PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

Melange said:
Me too. Actually walked away from some 'alpha upgrades' because the were not imo player friendly. And I don't suspect A21 is gonna be any more friendly. Livable? Sure, but even using that term indicates TFP messed up on our interpretation of player enjoyment, agreed? And as 'for the better', we'll have to see. Better for whom? But, its all moot. They gonna do what they gonna do, that's been proven. Now, if they'll just release the damned thing....
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Player enjoyment is a complex thing. To make an easy example: Players like weapons with huge damage. A naive improvement to a game would therefore be to increase the damage of all weapons. But the result would be that most players don't feel challenged and do NOT enjoy the game. The game has to be judged as a whole, not each feature in isolation, and that is what many players fail to do when they go from alpha to alpha.

Secondly players have different tastes. TFP has changed the feel of the game while they were adding and experimenting and with that they also changed the target group of players that would welcome all the changes they made. Just as an example, before they could add RPG advancement features they had to present a playable game, so the game was a lot more sandboxy and had no RPG advancement. That appealed to different players than the current game and the more RPG they added the less some old players liked the changes. But that doesn't mean that they failed with RPG advancement, it meant that their final target group of players is not exactly the same as the ones drawn to the game initially.  

You correctly say that "our interpretation of player enjoyment" was messed up if you just look at yourself and players having the same taste as you. But you overstate the case if you generally say alpha upgrades were not player friendly unless you specify exactly which group of players you talk about in regards to which change.

 
meganoth said:
I would never pay 8k for a monitor. 😉
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Was a time I'd never pay 3k for a computer. But I did. Many times over for decades.  8k for a nice big screen? well, I'd consider it. If I didn't have to upgrade every three years. Priorities.  QoL.  Oh, and a good comfortable relaxing gaming chair. Still not found one to suit my desires. But sitting on orange crates with an awesome view of the game world...perhaps priceless 🙂

 
Melange said:
True, we don't know. But it isn't going to be the environment we've all become acustomed to. Come back @Kalex when its released, and tell us how much you like the change. We'll chat again.
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I will for sure.  These changes to crafting are something I am looking forward to in A21.

 
meganoth said:
Player enjoyment is a complex thing. To make an easy example: Players like weapons with huge damage. A naive improvement to a game would therefore be to increase the damage of all weapons. But the result would be that most players don't feel challenged and do NOT enjoy the game. The game has to be judged as a whole, not each feature in isolation, and that is what many players fail to do when they go from alpha to alpha.

Secondly players have different tastes. TFP has changed the feel of the game while they were adding and experimenting and with that they also changed the target group of players that would welcome all the changes they made. Just as an example, before they could add RPG advancement features they had to present a playable game, so the game was a lot more sandboxy and had no RPG advancement. That appealed to different players than the current game and the more RPG they added the less some old players liked the changes. But that doesn't mean that they failed with RPG advancement, it meant that their final target group of players is not exactly the same as the ones drawn to the game initially.  

You correctly say that "our interpretation of player enjoyment" was messed up if you just look at yourself and players having the same taste as you. But you overstate the case if you generally say alpha upgrades were not player friendly unless you specify exactly which group of players you talk about in regards to which change.
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You said it well. And I don't disagree. But, reluctant at first to use mods, I embrace them now. So that I can create the play environment that suits me. Now, its human nature to push back against change. Many a company spends big money on how to change corporate culture. Gaming culture is a free for all. We don't like it? We will let the world know our feelings.

I can complain all I want. But with some savvy and a bit of experimentation, I can create the game environment I want. So complaining isn't useful, but modding is effective.

I have found a work around so that the base game still shines. Thankful that modding is still an option.

 
BFT2020 said:
I will for sure.  These changes to crafting are something I am looking forward to in A21.
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Nice. But I'm not looking forward to the changes as much as I need to change how I can craft. We'll be here. May be a helluva lot better than we anticipate.  It's the waiting that's palpable....come on TFP. Open up the sluice and let us have something real to she-dog about!

 
Melange said:
Was a time I'd never pay 3k for a computer. But I did. Many times over for decades.  8k for a nice big screen? well, I'd consider it. If I didn't have to upgrade every three years. Priorities.  QoL.  Oh, and a good comfortable relaxing gaming chair. Still not found one to suit my desires. But sitting on orange crates with an awesome view of the game world...perhaps priceless 🙂
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I bought a TV chair and crafted a wooden mouse platter/platform(?) for it that I can pull over the right arm rest. Unlike a gaming chair this chair does not look out of place in my living room.

 
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unholyjoe said:
that does explain it all. :)

so if the devs change things to up the ante to a survival game... you basically want an offset to make it counter the change... hmmm sounds like playing american football in reverse only mode. you will never win nor advance. :)
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No, I want things to make sense. I don't think that's asking a lot. And your analogy is nonsensical - If it were like football in reverse, neither side advances.

 
Old Crow said:
No, I want things to make sense. I don't think that's asking a lot. And your analogy is nonsensical - If it were like football in reverse, neither side advances.
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No-nonsense answer is that there does seem to be more glue and duct tape in loot. With bottles gone you actually get more useful items. When I was watching the streams during the Twitchcon I noticed how often they were finding empty bottles in loot and it was just laughable to me how much those things clogged up the loot tables pre-A21. You aren't going to have stacks of glue or duct tape by any means just from looting around but there does seem to me to be a bit more of those and more seeds and raw vegetables as well.

 
Roland said:
When I was watching the streams during the Twitchcon I noticed how often they were finding empty bottles in loot and it was just laughable to me how much those things clogged up the loot tables pre-A21.
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And I saw a video yesterday of someone running all over the place to find one glue instead of just crafting it. That's the problem when people only loot. They forget that crafting is part of the game.

And by the way, empty jars have never clogged up my inventory. What clogs my inventory are items that don't stack, but empty jars stack up to 125 of them, so they usually only occupy one slot.

 
RipClaw said:
And I saw a video yesterday of someone running all over the place to find one glue instead of just crafting it. That's the problem when people only loot. They forget that crafting is part of the game.

And by the way, empty jars have never clogged up my inventory. What clogs my inventory are items that don't stack, but empty jars stack up to 125 of them, so they usually only occupy one slot.
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Unless I'm mistaken I think Roland was referring to empty jars clogging up the loot table, not your inventory... rather than finding empty jars in every cupboard you may find something more useful.

 
RipClaw said:
And I saw a video yesterday of someone running all over the place to find one glue instead of just crafting it. That's the problem when people only loot. They forget that crafting is part of the game.

And by the way, empty jars have never clogged up my inventory. What clogs my inventory are items that don't stack, but empty jars stack up to 125 of them, so they usually only occupy one slot.
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Someone forgetting that they could just craft glue isn’t a problem associated with looting. It is simply a sign that the player is inexperienced. And Paradise got my point exactly. Containers have much more useful things in them now that empty jars no longer exist in the loot tables. My comment had nothing to do with inventory management and nothing to do with what some player may or may not remember about the game.  The alteration of the loot tables will affect all players— even non-looters because of what your buddies will be bringing home for you instead of one big stack of 125 bottles. 

 
ParadiseLostUK said:
Unless I'm mistaken I think Roland was referring to empty jars clogging up the loot table, not your inventory... rather than finding empty jars in every cupboard you may find something more useful.
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I would have to look at the contents of the loot table but what I loot from kitchen cupboards far more than empty jars is rotten meat and bones. To know if this will be different in A21 you would have to take a look at the modified and rebalanced loot table.

 
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