PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Damolann]

Also, his name is Shawn. Not Shirley....
 

Heh nice, an Airplane reference.   Just watched that again two days ago...

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

Heh nice, an Airplane reference.   Just watched that again two days ago...

Track down files of the Police Squad!

it is a tv series before the Naked Gun. Aged but still good stuff.

 

[Jinx_DG]

You could also have this little problem as a single player in A21. And there you don't have anyone who can supply you with better equipment. You have to either craft it, buy it or find it.

Balancing the game will not be easy. There are players who like to loot non-stop, but there are also players who like to build or spend time in the mine. The question that concerns me is, what is the player type that the balancing will be based on? How many days a week will I have to set aside my hammer and pickaxe to scavenge?

As a single player in the current alpha I have to... "either craft it, buy it or find it."

Hasn't every alpha been like this? Isn't that part of what "playing" the game is?  Balancing the game is Never easy, nor will it or has ever been perfect. Your concern with how it will be balanced between 2 focused based groups is shortsighted imo. There are no just non stop looters nor just builders/miners (for SP).  Non stop looters need to build/prepare for horde night survival. Builders/miners need weapons for horde night survival. Having magazines won't change that fact. As for which type of player balancing will be based on? The same as it's based on now.... Both. 

If all you want to do is build/craft and not loot you can play the game that way, if all you want to do is loot and not build/craft anything you can play the game that way too. Your survival expection would be low to none I'd think, but that's what this game is all about. Surviving. To survive, certain actions must be taken/carried out to improve your odds. How you play the game determines your survival odds. 

The game is actively trying to kill you. Does not matter what "type" of player you are, the game wants you dead. Magazines, Perks, Skills, Looting, Building, Mining, Crafting, Farming, ect are all ways to Improve the Survivalbility Odds. So yeah, you do have choices despite your claim that no real choice can be made. You choose how many days to set aside your hammer and pixaxe to scavenge. Just remember even with all the right choices and all the best odds the game wants you dead and at some point it'll get what it wants. 

It's not always that simple. Maybe you not only need better equipment, but you also need to finish the new base because the next horde is coming in two days and you still need resources.

If you simply go on a magazine hunt, you might end up with a half-finished base and hardly any ammunition left. And in the worst case you are still missing some magazines to finally have the better weapon. That's why balancing becomes even more important in A21.

Your concern for A21 Magazine balancing will no doubt be handled like previous balancing concerns, take weapon parts as an example, with ajustments as needed. You need to loot x number of parts to craft a better weapon. Do you go looting for needed resources to craft that better weapon or do you finish the base because horde night is coming? How do you or anyone else handle this conumdrium currently? 

And that's exactly the point. You have to be able to make a real decision.
 

If it is not possible to find the required amount of magazines to upgrade my equipment in the remaining time, then it is better to continue building in the hope that the base will be finished and still hold with the existing equipment. There is then no real decision one could make.

The same could be said about the current alpha. If I can't find the ... "required amount of magazines *resources* to upgrade my equipment then it's better to continueing building in the hope that the base will be finished and still hold with the existing equipment." 

In the current alpha, wouldn't the same conclusion you stated apply? That there is no real decision one could make? Your focusing on making the addition of magazines the "bad guy" that every issue you are concerned about can be applied to the A20, A19, A18...ect. 

 

[EggsAisle]

I think the community has been very involved with the development of the game, and therefore it is their passion that has pushed the devs to be involved in the forums themselves, and listen to the thoughts of the player base that has been with them throughout the build of the game that we all love.
This interaction has yielded a better game in the long run.

There was a time when Madmole would post on here almost every day. Answering questions, posting screenshots, occasionally arguing with someone who didn't like what they were hearing... it was awesome. And he kept at it for *years*, which you have to consider on top of everything else he was doing (the team was a good bit smaller then.) Say whatever else you will about him, the man is passionate about the game. I kinda miss those days, it hasn't been quite the same since A18ish. But it's completely understandable, he's got to be busier than ever with the company growing, future projects, life outside of games, etc.

 

[RipClaw]

As a single player in the current alpha I have to... "either craft it, buy it or find it."

This sentence was a reply to a post about how Learning by Loot in A21 affects co-op gameplay. When playing co-op you often have someone in the group crafting the gear for the other players.

