PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Roland]

wow what a childish answer I have 1,5k hours of playtime I know how to play. but I am not nerdypoling a dog it's dumb. I won't cheese the AI cause that has nothing to be with being good. also I made a bug report about the spikes. they are changed and in a very bad way

It was childish but this is the only manner in which Snowdog can still be childish so we give him a bit of slack….
 

You didn’t mention the difficulty level you were playing, your hydration level, whether you had any debuffs like infection or fatigue, whether you were encumbered, wearing any heavy armor, what weapon you were using, and whether you constantly run everywhere or not. All of these affect stamina levels, drop rate, and replenish rate. Just saying that the stamina in the game is set too hard really gives no basis for meaningful discussion. 
 

In the first few days I mix it up between bow and club because that preserves quite a bit of stamina. I play on warrior difficulty which means that if I am confronted by three enemies I know I won’t have enough stamina to just go in and kill all three in quick succession. But if I play on default difficulty I could kill all three easily with my existing stamina.

I don’t run everywhere. When I see some zombies coming towards me I walk to meet them and then have plenty of stamina to use a club. Are you doing power attacks predominately? I only use power attacks when I’ve softened up the enemy a bit and I’m pretty sure the power attack will finish it off. If I’m fighting multiple enemies then I save my power attack for the last one.  
 

These are things even veterans can think about in how they play because often we get into habits that worked in earlier versions but don’t work now. 
 

There is an option for you btw.  Once in game press F1 and then dm then ESC and finally Q. Stamina and health and dogs even will be no more problem.

In all seriousness, you could reduce the difficulty you are playing on for the first day or two and then up it again for Day 3 onward. That would give you a more fair chance against dogs you meet on Day 1 or 2. Once you have some padded armor crafted and equipped you can usually kill a dog before it can kill you. 

 

[Laz Man]

house_old_mansard_03.1991

well I was out in the open so no car to jump on and who can build himself a pipe weapon and got ammo after 5 minutes?

house_old_mansard_03 is a tier 3 POI.  Not a POI most new spawns should go into.  I believe there are plans in the future to be able to tell the difficulty of a POI when a player wanders in when not on a quest which should be helpful for players who have never played a specific POI yet and/or likes to explore POIs but necessarily on quests only.

 

[SnowDog1942]

It was childish but this is the only manner in which Snowdog can still be childish so we give him a bit of slack….
 

Thanks dad!

 

[BFT2020]

wow what a childish answer I have 1,5k hours of playtime I know how to play. but I am not nerdypoling a dog it's dumb. I won't cheese the AI cause that has nothing to be with being good. also I made a bug report about the spikes. they are changed and in a very bad way

If you got 1.5k hours into the game, you should already have an understanding how stamina works in the game.  So you got 2 options:

Option 1 - understand that at early game, you can’t do a lot of things at once.  Conserve your stamina, never let it completely deplete, and always have a path backwards to go to disengage from the fight and recover stamina.

Option 2 - mod the game to reduce the stamina usage.  It’s not hard to do.

As for the dogs, there are signs before you come across them so always be alert.  The developers don’t want the game to be easy at the beginning, they want it hard.  If you hear the growl at the early game, turn around and run away (See option 1).  Fighting the dogs in the open or in a POI at early game is an easy way to get wrecked or kill.  Outsmart them if you want to fight them

 

[Diragor]

You didn’t mention the difficulty level you were playing, your hydration level, whether you had any debuffs like infection or fatigue, whether you were encumbered, wearing any heavy armor, what weapon you were using, and whether you constantly run everywhere or not. All of these affect stamina levels, drop rate, and replenish rate. Just saying that the stamina in the game is set too hard really gives no basis for meaningful discussion.

well I was naked, no debuffs and I used the bone knife

edit: uhm one harder than warrior don't know what it's called again xD

 

[unholyjoe]

well I was naked, no debuffs and I used the bone knife

he is referring to what difficulty is the game level.. nomad, warrior etc....

