PC Correct me if I'm wrong...

[OzHawkeye]

Right... so, I'm leaning more towards reward. It wouldn't take much to poll the online players... it does already obviously. I'm also thinking maybe having a radio transmitter block. If you stay on the entire duration and you protect your transmitter, an air drop full of good stuff and ammo arrives immediately after.

Ok, now you're talking!

That sort of mechanic I could get right on board with. I'm officially a fan of that idea.

 

[Roland]

If everyone would just wear the shock collars I’ve designed there would be no more horde avoidance ever.

Plus world peace.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

There are several possible explanations.
On a server you can't deactivate the blood moon if you don't run the server. You can log out before the horde but if no other player is logged in the time does not continue.

It may also be that the player doesn't know at all that you can deactivate the blood moon. The option was introduced with 17.2 as far as I know and not all players always read the release notes.

And it can also be that the player only wants to skip one horde but then do the next one. At the moment the game reacts a bit strange when you change the blood moon settings. Then the days when the horde comes can shift.

Rare cases that do not justify any work beeing put into by TFP.

People who wanna avoid the horde usually don´t join servers with hordes. Alone on the server exactly when it is horde night? Hardly happens, people usually join servers that are popular and crowded.

It´s not hard to find. You see a new menu, you look trough it to see what´s new there. People who don´t are usually very few. And they will use google if they can´t find a solution by themselves.

Only wanting to skip one horde is another very rare use case.

 

[Shineblossom]

But don't vehicles trivialize the game?
Correct me if I'm wrong but can't you simply outrun the duration of a bloodmoon on a motorcycle? I feel like every blood moon/horde is easily trivialized by motorcycles/vehicles in general.

The aim of the game is to survive, and if this the best way to survive a bloodmoon it seems almost stupid to not do it. Me and some friends are at day 30 on a 3 day bloodmoon cycle and the last bloodmoon completely destroyed our base (to the point of making me want to restart due to feeling like I squandered my time), but whats the point of doing that if I can simply hop on my bike and not need to ever worry about making a base?

IDK, seems like the idea of doing it is ruining the game for me, tell me there is some balancing/check in place to stop this from occuring?

Don't like the tactic? Don't use it. It is THAT simple!

If our base gets overrun, the first thing we'd do is to run away, not just wait there and let the Zeds eat us.

Hello no. Full Stalingrad, not a single step back. We fight trough the night, even if it means hitting "respawn", grabbing spare melee weapon and drop down into fray just to die few minutes later again.

The fact is, bases can be made to withstand the bloodmoon horde. There's like a whole bunch of youtube videos made by streamers doing so. Players here have done it. It just depends on how you build your base.

It can be easily done, and you do not even have to use those kind of "griefing" type of base. I am, to myself, proof, that Horde base can witstand a Bloodmoon Horde even trough pure brute strenght (high thick concrete/steel walls, turrets, spikes, eletric fence).

The player can still eliminate Hordes in the In-Game menu option.That doesn't really apply. This applies to when you have horde night active.

The player can still edit them out (effectively) in the XML's.

Why would you do that if you want horde nights?

The player can hop on a vehicle and outpace them.

Yep, this is a problem that needs solving for the game or a mod. It's not the same as using drugs/buffing drinks because gas is not a very valuable resource.

The player can load up on coffee and do the same.

That's fine I think... if it is even good enough with fixed zombie speed. Why not have some possible way to get away? As long as it costs and you have to prepare. The yield of such things should be reduced.

The player can go into fly mode and just hover above the Horde (in SP, or with appropriate MP privileges).

That's cheating, best left for cheaters or people just messing around and not for a serious game.

The player can logout on an MP server and avoid them that way.

Single player, not a problem. Multiplayer, this is a problem that needs solving for the game or a mod. Reward or penalty or both of some kind.

OR people can play the way THEY HAVE FUN IN THEIR GAME. Sounds cool, right?

 

[RipClaw]

Rare cases that do not justify any work beeing put into by TFP.

I also don't see any reason for the FP to put work into this to prevent players from running away from the horde.

Currently there are possibilities for players to skip or avoid a horde and that's a good thing. They should leave it that way and not try to force anyone to fight the horde.