Your concern with how it will be balanced between 2 focused based groups is shortsighted imo. There are no just non stop looters nor just builders/miners (for SP).  Non stop looters need to build/prepare for horde night survival. Builders/miners need weapons for horde night survival. Having magazines won't change that fact. As for which type of player balancing will be based on? The same as it's based on now.... Both. 

One would like to think that there are no "only looters" but unfortunately this is not so. Many new players play the game basically as a loot shooter. That's where my concerns come from. If the developers think that the majority plays that way anyway, they could adjust the balancing so that their progress is slowed down, which makes it even slower for everyone else.

I understand why people play that way. Because it is possible and it is easy.
 

You can loot every item you can craft and often even in better quality. What you don't find you can buy from the trader or get as a quest reward.

And who needs to build a horde base if he just has to punch some holes in the ceiling of a POI to make it a "I'll shoot the zombies from above and throw some Molotov cocktails down" horde base ? Have you ever watched the current series on the Youtube Channel of JaWoodle ? His current horde base consists of 6 blocks and he had to remove a few blocks from the stairwell. That's all it took to convert the ruins of the Eye Kandy factory into a suitable horde base.

By the way, ammo and Molotov Cocktails are common quest rewards you get for T1 and T2 quests. You just need to spam them and you have everything you need for a horde night.

Many have also given up farming. On the one hand because it is too tedious for them to harvest and replant everything and on the other hand because it is not necessary. You can find plenty of cans and often enough in an airdrop a food package which is enough for a long time. And if you really have a shortage you only have to make a hunting trip to the snow biome.
 

In the current alpha, wouldn't the same conclusion you stated apply? That there is no real decision one could make? Your focusing on making the addition of magazines the "bad guy" that every issue you are concerned about can be applied to the A20, A19, A18...ect. 

No, in the current alpha version it is different than it will probably be in A21 based on the information we have. Whether I loot, mine resources or build, I get XP that results in skill points. I can then use these to unlock new recipes or to increase the quality of what I can craft. For example, if I build a base, I usually get enough skill points to get Advanced Engineering to level 3, which unlocks almost all traps.

In A21, the perks no longer unlock recipes and I either have to find the required magazines for the traps beforehand or I have to find them later. So building or mining doesn't do anything for me anymore in terms of what I can craft.
 

I'm not making anyone the bad guy here, I just wanted to remind the developers looting is not everybody's favorite activity. Players who like to build or spend time in the mine also loot, only they loot less and accordingly their progress in A21 will be slower. It just shouldn't be too slow.
 

 

[beerfly]

There was a time when Madmole would post on here almost every day. Answering questions, posting screenshots, occasionally arguing with someone who didn't like what they were hearing... it was awesome. And he kept at it for *years*, which you have to consider on top of everything else he was doing (the team was a good bit smaller then.) Say whatever else you will about him, the man is passionate about the game. I kinda miss those days, it hasn't been quite the same since A18ish. But it's completely understandable, he's got to be busier than ever with the company growing, future projects, life outside of games, etc.

Trust me, he reads most of what we post here and is happy, for how further the game goes, and how much we enjoy it. 

 

[meganoth]

Yeh I guess people have different experiences so balancing around everyone is tough! I always find, whether solo or in a group, I find enough looting, food from traders / vending machines / birds nests or wild animals to only ever really struggle for the first day or two. Usually swimming in cans and boiled meat after that! But yeh I appreciate it's not the same for everyone.

Edit: I'll also add, just to throw an extra point on the fire to be annoying, even though late game food offers some buffs there's only a few options worth taking and a lot of food ends up being redundant. Having a mechanic where food variety was important would help use more of the game's assets for longer. Just my $0.02.

Personally I don't think adding proteins and carbs alone would make the game better (though I don't have actually played with such a system). Essentially it is just adding another simple bar to hunger and thirst to fill. More memorizing which food helps which bar. Potentially another inventory slot used up for your food/water as well.

The few options to take late game would be apparent very fast as well. I would assume most players would select a food with somewhat balanced carbs and proteins and just accept to overeat in one category to be able to take just one food with you. Others would just take two "specialist" food with them and always eat one of each. The determination what to use for food though would be still static, unchangeable and once done, worth no thought anymore.

It could be made more interesting by adding a dynamic mechanism like eating high carb food while being higher on carb than protein would even diminish the protein bar and vice versa. That would make it more important for the player to always eat food that mainly increases the lower of the two bars. And overating on one of the categories should result in some debuff or disadvantage.