 

[Diragor]

If you got 1.5k hours into the game, you should already have an understanding how stamina works in the game.  So you got 2 options:

Yeah I understand it and I hate it xD thats why I asked if there is a chance to get a better stamina system than just the basic stuff. When your stamina is on 0 and you're still using it, it should burn up your food and water. that would be a great way of designing it

 

[Roland]

Yeah I understand it and I hate it xD thats why I asked if there is a chance to get a better stamina system than just the basic stuff. When your stamina is on 0 and you're still using it, it should burn up your food and water. that would be a great way of designing it

Except that you really seem to want to just do everything without needing to manage anything. So your fix would really only lead you back here to complain that the game is always sucking our food and water dry too often. Just enable god mode and be done with it. You aren’t looking for a game where you must manage your stamina. You just want to be able to mine, chop, whack, sprint, and jump all day long without any interruption. This is not that type of game and isn’t going to be turned into one if your goal was to suggest that to the designers. I don’t think it would even dawn on them to make an option for that. 
 

Modding is going to be your friend. Also I think one above warrior is probably not the setting you want as it is going to deplete most of your stamina killing one enemy with melee weapons and no dog is going to die to a bone knife attack. The difficulty settings mainly increase enemy HP. So try default difficulty at least for days 1&2 and you’ll find you have plenty of stamina to kill things. 

 

[Gamida]

Not saying there was any at this house but if I notice anything dog related (doghouse, carrier cage) I avoid it lol.

As for jumping on cars as far as I remember I have done that and the damn thing followed me up there.

 

[Jost Amman]

Yeah I understand it and I hate it xD thats why I asked if there is a chance to get a better stamina system than just the basic stuff. When your stamina is on 0 and you're still using it, it should burn up your food and water. that would be a great way of designing it

No, seriously, 1.5K hours and you're still playing like this??  :suspicious:

Most people who get killed by dogs/wolves are the ones who are always running around all the time: if you run all the time, you lose stamina left for the fight, PLUS you also have little to no time to hear the warning growl of the wolf/dog until you find yourself face to face with the animal.

I'm really disappointed with you @Diragor!

I expected more from you!  :nono:

 

[thecapotek]

No, you're right... currently we have no real goal/story but the "goal" to stay alive.

Problem is, the story is the last one that can be added, since you can only have a story after you add NPCs (not only traders), you can only have a story after you add Bandits (they're working on the first iteration right now) and finally you can add a story only after all the game mechanics are where the devs think they should be.

An educated guess would be at least two more years of development before we can see any of that.

I don't think the Devs know what they actually want to see. The game mechanics have been changed many times only to be reverted back or changed again, with no clear long-term goal. Instead of working on the game as a whole, they developed this project in pieces. Why did they wait so many years before trying to add a goal to the game (bandits and NPCS as you mentioned)? It's not like 7TDT was released yesterday, it's been out for a *long* time and they never bothered to add a real meaning to the gameplay.
The game wasn't polished then and it still isn't now so it's not even that.

 

[meganoth]

I don't think the Devs know what they actually want to see. The game mechanics have been changed many times only to be reverted back or changed again, with no clear long-term goal. Instead of working on the game as a whole, they developed this project in pieces. Why did they wait so many years before trying to add a goal to the game (bandits and NPCS as you mentioned)? It's not like 7TDT was released yesterday, it's been out for a *long* time and they never bothered to add a real meaning to the gameplay.
The game wasn't polished then and it still isn't now so it's not even that.

When a car company designs a car, many parts get reworked and adapted multiple times (if they can't be just taken from an older model and fit perfectly). The goal is largely known from day one, for example it should be a sports car with a top speed of 250, removable top cover, and as good a road holding as possible.

But the details are sketchy. What suspension to use could change depending on the changing weight of the car. Some features, like the power of the electrical system possibly, may be decided only at the last stretch of development when the rest of the car is almost finished and the drainage of all systems is known.

We really didn't have a car analogy in the forum for a long time, it was high time for it

To get back to games, it actually is a method for games in open development to add the story only on the last stretch of development or even exclude it from EA to have a "fresh" story at release.

Were bandits touched too late? They already had implemented bandits before A16, but they were not satisfied with them (you can see those bandits in some mods for A16). Then they seemed to have seen other problems that needed their attention before bandits. And I think it was at that time that they hired a new programmer (Fataal) to rework the AI and he has been on that for a good part of his time.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that timeline, but I don't see where they could have changed this and still be where they are now with the game. The AI takes a lot of time to do and meanwhile other designers/programmers won't just sit around, they'll develop their part of the game.