 

[RestInPieces]

I also don't see any reason for the FP to put work into this to prevent players from running away from the horde.

Oh I don't know, perhaps for the reason of, like, actually designing an actual coherent game and not giving us random optional things to play with? For the same reason they have implemented attributes, needs, diseases, recipes that need materials, zombie attacks, debuffs etc etc pretty much anything else? Are all of these optional too?

And I keep hearing this about "work" and it is getting ridiculous. It requires almost zero work to do that. When they fix root motion which they would have done anyway and zombies are actually faster than the player in the nightmare speed, all they have to do is address the vehicle "problem", which they can do in extremely simple ways, like fine-tuning gas usage or have zombies track the vehicle path instead of following you. Work my ass.

Currently there are possibilities for players to skip or avoid a horde and that's a good thing.

And they are called "unchecking that horde box in the options". That's all the possibilities one should need. How about also making it possible to play a game where something has a sense of urgency too? Wouldn't that be nice.

 

[RipClaw]

Oh I don't know, perhaps for the reason of, like, actually designing an actual coherent game and not giving us random optional things to play with? For the same reason they have implemented attributes, needs, diseases, recipes that need materials, zombie attacks, debuffs etc etc pretty much anything else? Are all of these optional too?

Incoherent are the solutions to a problem that I consider as non-existent.

One solution was that the atmosphere becomes toxic during the blood moon horde but the LCB protects you for whatever reasons. And after that the atmosphere is breathable from one minute to the next. Wow, magic.

Another solution was that an EMP would knock out all vehicles. Even the bicycle, which works completely independent of electricity. But for some reason the electric traps still work.

The next solution was that the rain suddenly contained acid. But strangely enough, you can still use the water from lakes and pools afterwards.

Also that one changes the fuel consumption of the vehicles in the horde night is absurd. Or that the zombies suddenly run with 10 times the speed of player only because it is dark.

And I keep hearing this about "work" and it is getting ridiculous. It requires almost zero work to do that. When they fix root motion which they would have done anyway and zombies are actually faster than the player in the nightmare speed, all they have to do is address the vehicle "problem", which they can do in extremely simple ways, like fine-tuning gas usage or have zombies track the vehicle path instead of following you. Work my ass.

If that's so little effort to implement, you're free to build a mod.

The nice thing about 7 Days to die is that you can easily modify it yourself. There are mods that are much more difficult than the main game. For people who want a hard game these mods are ideal. And as soon as the workshop exists there will be more mods to cover all possible game variations.

And they are called "unchecking that horde box in the options". That's all the possibilities one should need. How about also making it possible to play a game where something has a sense of urgency too? Wouldn't that be nice.

Yes, people can switch off the horde.

Theoretically only these players now have a horde who want to fight them. Why invest more effort now to stop players from trying to escape? Just because you think the player should go down with his base if zombies overrun it ? Or because you're afraid that you won't follow your own rules?

As I've already written, it's very easy to make the whole thing harder for yourself. For example, you can pack all the vehicles into a box that you can't reach during the horde. And as you've already written, the zombies in A18 will be faster than the player at nightmare speed anyway. That's why running away will be much more difficult without a vehicle.

 

[RestInPieces]

Incoherent are the solutions to a problem that I consider as non-existent.

Yes, you consider it as non-existent, others don't.

One solution was that the atmosphere becomes toxic during the blood moon horde but the LCB protects you for whatever reasons. And after that the atmosphere is breathable from one minute to the next. Wow, magic.
Another solution was that an EMP would knock out all vehicles. Even the bicycle, which works completely independent of electricity. But for some reason the electric traps still work.

The next solution was that the rain suddenly contained acid. But strangely enough, you can still use the water from lakes and pools afterwards.

Also that one changes the fuel consumption of the vehicles in the horde night is absurd. Or that the zombies suddenly run with 10 times the speed of player only because it is dark.

Who even said that an EMP pulse (the sudden magic thunderstorm already exists in the game) would disable bikes and would not disable electric traps? Who said that the fuel consumption/availability would change only during the horde night? MM is already looking at fuel availability btw. Why would zombies have 10 times the speed of the player - they only need to be a little faster, which is what nightmare speed was for, but is currently bugged due to Unity's root motion. And different zombie speeds in different situations are already in the game as options, not to mention that zombies getting slowed by the light was already happening for most alphas - so it sounds to me like you are trying to debunk something through your wild random assumptions.