Now you would actually need to think a second before you eat something. Anything less and you just adapt once and always make the same moves in the same static minigame.

And I can predict what TFP will be saying to that: Too late in development to replace a system they are satisfied with with another one. And that such a system would be perfect for a mod. (Though are they satisfied internally with the food system? I assume they are but I don't know for sure)

 

[Guest]

Personally I don't think adding proteins and carbs alone would make the game better (though I don't have actually played with such a system). Essentially it is just adding another simple bar to hunger and thirst to fill. More memorizing which food helps which bar. Potentially another inventory slot used up for your food/water as well.

The few options to take late game would be apparent very fast as well. I would assume most players would select a food with somewhat balanced carbs and proteins and just accept to overeat in one category to be able to take just one food with you. Others would just take two "specialist" food with them and always eat one of each. The determination what to use for food though would be still static, unchangeable and once done, worth no thought anymore.

It could be made more interesting by adding a dynamic mechanism like eating high carb food while being higher on carb than protein would even diminish the protein bar and vice versa. That would make it more important for the player to always eat food that mainly increases the lower of the two bars. And overating on one of the categories should result in some debuff or disadvantage.

Now you would actually need to think a second before you eat something. Anything less and you just adapt once and always make the same moves in the same static minigame.

And I can predict what TFP will be saying to that: Too late in development to replace a system they are satisfied with with another one. And that such a system would be perfect for a mod. (Though are they satisfied internally with the food system? I assume they are but I don't know for sure)

Appreciate the thought out response!

Yeh it would have to be a total rework, with new mechanics, balancing, buffs and debuffs etc however as we've got new assets, animations, mechanics etc with the water rework, I just wondered whether it was on the table for food too.

And I can predict what TFP will be saying to that: Too late in development to replace a system they are satisfied with with another one. And that such a system would be perfect for a mod. (Though are they satisfied internally with the food system? I assume they are but I don't know for sure)

That was all my question was really - are they happy with the food system for gold? Or are their discussions around making any significant changes?

 

[meganoth]

This sentence was a reply to a post about how Learning by Loot in A21 affects co-op gameplay. When playing co-op you often have someone in the group crafting the gear for the other players.

One would like to think that there are no "only looters" but unfortunately this is not so. Many new players play the game basically as a loot shooter. That's where my concerns come from. If the developers think that the majority plays that way anyway, they could adjust the balancing so that their progress is slowed down, which makes it even slower for everyone else.

I understand why people play that way. Because it is possible and it is easy.
 

You can loot every item you can craft and often even in better quality. What you don't find you can buy from the trader or get as a quest reward.

And who needs to build a horde base if he just has to punch some holes in the ceiling of a POI to make it a "I'll shoot the zombies from above and throw some Molotov cocktails down" horde base ? Have you ever watched the current series on the Youtube Channel of JaWoodle ? His current horde base consists of 6 blocks and he had to remove a few blocks from the stairwell. That's all it took to convert the ruins of the Eye Kandy factory into a suitable horde base.

By the way, ammo and Molotov Cocktails are common quest rewards you get for T1 and T2 quests. You just need to spam them and you have everything you need for a horde night.

Many have also given up farming. On the one hand because it is too tedious for them to harvest and replant everything and on the other hand because it is not necessary. You can find plenty of cans and often enough in an airdrop a food package which is enough for a long time. And if you really have a shortage you only have to make a hunting trip to the snow biome.
 

No, in the current alpha version it is different than it will probably be in A21 based on the information we have. Whether I loot, mine resources or build, I get XP that results in skill points. I can then use these to unlock new recipes or to increase the quality of what I can craft. For example, if I build a base, I usually get enough skill points to get Advanced Engineering to level 3, which unlocks almost all traps.

In A21, the perks no longer unlock recipes and I either have to find the required magazines for the traps beforehand or I have to find them later. So building or mining doesn't do anything for me anymore in terms of what I can craft.
 

I'm not making anyone the bad guy here, I just wanted to remind the developers looting is not everybody's favorite activity. Players who like to build or spend time in the mine also loot, only they loot less and accordingly their progress in A21 will be slower. It just shouldn't be too slow.
 

What would you consider the lowest loot effort the devs have to consider for balancing?

One quest per day (considering that you can always take a lower than max quest and ulitmately can select between almost 25 quests to find one with "hardware store or similar" written all over it) ? A quest every two days? Every 3 days? Once a week?

