PC Correct me if I'm wrong...

[AtomicUs5000]

This is just a variant of the whole digging zombies conversation with all the same arguments and accusations. Lol.

Indeed. Digging zombies won.

 

[Corky]

Not sure if vultures are quicker on horde night like zombies but maybe the devs can make vultures sort of OP on horde nights. They can get to you no matter what vehicle you have. This will discourage riding it out.

 

[Sydious]

This argument is so damn dumb no matter what title you give it. Do you people really need to be forced to play this way or that? If you don't like it don't do it. If you like it do it. What the hell is wrong with you people.

 

[Gamida]

If everyone would just wear the shock collars I’ve designed there would be no more horde avoidance ever.
Plus world peace.

It's not about wearing the shock collar. It's you standing there in your dominatrix outfit, fondling your whip and licking your lips.

That image was too graphic and now it is stuck in my head...

 

[RipClaw]

Indeed. Digging zombies won.

As a result, some players in A17 have stopped mining for fear of a wandering horde falling on their heads. Has actually happened to me before and wasn't funny. Even if this happens rather rarely, the relaxing character of mining has been damaged by the fact that every 5 minutes some stupid zombie wants my attention. Just annoying.

 

[Roland]

The good news is that “relaxing mining” is no longer being forcibly imposed on everyone....

 

[RipClaw]

The good news is that “relaxing mining” is no longer being forcibly imposed on everyone....

If you absolutely need risk, you have always had the possibility to mine the rocks on the surface. It has happened to me more than once that I was surprised by a dog horde while I was working on rocks with an auger. You could also have simply provided a mine with a large entrance gate and a "Welcome Zombies" sign if you wanted to have zombies in your mine. And if you needed an extra kick of adrenaline then you could have gone to the wasteland at night and mined the rocks there.

 

[OzHawkeye]

If you absolutely need risk, you have always had the possibility to mine the rocks on the surface. It has happened to me more than once that I was surprised by a dog horde while I was working on rocks with an auger. You could also have simply provided a mine with a large entrance gate and a "Welcome Zombies" sign if you wanted to have zombies in your mine. And if you needed an extra kick of adrenaline then you could have gone to the wasteland at night and mined the rocks there.

Were it possible to do, I could see a good "player choice" outcome being normal zombies can't hear you from more than, say, 10 blocks away (safe mining), but the BM can still dig and will tunnel to your underground base (so no "I Win" underground bases still).

 

[RipClaw]

Were it possible to do, I could see a good "player choice" outcome being normal zombies can't hear you from more than, say, 10 blocks away (safe mining), but the BM can still dig and will tunnel to your underground base (so no "I Win" underground bases still).

This would certainly be a desirable option but unfortunately it doesn't seem possible for the developers to control the noise generation in such a way that noises from under the ground are generally muffled. No matter if a noise goes through 10m rock and earth or through 10m air, for the zombies it is always the same.

One possibility would be to reduce the noise of the mining tools in general. However, some players might criticize that the zombies should hear it when you open a safe with a pickaxe. A tricky situation.

I understand that for pathfinding the developers had to give the zombies the ability to dig. But this forum was always so negative about players with underground bases. This of course doesn't help to accept it as necessary for pathfinding.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Were it possible to do, I could see a good "player choice" outcome being normal zombies can't hear you from more than, say, 10 blocks away (safe mining), but the BM can still dig and will tunnel to your underground base (so no "I Win" underground bases still).

Makes sense to me.

 

[RestInPieces]

If you absolutely need risk, you have always had the possibility to mine the rocks on the surface.

Can you seriously not tell the difference between risk and artificial risk caused by yourself? Like... seriously? Same applies to horror, jump-scares, adrenaline rushes and countless other similar concepts. Do you, for example, watch horror movies and do you think you would get the same effect from a horror movie you have actually produced yourself? Can you see the difference?

Not only do I see the problem as non-existent. Others have written that they don't see a problem.

Let me guess. The silent majority? Btw, didn't imply you are the only one with this opinion, that would be extremely unlikely. When saying "others don't" I mean just that, rather than "everyone else doesn't".

Madmole just wants to balance the availability of gasoline. But this has nothing to do with the horde night in particular.