How is this discussion even productive when you assume random things and debunk what you assumed yourself?

If that's so little effort to implement, you're free to build a mod.
The nice thing about 7 Days to die is that you can easily modify it yourself. There are mods that are much more difficult than the main game. For people who want a hard game these mods are ideal. And as soon as the workshop exists there will be more mods to cover all possible game variations.

How quaint. "If it's that easy mod it yourself". Hadn't crossed my mind! I can respect contradicting feedback but I can't respect people who don't know what feedback means and still post in gaming forums. And in what grounds do you even claim that making zombies track vehicle paths (to get in front of them) or lowering gas availability/increasing consumption, will require "investing effort" or "take away resources from elsewhere"? Your imagination?

But in the end, as I said in my other post, it is not some kind of fringe request I or anyone should have to mod, it is something the game was advertised for. "Tower defense" - if you don't have to defend something and nothing is at risk it is not really "defense", do I have to further analyze this for you? so spare me the "then mod it" comments.

Yes, people can switch off the horde.
Theoretically only these players now have a horde who want to fight them. Why invest more effort now to stop players from trying to escape? Just because you think the player should go down with his base if zombies overrun it ? Or because you're afraid that you won't follow your own rules?

As I've already written, it's very easy to make the whole thing harder for yourself. For example, you can pack all the vehicles into a box that you can't reach during the horde. And as you've already written, the zombies in A18 will be faster than the player at nightmare speed anyway. That's why running away will be much more difficult without a vehicle.

I find it hard to believe that you can't understand the difference of having a problem presented to you that you have to solve, and already having the solution to a problem and just going through it. What's even more amazing is that the game already does this in other multiple different aspects - it wouldn't be an actual game if it didn't. In a more fundamental level, it's like saying "why isn't food optional? Anyone who wants to eat food can just do it, so why lose something if you don't eat?", "why aren't recipes free? We could gather materials voluntarily and build anything we want and anyone who wants to gather materials can just do that" and so on. "Oh, I got you! Could it be that you are afraid to follow these rules yourself and need actual downsides?". You got me Sherlock.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

OR people can play the way THEY HAVE FUN IN THEIR GAME. Sounds cool, right?

Not sure the point you are making here.

Did I say something about removing fun for people?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I also don't see any reason for the FP to put work into this to prevent players from running away from the horde.Currently there are possibilities for players to skip or avoid a horde and that's a good thing. They should leave it that way and not try to force anyone to fight the horde.

The best reason is that they added in a major component to the game that doesn’t deliver gameplay as intended.

What we are discussing has nothing to do with people who turn off the horde. It applies to people who want the horde and expect it to be what it was designed to be.

 

[RipClaw]

Yes, you consider it as non-existent, others don't.

Not only do I see the problem as non-existent. Others have written that they don't see a problem.

Who even said that an EMP pulse (the sudden magic thunderstorm already exists in the game) would disable bikes and would not disable electric traps? Who said that the fuel consumption/availability would change only during the horde night? MM is already looking at fuel availability btw.

Madmole just wants to balance the availability of gasoline. But this has nothing to do with the horde night in particular.

If you pick up the pickaxe and mine oil shale in the desert you still have as much gas as you want.

And since I do that anyway, I don't see it as an effort.

Why would zombies have 10 times the speed of the player - they only need to be a little faster, which is what nightmare speed was for, but is currently bugged due to Unity's root motion.

Ask Dimpy. He suggested that.

And different zombie speeds in different situations are already in the game as options, not to mention that zombies getting slowed by the light was already happening for most alphas - so it sounds to me like you are trying to debunk something through your wild random assumptions.

That the zombies are faster in the dark was replaced by the fact that the zombies are slow during the day and fast at night. There must have been a reason why the developers changed that. Possibly even technical reasons to not have to constantly calculate for each zombie whether it should be fast or slow at this moment.

Especially at Horde Night I can imagine this as an enormous computing effort.

How is this discussion even productive when you assume random things and debunk what you assumed yourself?

