PC Developer Discussions: Alpha 17
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The Gronk
Colon Pounder
The terrain generation was changed. You may have noticed that lanes now come perpendicularly off a diagonal road among other things. The slightest change in a procedurally generated system will have a huge impact by the time the map has generated. Unfortunately that's just the nature of procedurally generated terrain.
Axe13
New member
pretty sure the radiation is just near the edge of the maps (this was stated quite a while back on original a17 patch notes I think). On the 4000x4000 maps I noticed it seems closer in than you'd think. can't even get to the snow or desert biomes before you get mutated. Best to keep an eye on the map. if you can't pan in a direction, be wary.
Exxodous
Active member
I play on 120 min days and made it there at 76. Trick is to not run the whole time. I walked roughly 1/2 the time searching nets, garbage etc. Only ran once my wife had the Z's jump the trader fence and had to help her. She was stuck in one of the buildings waiting for me....kind of funny, she's not a fps kinda gal.
Definitely a higher stamina drain than 221, (I had my reservations after reading posts on here) but it was pretty manageable once we began our play though. I went through far more food clearing a gas station and preparing it for a temp base than running to the trader. IMO food should be an issue through the whole playthrough and at day two it looks like we are pretty well set...
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Talking about worst start... I start my game in Forest, it was 16K map. I get trader 5KM away from me. So I walk in that direction.. I was in Desert biome, there are vulture 3 of them flying on my head. I each enough of yucca fruit as I had no other food and no POI for 5KM to loot and find shelter. So Yucca give me Food poisioning level 2. So that reduce my hit point to 25, and my stamina generate is almost nil, I cross 5 KM desert alive. with 25 hit point ..killing about 30 zombie and 3-4 vulture. And yes thanks to yucca I didn't get dehydrated, but in desert I was over heated. and I cannot do anything to avoid it. I cannot melee zed with that stamina or health.
The good thing is it was fun then entrying those Dungeon POI. And I actually feel like I survive.
You got lot of things to do.. it is not fluid gameplay, it is called survival. If you think you are playing Zombie killing game, then this is not really that game. It is open world suvival where enemy will find you and kill you.
JaxTeller718
New member
My thoughts on A17 so far
I know you say you have been fortunate enough to avoid my negative posts MM, but I'm going to have to risk you reading this one so that I can formulate my opinions on this entire Experimental so far FROM MY PERSPECTIVE.
It is important to note that. MY Perspective. So while I want to make sure I stress that I would NEVER discourage anyone from ever buying the game, while I would never quit playing the game and I would never go on some crusade to say anything negative about the team or the Fun Pimps since I honestly truly think this team is one of the best teams in gaming today, and this game is one of THE best games in the industry today, I would be remiss if I did not note my complete disappointment in the direction of A17 in key areas.
The main reason me and my team started the Ravenhearst mod was at first to accentuate the strength of the base game. We wanted things harder, more complex, more rewarding and more terrifying. This isn't to say the vanilla experience was a bad one, it wasn't. Its to say that your game inspired creativity in me to take it to a new level. And we did pretty good for ourselves I think. We hit a portion of the community that often gets neglected and that is the player who enjoys overcoming insurmountable odds.
All of the news coming from A17 development at first was an overhauled new experience. One that would be a bit tougher, more in depth and one that promoted choices and consequences. My first week in A17 was TOUGH. It reinvigorated my passion for playing vanilla. There were some rough spots sure, but overall it was a dramatic improvement on the a16 experience. Hell i wondered if anyone even NEEDED my mod anymore at first.
Over time, just like with anything new the cracks were starting to show. Food was easily obtained if you knew where to look, bacon and eggs was all you needed, stamina and health were a non issue if you knew how to properly PLAY the game and not just try to rambo your way to iron on day 3. I STILL enjoyed the challenge even though i knew HOW to overcome them. The zombies poured in, they hit hard and provided a serious challenge even if you KNEW how to survive.
Since that first week you have picked apart almost every single challenging thing that first week offered up and replaced it with an experience that in the end is MUCH easier than vanilla A16. And it hurts me to say that because MM, you INSPIRED me to mod the game to begin with. In your videos, and your postings here you talk in such a familiar fashion as I do. So many of your posts point out that you are trying to introduce challenge, to force people to make uncomfortable choices and to re-introduce the tension we used to feel in earlier builds, but as God as my witness Joel what you write here and what I am playing are exact polar opposites. It almost feels like the builds aren't even yours.