As for gas, you only mentioned consumption but never how available it should be. Madmole wants to create a general balancing for the game and not for the hordes night. He wants you to mine oil shale so you have enough fuel to cover greater distances. This is not really an effort for me but something I do anyway to keep my auger running.

Yes he does, why does this have "nothing to do with the horde night" again? That's even how that discussion started btw.

That the zombies are faster in the dark was replaced by the fact that the zombies are slow during the day and fast at night. There must have been a reason why the developers changed that. Possibly even technical reasons to not have to constantly calculate for each zombie whether it should be fast or slow at this moment.Especially at Horde Night I can imagine this as an enormous computing effort.

It may as well be one of the reasons but, again, since we don't have access to their profiler, we shouldn't assume anything (unless you want to quote them on that of course).

I didn't assume anything but just list the proposals that have been made in the forum so far to solve the problem. You can look for it yourself if you want.

Yes I am sure it took one sentence for the ones that proposed them as well.

Ask Dimpy. He suggested that.

Don't have to, because it would be a silly question. When someone sells a concept and mentions a descriptive random detail saying "like, x10 speed", he is just selling a concept and that is what you should be looking at. Not saying "omg his concept is out of the question because I imagine that one detail he randomly mentioned would create problems".

Ask fataal how hard it is to get the zombies' pathing right so they can follow the player. To get in front of a vehicle they would have to calculate predictively where the vehicle is in a few seconds. Anyone who has ever dealt with these problems knows that it is not easy for a machine to see something beforehand.I know that things sometimes look easy from the outside but are extremely difficult to implement.

I'd like you to explain on what grounds you keep claiming that predicting a freakin small offset of the vehicle's vector based on its speed is one of the things that is "extremely difficult to implement". You don't need a neural network for this, just some first grade math. If you haven't dealt with this before then just don't make this claim because you heard the developers talking about something else being hard to implement.

Tower Defense doesn't say anything about having to go down with the tower. You can also see the whole thing so that you can retreat to a reserve position if the first base breaks down.
In my current game the first base didn't work as well as I hoped. I then withdrew to the roof of a neighboring building to protect my base. I killed all the zombies anyway. Does that also count as tower defense or should I have stayed in my base until my base is just a pile of rubble?

That's great, but you know they don't actually target your base? Anyway, as I said tower defense implies that you have to actually defend something - it's, you know, the concept of defense. If can just turn around and walk away or ride a vehicle there no actual need or reason for the "tower defense" part. As simple as that.

I just don't see anything that needs solving. If you want to fight the horde, do it. If you don't want it then switch it off. The number of players who don't switch off the horde and avoid it instead is likely to be low.
Let's say you would prevent players from escaping the horde or make it a lot harder for them. How would it affect your game? What would it do for you ? Would that change your game ?

I can say of myself that it would not change my game. I have always fought the horde in my base and as long as it is possible to fight the horde with one base without them destroying half the base I will continue. Once I retreated and changed the place of confrontation but never avoided the horde as a whole.

I've died in the horde night before, too. That is not the end of the world. Then you try to collect your backpack with your weapons and try not to die.

By the way, it could lead to a death spiral if the zombies are so overpowered that the player can't escape at all. I imagine a horde of night in which one dies constantly rather annoying than exciting.

You know what's worse than a death spiral? A conversation spiral. Because I've already explained extensively the answer to this question in the last paragraph of my previous post.

Now you're exaggerating. It's about the fact that there is more important things in the game that the Fun Pimps have to fix than something that only a few players bothers.

Again the typical "a few players are concerned with your problem / a lot of players have the same opinion as me". Support your argument with logic, rather than fictional arithmetics.

Until A17.2, player only had the choice between avoiding or fighting the horde. Now they have at least the option to disable the horde.

Uh, yes? That's actually a great thing that people can opt out. Because before that it was hard to argue that the horde should be something that is not optional. I already explained to a great extent why this would have merit. You don't have to understand my examples (I'd wager you didn't since you haven't actually replied on them, not saying this is your fault, may as well be mine, at any case, what we have here is a failure to communicate) - just understand that there is a viewpoint that believes just that. And as I pointed out in another post these "force other people", "use willpower", "this problem does not exist" stuff, is not your opinion on the matter itself, but rather your opinion of other people, how people should play (even if you don't get how they want to play) and outright dismissal.