 

[meganoth]

Okay - every weapon type have their own perk right? you have

3 spears

3 bats ( okay we can say 4 if you count candy)

3 knifes ( 4 again candy) but in this same time it is tool

3 wraps

3 sledgehammers

2 batons + 2 turrets

4 pistols + smg

5 MG

4 shotguns

4 rifles

3 bows and 2 crossbow

rocket launcher, 4 "granades" and 5 mines

So almost every category have 3-5 weapons. So thats why they add batons into robotic inventor because this category would have only 2 weapons.  So if they would add for example 10 gun for each category ( it woudn't be so hard) this would make melee underdeweloped right? 

Underdeveloped seems the wrong term for that. If they add a new higher tier to the weapons they should add one to all current categories so that no attribute feels capped in end game. But adding a single new weapons category is no principal problem as can be seen by Perception which has 3. Or just a side weapon like pistols have smg+vulture in the top tier.

Naturally they don't want to overstuff any attribute with weapons and so make it undisputed first choice in everything, but the balance is mainly adjusted between attributes. So if every attribute would get a new gun category I don't think they would dismiss it because of some balance between melee and ranged.

But I have heard them say that they don't want to clutter the game with superficially different looking but almost identical stuff. So they didn't add a Walter P225 and a Glock to pistols because the pistol IS a P225 and a Glock rolled into the one archetype. Having a glock that acts practically the same and has plus or minus 2 damage would be superfluous for them.

So (depending on me not rephrashing them wrong) their design goals clash with your desires and it is unlikely this game and even their new games will have different design goals. Not impossible but unlikely. 

We have 6 quality steps but... this nothing diffrent between them that stats and mods you still you have 3-5 weapons for category only.

If diffent qualty would mean diffrent model  for example

1. rusty junk. 2. junk but in better condition 3. looking old 4. good condition 5. fabric new 6. custom one. I woudn't complain because it would be visual diffrences between them.

So this not i want straight shooter but i want too see more visual diffrent stuff - i don't care if this would be 5 MP5 looking diffrent or 5 diffrent smg or 3 bats looking diffent.

TFP seem not to want 5 different MP5 with identical stats. And I wouldn't care for them either. Some players do, some don't.

You wrote about cod but it just halve true - weapons are not only "gameplay" choice but aestetic too - that's why there is explanation about diffrent guns from diffrent time periods on maps. I undestand why there is small number of weapons in l4d2. But in games like conan exile number of weapons are pretty big because it's not only gameplay but "world building" element too - you know diffrents old lost empires had diffent types of swords etc. 

I know aesthetics is important to you. But aesthetics in games costs a lot of money. An independent game developer can save a lot of money here while some AAA games will just operate on the premise "More is always better". 

Just look at the announcement of typical open world games where they always brag about the square miles of terrain you can visit as if that was a quality measure. While many of those square miles are empty or filled with procedurally generated fluff. And mostly that works well because their target audience are gamers who value that fluff.

So if 7DTD had for example ww2 setting and was set on tropical island - i woudn't complain about few guns only. Or even in modern France or UK. But 7dtd is set in USA in "something like texas" state - so number of guns should be pretty big. So LBD would suit better if there would be bigger guns

That last sentence is totally out of the blue and makes an inference that you never substantiated and gave a reason for. So I'll just say "No" with about as much argument as you could bring to the table. 

1. Yep, i hope so for that. Because i have mental blockade to play in 7dtd - why to check another POI if you find this same 1 eye zombie woman few times? this is soo frustrating. Btw more zombie spawning isn't such big deal for me like zombie variants - if there would be even more zombie this would be even more looking like clone festival. 

Some other players have OCD, some have phobias, some just don't like impolite traders. I think there even have been players who fear zombies . It is good that TFP doesn't listen to every single impairment or weakness of players or the game would be practically empty. What you call mental blockade is not on the same level as a phobia. You can decide to ignore it or find a different game, you have that choice.