I didn't assume anything but just list the proposals that have been made in the forum so far to solve the problem. You can look for it yourself if you want.

How quaint. "If it's that easy mod it yourself". Hadn't crossed my mind! I can respect contradicting feedback but I can't respect people who don't know what feedback means and still post in gaming forums. And in what grounds do you even claim that making zombies track vehicle paths (to get in front of them) or lowering gas availability/increasing consumption, will require "investing effort" or "take away resources from elsewhere"? Your imagination?

Ask fataal how hard it is to get the zombies' pathing right so they can follow the player. To get in front of a vehicle they would have to calculate predictively where the vehicle is in a few seconds. Anyone who has ever dealt with these problems knows that it is not easy for a machine to see something beforehand.

I know that things sometimes look easy from the outside but are extremely difficult to implement.

As for gas, you only mentioned consumption but never how available it should be. Madmole wants to create a general balancing for the game and not for the hordes night. He wants you to mine oil shale so you have enough fuel to cover greater distances. This is not really an effort for me but something I do anyway to keep my auger running.

But in the end, as I said in my other post, it is not some kind of fringe request I or anyone should have to mod, it is something the game was advertised for. "Tower defense" - if you don't have to defend something and nothing is at risk it is not really "defense", do I have to further analyze this for you? so spare me the "then mod it" comments.

Tower Defense doesn't say anything about having to go down with the tower. You can also see the whole thing so that you can retreat to a reserve position if the first base breaks down.

In my current game the first base didn't work as well as I hoped. I then withdrew to the roof of a neighboring building to protect my base. I killed all the zombies anyway. Does that also count as tower defense or should I have stayed in my base until my base is just a pile of rubble?

I find it hard to believe that you can't understand the difference of having a problem presented to you that you have to solve, and already having the solution to a problem and just going through it. What's even more amazing is that the game already does this in other multiple different aspects - it wouldn't be an actual game if it didn't.

I just don't see anything that needs solving. If you want to fight the horde, do it. If you don't want it then switch it off. The number of players who don't switch off the horde and avoid it instead is likely to be low.

Let's say you would prevent players from escaping the horde or make it a lot harder for them. How would it affect your game? What would it do for you ? Would that change your game ?

I can say of myself that it would not change my game. I have always fought the horde in my base and as long as it is possible to fight the horde with one base without them destroying half the base I will continue. Once I retreated and changed the place of confrontation but never avoided the horde as a whole.

I've died in the horde night before, too. That is not the end of the world. Then you try to collect your backpack with your weapons and try not to die.

By the way, it could lead to a death spiral if the zombies are so overpowered that the player can't escape at all. I imagine a horde of night in which one dies constantly rather annoying than exciting.

In a more fundamental level, it's like saying "why isn't food optional? Anyone who wants to eat food can just do it, so why lose something if you don't eat?", "why aren't recipes free? We could gather materials voluntarily and build anything we want and anyone who wants to gather materials can just do that" and so on. "Oh, I got you! Could it be that you are afraid to follow these rules yourself and need actual downsides?". You got me Sherlock.

Now you're exaggerating. It's about the fact that there is more important things in the game that the Fun Pimps have to fix than something that only a few players bothers. Until A17.2, player only had the choice between avoiding or fighting the horde. Now they have at least the option to disable the horde.

Someone in a Let's Play that I'm following has imposed the rule on himself that he doesn't craft weapons or tools. He has created a problem for himself and has to solve it. He could deviate from it at any time. Nobody would stop him but he does not.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I disagree that it’s a waste of time and they have better things to fix. Improving the horde nights is and has been a major focus and will probably continue to be, whether people want that or not.

Even though they provided a way to change the days, the name of that game stands on the default 7 days until horde night. It is a very important feature for this game. Luckily for those who wish to turn it off can. If it were my game, I would say too bad... it defines the game too much.

Cops were made to explode for horde night, to weaken defenses.

What was the reason for reviving the ability of zombies to dig? People avoiding horde night underground.

They added spitting vultures for added difficulty during horde night.

Why had faatal done work on zombie AI and will continue to? Because horde nights and people finding easy ways to manipulate the AI.

What is the reason for the upcoming demolisher? People surrounding a base with a sea of spikes for horde night.