Someone in a Let's Play that I'm following has imposed the rule on himself that he doesn't craft weapons or tools. He has created a problem for himself and has to solve it. He could deviate from it at any time. Nobody would stop him but he does not.

Yes, with enough willpower you can also create a game yourself and play it, in your imagination. Have you ever wondered what the concept of making a game is and why people make games, whether they are video games, tabletop, physical etc? But as I said above, you don't have to embrace or sympathize with my opinion, but if you want to try to discredit an opposing argument in general, you can't actually do that, without having fully understood the other's viewpoint.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

As a result, some players in A17 have stopped mining for fear of a wandering horde falling on their heads. Has actually happened to me before and wasn't funny. Even if this happens rather rarely, the relaxing character of mining has been damaged by the fact that every 5 minutes some stupid zombie wants my attention. Just annoying.

Stopped mining? What do these people do now? Just play the game day to day and never mine? I think that makes the game more of a struggle than worrying about a horde falling on your head. They aren't that fast at it. It takes quite some time and they prefer to dig directly overhead. Unless you are standing still for like an hour, they would also have to dig horizontally to match your path and get above you again.

It happened to me once. A pack of old-timers to rub some salt into the wound. It won't happen again because like many things in a survival game, you adapt to the threats.

If the slow digging isn't enough, here's a good tactic. Wait until a wandering horde comes. Kill them, then go mine. You will be safe, at least in Vanilla, for a long time until the next one.

 

[Shineblossom]

Not sure the point you are making here.Did I say something about removing fun for people?

Yes. Maybe some people like running away. It is stupid, but why take it away for literally NO REASON?

 

[RestInPieces]

This is just a variant of the whole digging zombies conversation with all the same arguments and accusations. Lol.

Well, they both come down to the exact same issue. Perhaps it can be distilled to whether subjecting yourself to something by choice, is the same as being subjected to something. Or solving a problem you have created yourself vs solving a problem you are presented with.

Fact is that 7DTD is already riddled with problems that are presented to you, which you have to solve. From simple examples like hunger/health/stamina having finite values and zombies being able to destroy blocks to more "complex" ones. If one can imagine the complete absence of this mechanism, one can probably appreciate its value. When one doesn't even try to understand its value, no matter whether it's actually valuable to them or not, then the discussion devolves to the same old accusations/assumptions...

Yes. Maybe some people like running away. It is stupid, but why take it away for literally NO REASON?

Maybe some people like to have to defend against the horde, so there's your reason.

 

[RipClaw]

Stopped mining? What do these people do now? Just play the game day to day and never mine?

They harvest the boulders. There's a difference if you fight with a few zombies in a confined space or in the open.

I think that makes the game more of a struggle than worrying about a horde falling on your head. They aren't that fast at it. It takes quite some time and they prefer to dig directly overhead. Unless you are standing still for like an hour, they would also have to dig horizontally to match your path and get above you again.

In my experience, they only dig right above you when they can't use a deeper point. And they don't dig horizontally until they're at ceiling level.

I once had the case that I was in the mine and heard zombies digging. I'm out of the mine looking for the zombies. I found them in a hole they dug and killed them. I didn't close the hole in the ground. Shortly after that I heard another zombie dig and it was exactly in the same place although I was already in another part of the mine.

For me the whole situation is more annoying than threatening because I have prepared myself accordingly. But some players are a bit jumpy and afraid. That may not be rational, but many fears are irrational.

It happened to me once. A pack of old-timers to rub some salt into the wound. It won't happen again because like many things in a survival game, you adapt to the threats.

I tried to build a defense that I don't have to care about anymore but nothing has worked yet. For example, I dug an entrance for the zombies and pointed a auto turret at that entrance. Unfortunately the zombies were too fast in the night for the tower to kill them all. I have also tried spikes but if I move too far from the entrance the zombies don't take the entrance but start digging.