 

[meganoth]

Appreciate the thought out response!

Yeh it would have to be a total rework, with new mechanics, balancing, buffs and debuffs etc however as we've got new assets, animations, mechanics etc with the water rework, I just wondered whether it was on the table for food too.

That was all my question was really - are they happy with the food system for gold? Or are their discussions around making any significant changes?

Roland may know more. I can only say that all indications I've seen point to them being satisfied with the system:

1) They added recipes to the system in A18 I think, madmole even asked the forum to send him recipes they could add. That would have been the point to make it more complex if they wanted.

2) Unlike the general perception they don't overhaul systems again and again unless there is a clear indication such a system is not working. The food system is basic but generally working well. They have said that overabundance of food in late and even mid game is correct, food should be a solved problem then.

3) vanilla is the introduction game for beginners and there are lots of beginners who find it hard to get enough food in the first days. They may not be keen to complicate that system even though the fault is mostly on beginners who can't be bothered to read the in-game journal.

4) If my memory isn't faulty here TFP also has said on occasion that they are satisfied with the "amount" of survival in the game, as a genre mix it doesn't need survival mechanisms as intricate as a pure survival game.

 

[RipClaw]

What would you consider the lowest loot effort the devs have to consider for balancing?

One quest per day (considering that you can always take a lower than max quest and ulitmately can select between almost 25 quests to find one with "hardware store or similar" written all over it) ? A quest every two days? Every 3 days? Once a week?

I would say one quest per day would be fair if you can craft a crucible by day 60. I just assume here that you will find on average one Forge Ahead magazine per quest.

As far as I know, the crucible is the last item to be unlocked in the Forge Ahead magazine. I don't know if the crucible is unlocked at 75 magazines or already at 60 or so, because there are no quality levels.
 

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

Trust me, he reads most of what we post here and is happy, for how further the game goes, and how much we enjoy it. 

But God Dammit I want @madmolehere to yell at me….

Track down files of the Police Squad!

it is a tv series before the Naked Gun. Aged but still good stuff.

@maxousara you don’t like the naked gun?

You’re a monster.

 

[meganoth]

I would say one quest per day would be fair if you can craft a crucible by day 60. I just assume here that you will find on average one Forge Ahead magazine per quest.

As far as I know, the crucible is the last item to be unlocked in the Forge Ahead magazine. I don't know if the crucible is unlocked at 75 magazines or already at 60 or so, because there are no quality levels.
 

I consider myself a "normal" or "balanced" player and I would guess I am somewhere between 1.5 and 2 quests per day on average so that doesn't seem too far off. (Though am I really normal here? I am normal in regards to my co-players at least who would average about the same)

If someone then targets specific recipes and succeeds in selecting fitting quests in say 1/3rd of days and also uses quest rewards and dukes to get the right magazines at the trader when available I would assume he would be at the same magazine level or even farther than I would be for that specific magazine. And naturally far behind me in other magazines as I would not need to specialize that much.

One unknown variable in this is though what the new meta will be for magazine shopping. Will the new "normal" be that everyone targets hardware shops (which would be rather bad for you as the game would be balanced accordingly) ? Or will Joe Random target gas stations, weapon and hardware shops with equal priority? Or maybe not target anything at all most of the time? My guess is that weapon shops will be the top priority for most players.

 

[Gamida]

But God Dammit I want @madmolehere to yell at me….

@maxousara you don’t like the naked gun?

You’re a monster.

The Naked Gun is just the film version of the TV show Police Squad.

 

[Xeen]

He said DX12 compatibility was up to Unity. He never said that using more threads was up to Unity. He did say that it wasn't his first priority on how to spend his time because he would rather work on solutions that will improve performance for everyone rather than invest the type of time necessary to switch the game to using more threads. It's not even a decision he would make by himself. It would be up to the owners to allocate resources and time to doing that.

You said this while quoting him where he literally said that his focus is on improvements to help all rather than improvements to help the few of "us guys". He never said it couldn't be done. He was telling you he won't do it unless that is what he is directed to do by the owners.

I was poking him in the ribs, being intentionally dense, it's kinda obvious.
 

I totally get wanting to have the game run the best as it can on your big rig- but as part of the potato crew, I sure hope they work on optimizations that everyone can benefit from first, rather than making making us poor folks/cheapskates feel pushed toward getting a new CPU..

