius! After 17,000 posts you spelled "yes" the standard way.


Character substitutions to avoid the automatic profanity filter seem to be cropping up more and more often. As a reminder to everyone, this is against the rules, so please don't do it.

I haven't used character subs-■■■-ution at all. I'm just trying to find out where the profanity filter draws the line... apparently the city of S♥♥♥♥horpe must forever remain obscured.

 

[Scyris]

As a gamer here:Why not some kind of controlled PvP system in general? Someone that wants to shoot at you has to call you out, then you would get 20 seconds or so to get the hell out of there or be ready to fight. Then fights are always fair in that regard. It wouldn't stop them from say, setting mines outside a door of a house you were looting or anything. But for ranged it would provide a more fair and, dare I say it, fun way to duel it out. It's never fun to be shot in the back, there is a reason you rarely see that kind of thing in shows and movies, it's boring and shooting someone in the back has been frowned upon since the invention of the ranged weapon.

This would allow say, a sniper perk that would lower the callout time, but you would have to specialize in it. I'm not speaking as a dev here. I've just thought about games and how things work on say, walking dead when there is a confrontation. Rick and the other leaders get right up in each other's business before a firefight. That, in my mind makes the upcoming fight that much more intense. Knowing you have X time to post up, and them knowing that they can't attack you until that timer is out.

Just a thought from a guy with oddball ideas. lol

PS, I know it sounds very western(ish) heh

Wouldn't fly as most pvp players are more intersted in ganking people than actual fair fights, it is a good idea though, but I can already see them crying about it because they can't just gank anyone they see anymore.