I hope that the junk turret in A18 will give me the opportunity to build a defense where I don't have to constantly interrupt my work.

If the slow digging isn't enough, here's a good tactic. Wait until a wandering horde comes. Kill them, then go mine. You will be safe, at least in Vanilla, for a long time until the next one.

I don't even notice most of the wandering hordes. As already said, the whole thing annoys me more than it frightens me.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Yes. Maybe some people like running away. It is stupid, but why take it away for literally NO REASON?

So you turn on horde night to run and avoid it? That's fun? Why bother? Aren't there other things to do in the game that are more fun than that?

I'm sorry, but the fun you have avoiding the horde by running around should not be a basis to leave the horde nights the way they are. They weren't created for that.

It's not like they said, hey let's spend thousands of person-hours developing this crazy system just so people can run around and avoid it.

 

[meganoth]

For me the whole situation is more annoying than threatening because I have prepared myself accordingly. But some players are a bit jumpy and afraid. That may not be rational, but many fears are irrational.

Balancing the game for irrational fears? I know someone who is experiencing a (small) fear of heights coming on standing on one of the high-rises. Surely that should not lead to a rule that the treasure room should never be on the top of high-rises, right?

I hope that the junk turret in A18 will give me the opportunity to build a defense where I don't have to constantly interrupt my work.

I don't even notice most of the wandering hordes. As already said, the whole thing annoys me more than it frightens me.

Junk turret is probably not a solution for this as it stops working when you go too far from it. May I suggest that you work too loud (using auger, not speccing into stealth) if you are constantly interrupted from your work.

Annoyance is a valid reason in my book, more than irrational fears. But people are annoyed at different things, "meditating through digging" is not in the game because of design but merely an accident of early alphas.

I don't think the last word on this is said though until the zombie AI and spawning rules are in their final state.

Yes. Maybe some people like running away. It is stupid, but why take it away for literally NO REASON?

It would be fitting in the game if it included some risk or needed driving skills (some sort of mini-game you had to succeed in) or had to pay a lot of resources for it. But just avoid the horde without risk is really bad for a game that isn't a do-anything-you-like sort of sandbox concept game. If you look at it from a risk-reward balance aspect, there is no risk and nearly all the reward as you don't have any serious expenses.

So the reason is there, same as you are supposed to scrounge for food in the early game. Maybe some people like not having to look for food (which is actually not stupid but still no good for a game). They don't get to choose whether they are hungry or not either.

 

[RipClaw]

Balancing the game for irrational fears? I know someone who is experiencing a (small) fear of heights coming on standing on one of the high-rises. Surely that should not lead to a rule that the treasure room should never be on the top of high-rises, right?

You don't have to balance the game for that but you should accept that these fears exists. Small things can help. For example a defense that protects the player while he doesn't hear anything because he is working with the auger. Or mods that can dampen the noise.

Junk turret is probably not a solution for this as it stops working when you go too far from it. May I suggest that you work too loud (using auger, not speccing into stealth) if you are constantly interrupted from your work.

I actually have 4 out of 5 points in From the Shadows. However, the description text is somewhat unclear under which conditions this advantage works. It says that it is easier to hide in the shadows and that the noise is better muffled. But is both depending on whether you are in the shadow ? And if I switch on my helmet light then I am no longer in the shadow. Doesn't that matter ?

But regardless of that, the perk doesn't matter if you work with the auger anyway. Since the auger generates a lot of heat one gets regular visits from the screamer.

As far as the Junk Turret is concerned, I would have simply taken it with me. A permanently installed defense doesn't help me if the mine gets bigger and bigger due to the mining and I move further and further away from the starting point. So a dynamic defense would be helpful.

Annoyance is a valid reason in my book, more than irrational fears. But people are annoyed at different things, "meditating through digging" is not in the game because of design but merely an accident of early alphas.
I don't think the last word on this is said though until the zombie AI and spawning rules are in their final state.

It may not have been part of the original game design, but it was part of the game for a long time. You can't blame players for enjoying an aspect of the game that is available. Whether that was intentional or not.

 

[meganoth]

You don't have to balance the game for that but you should accept that these fears exists. Small things can help. For example a defense that protects the player while he doesn't hear anything because he is working with the auger. Or mods that can dampen the noise.