The potato crew always gets it's due, it's the big rig crew that always gets the shaft.

That reminds me, how do the devs know if the game will run on all those potatoes? Do they go out and buy a potato off of craigslist and put the game on it to see if it will run? gogo gadget potato!

 

[Roland]

Roland may know more.

As far as I know they will just continue balancing and adjusting the current food system until they get it where they want it. A21 seems to have fewer canned food in loot and more seeds which should push players to grow their own food more. But you can still hunt for plenty of meat. Lowering the loot % seems to have a much more dramatic effect on progression speed and survivability in A21.

 

[Laz Man]

One unknown variable in this is though what the new meta will be for magazine shopping. Will the new "normal" be that everyone targets hardware shops (which would be rather bad for you as the game would be balanced accordingly) ? Or will Joe Random target gas stations, weapon and hardware shops with equal priority? Or maybe not target anything at all most of the time? My guess is that weapon shops will be the top priority for most players.

Those crack a book POIs are certainly honey pots.  However, if it's too OP, I wouldn't be surprised to see alittle reduction of lootable containers, etc.

In my current playthrough, I haven't gone out of my way to find a crack a book POI yet, but don't feel my crafting magazine progression is too slow.

 

[Laz Man]

No, in the current alpha version it is different than it will probably be in A21 based on the information we have. Whether I loot, mine resources or build, I get XP that results in skill points. I can then use these to unlock new recipes or to increase the quality of what I can craft. For example, if I build a base, I usually get enough skill points to get Advanced Engineering to level 3, which unlocks almost all traps.

I can empathize as the old A20 crafting progression was certainly faster than what we now have in A21.  

Personally speaking, the old method of recipe unlocks through perks felt more like a safety net alternative if RNG didn't bless the player.

Remember the old Forge Ahead book gate?  Finding or not finding that book was way too important and impacted the player experience too severely.

Although crafting progression is slower in some cases, it should be alot smoother and immersive.  I personally prefer scavenging the remnants of the world for knowledge of the past versus abstractly learning recipes by pumping skill points down a particular attribute tree.  I am hopeful the majority will enjoy the change.  For those skeptical, I hope they at least give it a try with an open mind.

 

[Damolann]

Track down files of the Police Squad!

it is a tv series before the Naked Gun. Aged but still good stuff.

I own the dvd's for all of that.  Police Squad was a pain getting because it was almost always out of stock a few  years ago when I wanted it but eventually I got a copy.

 

[RipClaw]

I can empathize as the old A20 crafting progression was certainly faster than what we now have in A21.  

My main concern is not that progress is slower. As long as I have the feeling that I can keep up with the gamestage, I'm happy.

But the fact that the Fun Pimps have made looting the most important activity and the only one that seems to have any relevance leaves a bad taste.

It reminds me of A17 Experimental before the XP for looting, mining and building were balanced. Back then, you only got really large amounts of XP by killing zombies, and then everyone just went out and killed as many zombies as possible. Screamer hordes farming was very popular.

Personally speaking, the old method of recipe unlocks through perks felt more like a safety net alternative if RNG didn't bless the player.

You can look at it this way or that it gives you the freedom not to have to loot a whole city just to be able to cook bacon and eggs. It is not surprising that one of the first points almost always goes into Master Chef.

Remember the old Forge Ahead book gate?  Finding or not finding that book was way too important and impacted the player experience too severely.

Yes, and some players still tell stories about how they haven't found the book in a playthrough and they had to adapt. On the one hand, it's good that this can't happen anymore, but on the other hand, an important element for replayability is lost. You never know when you will find something important or not.

Although crafting progression is slower in some cases, it should be alot smoother and immersive.  I personally prefer scavenging the remnants of the world for knowledge of the past versus abstractly learning recipes by pumping skill points down a particular attribute tree.  I am hopeful the majority will enjoy the change.  For those skeptical, I hope they at least give it a try with an open mind.

I don't know if it's immersive that you just have to read a certain number of magazines to master a skill. In reality, it always takes a combination of knowledge and experience.

If a player likes looting, he will surely enjoy it. But looting is not everyone's favorite activity.

I'll definitely try it, but I'm not afraid to mod the game if I feel I'm not making enough progress with my play style to keep up with the gamestage.

In the YouTube comments you can often read that players will wait for mods like Undead Legacy. It seems to some that the Fun Pimps have broken the game and the mod developers are fixing it.