That's why cod outbreak  and DL2 are soo dead games  for me.  because it's not fun or comfortable for me to play in this games.  RE2 had a lot of zombie models ( even typical police zombie have a lot of variants ) , no more room in hell too ( as for 2010 standards) , l4d2 , NZA4 (well this is rly boring game,  just "one shot game" but it can be play comfortable ) and i can play in this game without problems.

while i was  playing in DL2 i had feeling like " i kill this zombie room before yeah, whatever i'm done)

So that's why i'm soo frustrated about 7dtd. LBL - whatever , guns models? <sigh>..... fine, drones? ok. This same zombie over and over? i'm out

I undestand. this is their first game so they learn how to do a lot of things. But zombies are so underdeveloped. I wanted to "fix " this problem by using mods but...  at least only one modlet was good because it mixed few enemy mods and add hm... vanilia style zombies. But now after add "HD" models this models don't suit unfortunatly.

That's why i have hope for mods with "vanilia style" or DLC. 

But if there won't be such mods or DLC only option for me is just waiting for another 7DTD game.  

Maybe i was starting too many topic and comments about that but this something that change a lot at least for me

2. Well  not rly - sometimes more is too much - TEW2 is good example about that. Number category is fine just more types of weapons in every category to be increased

 

[thecapotek]

When a car company designs a car, many parts get reworked and adapted multiple times (if they can't be just taken from an older model and fit perfectly). The goal is largely known from day one, for example it should be a sports car with a top speed of 250, removable top cover, and as good a road holding as possible.

But the details are sketchy. What suspension to use could change depending on the changing weight of the car. Some features, like the power of the electrical system possibly, may be decided only at the last stretch of development when the rest of the car is almost finished and the drainage of all systems is known.

During all this time, though, the public doesn't actually get to drive the car until it's ready. This didn't happen with 7DTD. So the metaphor is wrong.

I never started farming or crafting weapons/vehicles just because there's no reason to. The game is fun when you start playing since there is a pseudo-goal to stay alive trough the first nights. Then what?

 

[meganoth]

During all this time, though, the public doesn't actually get to drive the car until it's ready. This didn't happen with 7DTD. So the metaphor is wrong.

Mmmh, but what would happen if that car developer let the public in for regular test drives? Sure, they would need to make sure it is safe and the car would actually run. But would they change development completely just for those public test drives? Would they only add parts that are then final and never allowed to change? Would they keep the preliminary overpowered electrical system just because the public has seen that system already?

You can play the game and follow development if you want and you TFP gets some advantages out of that deal too, no question. But that's it. Look up what steam promises you in that deal. There isn't anything about change not happening, a guaranteed release plan with dates to fix.

I never started farming or crafting weapons/vehicles just because there's no reason to. The game is fun when you start playing since there is a pseudo-goal to stay alive trough the first nights. Then what?

At the moment the goal is to survive until you have the best weapons and a base that can withstand the strongest horde. Look at all the players with hundreds to thousands of hours in the game. Not everyone needs a set goal. I also would suggest looking at co-op multiplayer with a few friends, this greatly increases the fun of surviving without goal.

TFP seems to plan to release the game in about two years (2 more alphas and a short beta). In the release version there should be bandits and an actual end goal of conquering one or both of two factions (the Duke and the White River coalition) in the game. Nothing guaranteed but this seems to be the plan as far as it is known to us players.

 

[Matt115]

Underdeveloped seems the wrong term for that. If they add a new higher tier to the weapons they should add one to all current categories so that no attribute feels capped in end game. But adding a single new weapons category is no principal problem as can be seen by Perception which has 3. Or just a side weapon like pistols have smg+vulture in the top tier.

Naturally they don't want to overstuff any attribute with weapons and so make it undisputed first choice in everything, but the balance is mainly adjusted between attributes. So if every attribute would get a new gun category I don't think they would dismiss it because of some balance between melee and ranged.

But I have heard them say that they don't want to clutter the game with superficially different looking but almost identical stuff. So they didn't add a Walter P225 and a Glock to pistols because the pistol IS a P225 and a Glock rolled into the one archetype. Having a glock that acts practically the same and has plus or minus 2 damage would be superfluous for them.