You spent months coming up with that perks system, and it was mostly perfect. I could tell how proud you were of how much thought went into meticulously planning it out and what its advantages and disadvantages were. There were a few things that needed some work of course. MAYBE drop the forge to level 10, some other minor adjustments here and there. But to my shock the first instinct when it came to challengers of this new system was for you to rip out the entire system you spent months developing due to a group of people who refused to adjust how they play. A year and a half worth of changes.....almost GONE. All the rebalances and challenges now slowly backtracking on most of it.
The end result of this is it is going to look like a lot LESS work went into this Alpha on the surface to the common player because of all the removals. Think about it from a player who has NO Experimental expectations going from 16 to 17 in an instant. How much complexity has been added to the levelling/perks system in comparison to 16 other than removing quality, removing action experience and simplifying every single perk. To an extreme degree. Dozens of less choices, pages of choices just gone into one screen with 8 tabs.
Most will point to the AI on the zombies as the big game changer. And yes the work done is phenomenal. Night and day from 16 to 17. When you can FIND them. Never had I ever had to go out and actively LOOK for zombies to kill out of sheer boredom. The first 2 Exp updates were fine but this one? I'm BORED. To an extreme degree. Blood Moons have been gimped, wandering hordes halved and take longer to show up, gamestages are slow and do not ramp up near enough even on INSANE and THAT is Insane. I can spec in my area SO much faster now but WHY. You removed the challenge. I can BE Rambo on day 2, and to me that's not interesting or compelling gameplay. I have this huge map, these expanse forests, these massive pois and i have 4 zombies, a poi with reduced zombie activity and a iron club that can kill ANYTHING on day 4. ????
So now we are back to the game being a builder gamer with a side of zombies and a DASH of survival. Well remove the dash because in the next update it seems THAT is being nerfed too. At this point the default game may as well be Creative. When I can 2 shot normal zombies on day 2 that's a serious balance issue. Or at least it SHOULD be.
Farming and food is completely uninspired now. Often people would ENJOY the role of farmer for their group or as a nice side track. Now its plant it and forget it, and with SO much vegetation in the world there is little to NO struggle for any of it. And that is a true shame because farming is SUPPOSED to be VERY important to any survivalist. It's a way to sustain from the earth. But here its importance is dramatically reduced in favor of bacon and eggs dishes which are more profitable in every way. A player could NEVER farm and be OK and that's just wrong.
It was FUN living out of POIs for a few days until I could afford to build my own place. There is nothing wrong with forcing players to wait a short period of time to experience mid game building. It doesn't need to happen in week one. When your game goes gold, people like me are going to be tasked with keeping this game alive for decades to come. Its a task I look at with great honor and respect. And one way we do that is by slowing down progression a bit. People are going to have MUCH longer game plays. Now we have to wipe every week or so and yes it's frustrating to the common player and they want those forges and iron tools day one because they want to build right away. What happens when we take OUT the wipes? When the game you start is the game you play forever. THAT is when people will appreciate the slower opening game.
Builders did not like that though. THAT is ok too. Have a builder perk. Make it cost a bit more. BUT make it available day one. They can spec into it right away, get a forge and workbench and build build build, at the expense of having any day 1 perks in weapons. A Trade Off. That way people who wish to build can build, people who wish to scavenge and kill can do that. But removing ALL level gates? Making zombies scarcer? Reducing penalties on stamina? You are removing the opening and mid game and sending players straight to end game. And with all due respect you do not have enough content to support sending anyone to end game that fast. A handful of guns, some weapons and 3 bows? There should be DOZENS of weapon and tool choices. Goals to achieve at end game. Make a safe camp, build a refuge. Gather tons of weapons. Well you CAN do that now, but you can do it on day 4. What's the LONG TERM motivation to play a game longer than 30 days now?
I respect the hell out of you Joel. From your back story to your rise in your field. I agree with almost 100 percent of everything you post. You are deeply inspiring to people like me who have a vision and want to go out and achieve their dream. Which is why it bewilders me that the game I am playing today, with this update, seems SO far removed from anything your vision seems to have been in the years I have been a member here. I think in your heart you already know this but a lot of pressure from the shouting community has forced you to put that vision aside.
And before Roland tries to point out (again) that Experimental is ongoing and balance is being made all the time and it's not finished, yeah I know. But anyone can see the writing on the wall Roland. It is NOT ever going to slant back towards challenging. That ship sailed in week one and it got thrown out the window in favor of a more relaxed game style. You don't have to tell me to taste well done steak in order for me to reject it as inferior to medium rare. I think I know how i like my steak to taste.