Why is MM suggesting that zombies run in front of and damage vehicles? Because vehicles on horde night diminish its intent.

It is in their best interest to always work on this... and even though they have major things to fix, this is something we are likely to see changes and improvements on through every alpha and probably even beyond gold.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Why has there always people that care how others play in a SP focused game (Yes it does have MP, but it´s clearly balanced on SP)?

How about minding your own business? Play like you want, and let others do that also.

I bet most people arguing to force the horde on to everyone don´t even play MP...

And yes there are people that do not have fun with the hordes. So yeah, if you wann force the horde for everyone you do take out the fun for those people. @AtomicUS5000

Also they just built in an option to turn the hordes off. I doubt they gonna even think about forcing the horde to everyone.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Why has there always people that care how others play in a SP focused game (Yes it does have MP, but it´s clearly balanced on SP)?
How about minding your own business? Play like you want, and let others do that also.

I bet most people arguing to force the horde on to everyone don´t even play MP...

And yes there are people that do not have fun with the hordes. So yeah, if you wann force the horde for everyone you do take out the fun for those people. @AtomicUS5000

Also they just built in an option to turn the hordes off. I doubt they gonna even think about forcing the horde to everyone.

And yet again, we are talking about for the players who have it on... could not care less about those who turn it off. This doesn’t apply to them obviously.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

So? Let them play how they want? If you have a server feel free to kick everyone who doesn´t play how you like it. Leave everyone else alone.

Why does this bother you so much how others play? Their own fault if they don´t like getting xp while wasting fuel.

 

[RipClaw]

And yet again, we are talking about for the players who have it on... could not care less about those who turn it off. This doesn’t apply to them obviously.

Even those who don't turn off the horde have different opinions about what a good horde is. There are many different ways to fight a horde, and eventually any change will mean that some players won't be able to fight the horde the way they used to.

What a horde looks like with a demolisher you might see quite well in the Darkness Falls Mod. There you can find the Behemoth Zombie. It's not the same model as the Behemoth that was planned for A16 but it also destroys blocks with one blow and has a lot of HP. It's not the same as an exploding zombie, but the Behemoth should do similar damage.

I honestly still have no idea how to fight this firecracker so he won't lay my base in ruins.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Even those who don't turn off the horde have different opinions about what a good horde is. There are many different ways to fight a horde, and eventually any change will mean that some players won't be able to fight the horde the way they used to.
What a horde looks like with a demolisher you might see quite well in the Darkness Falls Mod. There you can find the Behemoth Zombie. It's not the same model as the Behemoth that was planned for A16 but it also destroys blocks with one blow and has a lot of HP. It's not the same as an exploding zombie, but the Behemoth should do similar damage.

I honestly still have no idea how to fight this firecracker so he won't lay my base in ruins.

Understandable, and I do understand that. All I am saying is that it is a feature that isn't working as intended. If I turn on nightmare mode, I expect zombies to run faster than me. A problem that needs to be fixed. Likewise, if I turn on BM, I expect an event in x days that enhances the challenge that I cannot avoid unless there are specific preparations that allows me to. Not just simply own a vehicle. I don't want to play pretend like the problem doesn't exist. I did that for all of A16 with zombies that could not dig. While I think a "good horde" on horde night is one that I legitimately fear, others may not for some weird reason. However, it doesn't matter what I think is good, or anyone for that matter... they added the feature into the game with the intent of it being what I think a good horde is. It's not just coincidence either. It happens to be a great game idea for a voxel world.

I have no idea just yet how to deal with demolisher either. I hope it requires creativity to defend against.

 

[RipClaw]

Understandable, and I do understand that. All I am saying is that it is a feature that isn't working as intended. If I turn on nightmare mode, I expect zombies to run faster than me. A problem that needs to be fixed.

According to what I read, the problem with the nightmare speed should be fixed in A18. The problem is obviously a bug and it was intended that the speed should be higher than the speed of the player.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

According to what I read, the problem with the nightmare speed should be fixed in A18. The problem is obviously a bug and it was intended that the speed should be higher than the speed of the player.

Yes, that is correct... as so they should continue to work on fixing their intended horde night.

 

[Roland]

This is just a variant of the whole digging zombies conversation with all the same arguments and accusations. Lol.