So (depending on me not rephrashing them wrong) their design goals clash with your desires and it is unlikely this game and even their new games will have different design goals. Not impossible but unlikely. 

Well but problems is what to add to melee weapons too looks good too - medieval spear for spears? fine but what about sledgehammer? warhammer? not rly because it would looks too " 90's" USA post apo setting.  But what can be do a bat? well again reduce option. In theory blades can get katana or diffrent sword but if i understand using matchete to rip off skin that katan could looks a little bit strange.

But even without this  aestetic problem - hm another category can't be in INT for sure because INT is prety strong category.

Yep Glocks and Walter looks similiar that's true but - you can put C96 pistol, duck feet gun ,  i don't know how this even translate but this pistol is partisant modifcation of... mosin nagant ( not nagant revelver but rifle) into bolt action pistol.  Smg is even easier - you can put P90 or  PPSH-41 - they can works much more diffrent that mp5.

For Assult rifle is hard to add something "unsual" because it's very universal guns.

Rifle - even Anti tank rifle can be big change

Shotguns are problems that's true.

Well we will see what they will add in their next game

TFP seem not to want 5 different MP5 with identical stats. And I wouldn't care for them either. Some players do, some don't.

I mean  5 diffrent MP5 with diffrents stats. 1 quality - rust -  5 quality  fabric new

I know aesthetics is important to you. But aesthetics in games costs a lot of money. An independent game developer can save a lot of money here while some AAA games will just operate on the premise "More is always better". 

Just look at the announcement of typical open world games where they always brag about the square miles of terrain you can visit as if that was a quality measure. While many of those square miles are empty or filled with procedurally generated fluff. And mostly that works well because their target audience are gamers who value that fluff.

Well you remind me a joke -

Well - this is even problem in big games - Cod big maps looks so procedurally generated so hm... i think number of weapons, enemies, types of food works good too. So i agree totaly about square miles but damn... i remember this good biding of issac   "100+ enemies, with new designs "  . So i would see that they will add 30 more zombie types in updates i would be probably so happy as hell. Honestly  empty maps can be even much better that "handmade" map if this map is made with style - mad max is so empty and this is sooo good.  

So yes number are important but not only maps - FC talk a lot of about maps but number of types of enemies is low that's boring - and it's not only my opinion but  reviewers too. Medieval dynasty is informating about buildings tool etc but nothing about map. Conan exile was promted by... well conan settings ( probably without this , this game would be less succesful) , the forest about was lore etc. 

So aestetic can sell a game even if game is medicore - i think Control sold good just because umbrella academy S2, guardians of time and SCP have similiar aestetic. 

Deep rock Galaxy earn a lot because their aestetic - this space dwarf setting perfect suit here + ... warhmmer 40K squats popularity. 

Valheim is hm.... good because is so beatiful. it is worthy to buy this game to see sky at night on small island. But hm.... they a little bit broken map generator ( maps looks strange) but still is soo beatiful

So i think  7DTD 2 can have rly good aestetic. Because they will have more time for this ( well they spend a lot of time just fixing RWG).  Maybe even a little bit darker.

Well maybe they will someday make WD game  

That last sentence is totally out of the blue and makes an inference that you never substantiated and gave a reason for. So I'll just say "No" with about as much argument as you could bring to the table. 

This very logical -  if you think about japan-usa ww2 battle , you will think about guns like  about thompson, Type 100 , arisaka , garand etc. so STG44 will not suit here. If you set game in France you will probably add mostly Nato/ hunting rifle . In stalker you have CCP/Nato guns. in Days gone or Contagion you have everything. Why? because people in USA collect a lot of diffrent guns and this explain why you have PPSH in Days gone or M1 garand in contagion. In cod on zombie you have  explanation about Futuristic gun during WW1 battle -  well magic ( because well.. mystery box is just magic box ). I love one detail from L4D2 - so military cars use dessert camo - why? because they will probably trasported fast back to USA.  So guns are not only gameplay but aestetic too.  

Some other players have OCD, some have phobias, some just don't like impolite traders. I think there even have been players who fear zombies . It is good that TFP doesn't listen to every single impairment or weakness of players or the game would be practically empty. What you call mental blockade is not on the same level as a phobia. You can decide to ignore it or find a different game, you have that choice.