I know you say you have been fortunate enough to avoid my negative posts MM, but I'm going to have to risk you reading this one so that I can formulate my opinions on this entire Experimental so far FROM MY PERSPECTIVE.
It is important to note that. MY Perspective. So while I want to make sure I stress that I would NEVER discourage anyone from ever buying the game, while I would never quit playing the game and I would never go on some crusade to say anything negative about the team or the Fun Pimps since I honestly truly think this team is one of the best teams in gaming today, and this game is one of THE best games in the industry today, I would be remiss if I did not note my complete disappointment in the direction of A17 in key areas.
The main reason me and my team started the Ravenhearst mod was at first to accentuate the strength of the base game. We wanted things harder, more complex, more rewarding and more terrifying. This isn't to say the vanilla experience was a bad one, it wasn't. Its to say that your game inspired creativity in me to take it to a new level. And we did pretty good for ourselves I think. We hit a portion of the community that often gets neglected and that is the player who enjoys overcoming insurmountable odds.
All of the news coming from A17 development at first was an overhauled new experience. One that would be a bit tougher, more in depth and one that promoted choices and consequences. My first week in A17 was TOUGH. It reinvigorated my passion for playing vanilla. There were some rough spots sure, but overall it was a dramatic improvement on the a16 experience. Hell i wondered if anyone even NEEDED my mod anymore at first.
Over time, just like with anything new the cracks were starting to show. Food was easily obtained if you knew where to look, bacon and eggs was all you needed, stamina and health were a non issue if you knew how to properly PLAY the game and not just try to rambo your way to iron on day 3. I STILL enjoyed the challenge even though i knew HOW to overcome them. The zombies poured in, they hit hard and provided a serious challenge even if you KNEW how to survive.
Since that first week you have picked apart almost every single challenging thing that first week offered up and replaced it with an experience that in the end is MUCH easier than vanilla A16. And it hurts me to say that because MM, you INSPIRED me to mod the game to begin with. In your videos, and your postings here you talk in such a familiar fashion as I do. So many of your posts point out that you are trying to introduce challenge, to force people to make uncomfortable choices and to re-introduce the tension we used to feel in earlier builds, but as God as my witness Joel what you write here and what I am playing are exact polar opposites. It almost feels like the builds aren't even yours.
You spent months coming up with that perks system, and it was mostly perfect. I could tell how proud you were of how much thought went into meticulously planning it out and what its advantages and disadvantages were. There were a few things that needed some work of course. MAYBE drop the forge to level 10, some other minor adjustments here and there. But to my shock the first instinct when it came to challengers of this new system was for you to rip out the entire system you spent months developing due to a group of people who refused to adjust how they play. A year and a half worth of changes.....almost GONE. All the rebalances and challenges now slowly backtracking on most of it.
The end result of this is it is going to look like a lot LESS work went into this Alpha on the surface to the common player because of all the removals. Think about it from a player who has NO Experimental expectations going from 16 to 17 in an instant. How much complexity has been added to the levelling/perks system in comparison to 16 other than removing quality, removing action experience and simplifying every single perk. To an extreme degree. Dozens of less choices, pages of choices just gone into one screen with 8 tabs.
Most will point to the AI on the zombies as the big game changer. And yes the work done is phenomenal. Night and day from 16 to 17. When you can FIND them. Never had I ever had to go out and actively LOOK for zombies to kill out of sheer boredom. The first 2 Exp updates were fine but this one? I'm BORED. To an extreme degree. Blood Moons have been gimped, wandering hordes halved and take longer to show up, gamestages are slow and do not ramp up near enough even on INSANE and THAT is Insane. I can spec in my area SO much faster now but WHY. You removed the challenge. I can BE Rambo on day 2, and to me that's not interesting or compelling gameplay. I have this huge map, these expanse forests, these massive pois and i have 4 zombies, a poi with reduced zombie activity and a iron club that can kill ANYTHING on day 4. ????
So now we are back to the game being a builder gamer with a side of zombies and a DASH of survival. Well remove the dash because in the next update it seems THAT is being nerfed too. At this point the default game may as well be Creative. When I can 2 shot normal zombies on day 2 that's a serious balance issue. Or at least it SHOULD be.