Agree. Did you see in MMs video that a new perception perk is in A18 that might actually warn you of dangers (and I think zombies were included in this). We'll have to see if this actually helps. My guess is you would see red dots appear on the compass like in clear quests.

I actually have 4 out of 5 points in From the Shadows. However, the description text is somewhat unclear under which conditions this advantage works. It says that it is easier to hide in the shadows and that the noise is better muffled. But is both depending on whether you are in the shadow ? And if I switch on my helmet light then I am no longer in the shadow. Doesn't that matter ?

But regardless of that, the perk doesn't matter if you work with the auger anyway. Since the auger generates a lot of heat one gets regular visits from the screamer.

As far as the Junk Turret is concerned, I would have simply taken it with me. A permanently installed defense doesn't help me if the mine gets bigger and bigger due to the mining and I move further and further away from the starting point. So a dynamic defense would be helpful.

Yeah, the description doesn't really make it clear. But you can easily test that noise and light do increment the yellow bar less if you specc into the perk. My guess is that the headlamp is just another source of "noise/light" that adds up. But it isn't in the XML as far as I can see, so who knows?

Screamers don't spawn helpers and should not dig if they can't detect you. If you are deep enough and you work silently enough (and maybe use NV goggles) it doesn't matter that they get spawned.

It would be an interesting test to find out the depth at which you can auger freely with 5 points in From the Shadow. Anyway, in A18 you don't need to switch between shovel and pickaxe anymore so steel axe instead of auger should be viable if you don't want to be detected.

It may not have been part of the original game design, but it was part of the game for a long time. You can't blame players for enjoying an aspect of the game that is available. Whether that was intentional or not.

No, but it means there is never a guarantee that it stays in and being used to it in previous alphas is often not a compelling argument for keeping it.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I am still thinking that zombies rushing in while mining is, or at least should be, a rare occurrence.

If you are using an auger, you would mining pretty quickly. Unless you are using the auger to drill out a large room and you start building right after, without checking things out on top first, they just are not going to get to you fast enough.

Otherwise, you are probably drilling out a tunnel, and like I said before, all that horizontal movement is only going to make them take longer to get to you. Not to mention, you will be moving through chunks, so that heat will be spread out and not as concentrated.

People have mentioned that this happens from time to time. It's usually shocking, unforgettable. However, for the people who have had this happen to them, I doubt that for many of them it has happened ever again. While a select few of those few might have given up on mining and stay on the surface, I would think that even more people figured out what they did wrong and mine a little safer now.

The ways this will surely happen:

1) Using an auger in one spot for too long without going to the surface to check things out periodically. Getting caught up in the moment and forgetting about your survival is player error.

2) Not taking care of holes from previous zombie digs. This is player error. It's equivalent to not repairing your vase but still expecting it to hold up the next horde night.

3) Mining too close to the surface with or without an auger. Doing so is player error. You're just asking for it.

Junk turret might be a bad idea in a hallway, though I don't know how accurate it will be until we use it. In a tunnel you are likely to mine for a bit, go back, pick it up, bring it closer to the end and place it, then continue mining. Repeat as necessary. If you are mining a tunnel, and happen to be mining it slowly enough for the zombies to actually catch up to you, when they do break through, it will most likely be some place in between you and the turret. It will be facing your direction. That could be a problem.

When I mine tunnels, I get the resources, but the tunnel becomes a new safe route. Being so, I want it to be safe, so I always make a ceiling of concrete... if not right away, probably the next time I run through it. There have been times when I zombies were digging above me as I can see it on the surface. They are never that deep because they are slow. However, these mining tunnels get longer over time and any zombies that might be in holes just despawn as I run back through them to the starting point.

The problem, for as little it occurs (or for as little as it should occur if you play safe), is so minuscule that it is ridiculous to even worry about making it easier on people.

Digging zombies was a very small enhancement to the horde night system, but it was an enhancement for the sake of horde night. So back on point, more features like this should be and probably will be worked on for future alphas... because the way it stands now, the horde night they envisioned and put so much work into bringing to us is immediately deterred by a few cheesy tactics.