Well i still have hope for zombie mods. Well  it's not phobia that's true. ( only phobia that i have  is big problem with water - honestly that's why i hate so much DF demon= octpus it is so bad because it remind me sea - one time i almost drowned when i was learning to swim so now sea is big nope for me).

Well when i play with someone at least this isn't such big deal because i'm focused on talking etc that on "clones" .  

Little bit off top but - skyrim was soo boring for me after some time but after add immersive creature mod it became rly good game - 100 more enemies make this game much better because you can meet much more enemies, I used few compatibility mods with this one and  it was very good.

 

[meganoth]

This very logical -  if you think about japan-usa ww2 battle , you will think about guns like  about thompson, Type 100 , arisaka , garand etc. so STG44 will not suit here. If you set game in France you will probably add mostly Nato/ hunting rifle . In stalker you have CCP/Nato guns. in Days gone or Contagion you have everything. Why? because people in USA collect a lot of diffrent guns and this explain why you have PPSH in Days gone or M1 garand in contagion. In cod on zombie you have  explanation about Futuristic gun during WW1 battle -  well magic ( because well.. mystery box is just magic box ). I love one detail from L4D2 - so military cars use dessert camo - why? because they will probably trasported fast back to USA.  So guns are not only gameplay but aestetic too.  

What has this to do with LBD?

May I remind you that you said "So LBD would suit better if there would be bigger guns "

 

[Matt115]

What has this to do with LBD?

May I remind you that you said "So LBD would suit better if there would be bigger guns "

now i see it should be more guns not bigger guns , my mistake. But bigger guns can be use too 

For example how this could work:

1. melee weapons category  - warrior path - faster swining lesse stamina use

2. bows and crossbows with granades - saboter - faster reload better range

3. pistols ,  batons and stunner - cop longer durability less recoil quicker reload , longer stun

4. shotguns, smg - secret agent  longer durability less recoil quicker reload

5. Assult guns and sniper rifle - heavy duty  longer durability less recoil quicker reload

6. Running jumping swiming - sportman - less stamina use, more stamina, running faster etc

7. sneak - hitman - quieter, faster movment on stealth etc

8. taking hits, using armor, healing "negative bonuses" , eating - survivor - more Hp, quicker healing, less chance for bleeding etc

9.looting scavenging, quests, trade - man of wastelands - better loot and faster looting, scavenging, better prices and prizes

9.Rocket laucher , flamethower, mortal , turrets - engineer - longer durability, quicker repair , longer range etc

Crafting - books and milestones ( 10 meals mean another top chef tier)

So - melee weapons and bows are limited because... well there is small pool for new bats etc right?

Let's say that number of zombie will be x3 bigger with new variants like weak ones. 

So melee weapons and bows would be mostly for weak or single zombies. But still worthy to use because lack of bullets, guns durabillty , loud + stealth.

So you have 9mm bullets ? good they are common so use it. typical stuff

shotgun shells are rarer so you have to take care for that but you can "learn" faster that by using melee weapon.

So if you use for example 50% of time melee and bows, 30% pistols, 10% shotguns and 10% assult guns your level of your skills will be similiar in this categories. So - no more thinking " i should make shotguns slugs because i put 2 points in shotguns". This  time you have to change your guns not because perks but ammo. 

So that's  why can be more guns in each category - let say :

 secret agent Tier 2 - you can have slow but with good recoil MP5 or fast with bad recoil PPSH41, in Tier 3 - MP7 or P90 both similiar function but more dmg that tier before . 

secret agent Tier 2 - powerful chrome shotgun with slow reload but with big dmg and big area of dmg or you can use low dmg but automatic ( you can stun zombie easy) shotgun , Tier 3 similiar thing but more dmg that lower tier and dunno bigger area of damage for powerfull shotgun and bigger mags for automatic shotgun

heavy duty - tier 2 Gail - cheaper , big durability  good recoil , AK - more expensive less durability but bigger dmg and more chance for critical shots etc

This is example how this could looks like. This mean more works because more models of weapons but... sequel should be bigger right?
 