Farming and food is completely uninspired now. Often people would ENJOY the role of farmer for their group or as a nice side track. Now its plant it and forget it, and with SO much vegetation in the world there is little to NO struggle for any of it. And that is a true shame because farming is SUPPOSED to be VERY important to any survivalist. It's a way to sustain from the earth. But here its importance is dramatically reduced in favor of bacon and eggs dishes which are more profitable in every way. A player could NEVER farm and be OK and that's just wrong.
It was FUN living out of POIs for a few days until I could afford to build my own place. There is nothing wrong with forcing players to wait a short period of time to experience mid game building. It doesn't need to happen in week one. When your game goes gold, people like me are going to be tasked with keeping this game alive for decades to come. Its a task I look at with great honor and respect. And one way we do that is by slowing down progression a bit. People are going to have MUCH longer game plays. Now we have to wipe every week or so and yes it's frustrating to the common player and they want those forges and iron tools day one because they want to build right away. What happens when we take OUT the wipes? When the game you start is the game you play forever. THAT is when people will appreciate the slower opening game.
Builders did not like that though. THAT is ok too. Have a builder perk. Make it cost a bit more. BUT make it available day one. They can spec into it right away, get a forge and workbench and build build build, at the expense of having any day 1 perks in weapons. A Trade Off. That way people who wish to build can build, people who wish to scavenge and kill can do that. But removing ALL level gates? Making zombies scarcer? Reducing penalties on stamina? You are removing the opening and mid game and sending players straight to end game. And with all due respect you do not have enough content to support sending anyone to end game that fast. A handful of guns, some weapons and 3 bows? There should be DOZENS of weapon and tool choices. Goals to achieve at end game. Make a safe camp, build a refuge. Gather tons of weapons. Well you CAN do that now, but you can do it on day 4. What's the LONG TERM motivation to play a game longer than 30 days now?
I respect the hell out of you Joel. From your back story to your rise in your field. I agree with almost 100 percent of everything you post. You are deeply inspiring to people like me who have a vision and want to go out and achieve their dream. Which is why it bewilders me that the game I am playing today, with this update, seems SO far removed from anything your vision seems to have been in the years I have been a member here. I think in your heart you already know this but a lot of pressure from the shouting community has forced you to put that vision aside.
And before Roland tries to point out (again) that Experimental is ongoing and balance is being made all the time and it's not finished, yeah I know. But anyone can see the writing on the wall Roland. It is NOT ever going to slant back towards challenging. That ship sailed in week one and it got thrown out the window in favor of a more relaxed game style. You don't have to tell me to taste well done steak in order for me to reject it as inferior to medium rare. I think I know how i like my steak to taste.
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monkeyboy275
New member
It was a statement to trigger people like you.
skullpoker
New member
Granted, I don't read EVERYTHING before I post, but the build that was downloaded today was far worse than the build where Mod blueprints couldn't be crafted. Hopefully they put a new build out before midnight CST so I don't have to dig through the XML's to fix this nonsense.
I mean, TFP are supposed to be the Pro's here. Let's hope they live up to it.
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LjProdigy18
New member
Amen to this man. Exactly how I have been feeling. 300 levels. 3-6 months or more between patches....should not be reaching endgame before 1st blood moon. People cry for content, for updates, for more stuff because they are rushing thru the game in mere days. Slow that crap down. Make it a real challenge. True survival. And don't cave to the casuals or minecraft players. There are settings and creative for that. (And no the reverse isn't true for insane difficulty. Bullet sponges do not make things challenging).
monkeyboy275
New member
Thats pretty much what im talking about, people were looking forward to this build for so long and now many feel like it was not worth all the excitement at all. This gives a bad feeling about when and what to expect in the future. Thats why some are pretty frustrated right now. Especially since most really love the game and you get ♥♥♥♥ thrown at here in the forum for just stating things like that, often even from their team itselfe.
And before someone tells me to shut up and play again, note that i never said this is my opinion about the subjekt and it is completely irrelevant what i (or anyone else) personaly thinks about it. The anger and disapointment in parts of the playerbase are there, with or without me and people, especially devs, should at least try to understand where it comes from instead of bashing these players.
Alphado-Jaki
New member
Laughed a lot after read this line.
But good work. I appreciate you all.
MrSamuelAdam
New member
Yeah, I obv got the quest one.Finish the opening quest line and you get the location of one.
Or...for the cheat-y types...open your seed in the map viewer and see where they are
To open map viewer how do I do this and how do I know what a trader looks like on it? When I see those maps all I see are green, sand and snow and little lines lmao
LilMissNorti
New member
Zoom in...you will see the POI names and the traders.
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