 

[meganoth]

now i see it should be more guns not bigger guns , my mistake. But bigger guns can be use too 

For example how this could work:

1. melee weapons category  - warrior path - faster swining lesse stamina use

2. bows and crossbows with granades - saboter - faster reload better range

3. pistols ,  batons and stunner - cop longer durability less recoil quicker reload , longer stun

4. shotguns, smg - secret agent  longer durability less recoil quicker reload

5. Assult guns and sniper rifle - heavy duty  longer durability less recoil quicker reload

6. Running jumping swiming - sportman - less stamina use, more stamina, running faster etc

7. sneak - hitman - quieter, faster movment on stealth etc

8. taking hits, using armor, healing "negative bonuses" , eating - survivor - more Hp, quicker healing, less chance for bleeding etc

9.looting scavenging, quests, trade - man of wastelands - better loot and faster looting, scavenging, better prices and prizes

9.Rocket laucher , flamethower, mortal , turrets - engineer - longer durability, quicker repair , longer range etc

Crafting - books and milestones ( 10 meals mean another top chef tier)

So - melee weapons and bows are limited because... well there is small pool for new bats etc right?

Let's say that number of zombie will be x3 bigger with new variants like weak ones. 

So melee weapons and bows would be mostly for weak or single zombies. But still worthy to use because lack of bullets, guns durabillty , loud + stealth.

So you have 9mm bullets ? good they are common so use it. typical stuff

shotgun shells are rarer so you have to take care for that but you can "learn" faster that by using melee weapon.

So if you use for example 50% of time melee and bows, 30% pistols, 10% shotguns and 10% assult guns your level of your skills will be similiar in this categories. So - no more thinking " i should make shotguns slugs because i put 2 points in shotguns". This  time you have to change your guns not because perks but ammo. 

So that's  why can be more guns in each category - let say :

 secret agent Tier 2 - you can have slow but with good recoil MP5 or fast with bad recoil PPSH41, in Tier 3 - MP7 or P90 both similiar function but more dmg that tier before . 

secret agent Tier 2 - powerful chrome shotgun with slow reload but with big dmg and big area of dmg or you can use low dmg but automatic ( you can stun zombie easy) shotgun , Tier 3 similiar thing but more dmg that lower tier and dunno bigger area of damage for powerfull shotgun and bigger mags for automatic shotgun

heavy duty - tier 2 Gail - cheaper , big durability  good recoil , AK - more expensive less durability but bigger dmg and more chance for critical shots etc

This is example how this could looks like. This mean more works because more models of weapons but... sequel should be bigger right?
 

And it also looks exactly like a typical shooter works. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it removes originality from the game. And you rely only on scarcity of ammo for this and you didn't solve the problem how to make this happen.

Ammo is not scarce because of crafting, mining and lots of other sources. And it is the scarcity of ammo that makes your design work, NOT LBD. A perk system in a game where ammo were really scarce so that you need to use all weapons would work almost exactly. With some changes to the current perk system the result for players would even be identical.

But this isn't a shooter and I dare to predict that any game with mining and crafting from TFP will surely not follow your model as it is almost impossible to constrict the player into such a narrow path of advancement without removing many of the liberties the current game has.

The current perk system would have no problem at all with a "slow but with good recoil MP5" and a "fast with bad recoil PPSH41" available together. It isn't the perk system that prevents those weapons, it is a decision of TFP that either they don't want many similar weapons or that it isn't worth their effort, i.e. they have better uses for their development time aka other priorities

(By the way, the reason they add weapons that don't look exactly like a real counterpart (for example a PPSH41) might be because they probably would have to pay the weapons company royalties to have that weapon in the game, at least for weapons new enough so their appearance is still intellectual property. But that has nothing to do with the argument, just a side note).

 

[enkephalin07]

(By the way, the reason they add weapons that don't look exactly like a real counterpart (for example a PPSH41) might be because they probably would have to pay the weapons company royalties to have that weapon in the game, at least for weapons new enough so their appearance is still intellectual property. But that has nothing to do with the argument, just a side note).

A successful enough game could surely get a product placement deal, though I'm unsure what the industry practice is with regard to video game placement. I agree with you that it's not really necessary to have a variety of brand names of functionally the same weapon, and it's something an interested modder could spend their time on rather than the development team.