PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[meganoth]

But that's the "evasion" or agility skill.

At least in 7D2D there is no traditional evasion or agility skill (Agi itself is definitely not an agility skill). So the armor skill could very well teach how to effectively move in armor, just like it does now with the heavy armor perk, reducing stamina use while wearing the armor.

And then what? What about actual armour checks? And block checks for a sweet block skill? And the weapon skill? That is sure to be like I stated for the heavy armour but on reverse, right? We are drowning the player in checks, just like in 1929.

You are busting down open doors. Like Jost Amman said, LBD does not fit here. And I don't like LBD at all anyway. This is just idle discussion about a hypothetical armor skill that would avoid the most glaring problems. Something an LBD-heavy modder could implement if he wants.

LBD is a huge can of worms. It has a huge variety of solutions, but most have exploits, and grindy ones at that. I firmly believe that LBD is a system that still has to be perfected in the industry, and its details fleshed out. It's not as challenging as building the James Webb Space Telescope, but it very dayum well comes close in work hours to develop without significant flaws.

TFP have some cool math guys that would flesh it out eventually. Gazz, "Kinkymanju", faatal and the drone guy, for example. Plus MM and the rest of the team to make balanced opinions and designing. Pretty good team.

Still, I love the current system, this is all just talk.

 

[Matt115]

You are busting down open doors. Like Jost Amman said, LBD does not fit here. And I don't like LBD at all anyway. This is just idle discussion about a hypothetical armor skill that would avoid the most glaring problems. Something an LBD-heavy modder could implement if he wants.

Honestly... "busting down open doors" is only thing that left to do for now - we don't have any bigger news ( well this new armor is nothing big enough to talk a lot about that), a lot of things are almost finished but... this game is still too far to be released. So hm if  LBD could fit? Yes but this would need great redesign of game so devs never will do this. But honestly what to do more? So maybe you are right maybe  Blaze, still better is to be just topic that just... lack of topics. This is 100% comfirmed that LBD will not return so this is "dead topic" like zombie children or more weapons types but... there is almost nothing to say about - mods? not everything is interested about that + still we have this same few bigger mods for years so we can say that "nothin new" happens here, Lore and story? is missing so theories about that are dead because there is nothing to talk about, New TFP games? not annouced yet. So @meganoth for me at least it's better to talk about this same thing over and over because... at least... better nothing new that nothing right?

 

[meganoth]

Honestly... "busting down open doors" is only thing that left to do for now - we don't have any bigger news ( well this new armor is nothing big enough to talk a lot about that), a lot of things are almost finished but... this game is still too far to be released. So hm if  LBD could fit? Yes but this would need great redesign of game so devs never will do this. But honestly what to do more? So maybe you are right maybe  Blaze, still better is to be just topic that just... lack of topics. This is 100% comfirmed that LBD will not return so this is "dead topic" like zombie children or more weapons types but... there is almost nothing to say about - mods? not everything is interested about that + still we have this same few bigger mods for years so we can say that "nothin new" happens here, Lore and story? is missing so theories about that are dead because there is nothing to talk about, New TFP games? not annouced yet. So @meganoth for me at least it's better to talk about this same thing over and over because... at least... better nothing new that nothing right?

"busting down open doors" is the same as "I fully agree with you on this", it does not mean I don't want to talk about it.

In other words: My idea is NOT a very good idea how to handle armor, it may just be the best LBD idea how to handle armor (in my opinion).

 

[Matt115]

"busting down open doors" is the same as "I fully agree with you on this", it does not mean I don't want to talk about it.

In other words: My idea is NOT a very good idea how to handle armor, it may just be the best LBD idea how to handle armor (in my opinion).

Well... i agree about that. Problem in my opinion is... 7DTD is just too small i mean number of weapons etc. Well i hope 7dtd 2 will have much more of them and so LBD can be implemented good

 

[Lord Morphleyes]

The reality though, which makes both you guys "wrong", is that no skill is needed to wear armor.

As long as you button up correctly and don't put an arm where the leg should be, you're set.

I would say that the only factor which could be considered experience with armor, is getting used to it.

The first time I wore a hand-made, true-to-history, chain-mail jacket, I didn't need ANY time at all to get used.

So, basically what I'm saying is they should completely remove certain skills from LBD systems and put the bonuses directly ON the object (in this case, the armor).

Just to be argumentative because its Friday Afternoon and I haven't had any beer yet:

To wear it?  Maybe not, but how well did you 'wield' it?!   How long until one becomes familiar with the weak and strong points of their armor?  How many battles before the knowledge of what weapons and strikes are the most difficult for the armor to mitigate? How does one know how to parry the spear and turn into that scimitar without facing them in battle after long hard battle? How long does it take to one get the intimate knowledge of how their chainmail sounds when it has a hole? 

Cool, that you got to wear an actual chain mail jacket.  I would love to see how it really feels.  

 

[meganoth]

Well... i agree about that. Problem in my opinion is... 7DTD is just too small i mean number of weapons etc. Well i hope 7dtd 2 will have much more of them and so LBD can be implemented good

In my opinion you are only setting yourself up for disappointment.

TFP  seem to be satisfied on the whole with the perk system. So why should they turn 7D2D 2 completely around here? The second installment will likely be a continuation, a bigger version of 1 (that is my guess at least). And to my knowledge the number of weapons or the number of anything else had nothing at all to do with their decision to ditch LBD.

 

[Matt115]

In my opinion you are only setting yourself up for disappointment.

TFP  seem to be satisfied on the whole with the perk system. So why should they turn 7D2D 2 completely around here? The second installment will likely be a continuation, a bigger version of 1 (that is my guess at least). And to my knowledge the number of weapons or the number of anything else had nothing at all to do with their decision to ditch LBD.

Well... i'm disspointed for few years. Days gone is dead, cod is just parody of cod, diablo immortal is hm.... well "P2W" , M&B Bannerlord looks good but older screens had better art style. 

So why should they turn 7D2D 2 completely around here?

About perks? Nope this this is just "road". 7DTD have a lot of good things - nice POI, "wildlife", quest etc but... there the one think is so underdeweloped - zombies. Small number of models, variants, population of them etc. I undestand that - this is their first game - i get this. in older version before sleeper every zombie were active so hm... number of guns + zombie was good enough. But after so many years everything is more except this one thing. In zombie game. So if they give bigger focus on zombie this would give him conclusion that use this same MP5 for X hours can be little bit boring - so you have to add more guns but in this same time there no option to add more sledgehammers, knifes etc - so...  actual  and LBL would be... broken system because mostly guns would be usefull while bows and  melee would have much less variants so will be underdevpment but - if you don't want keep this style there is no option to add more melee weapons/tools so LBD would be the best option. Not perfect but good. 

So 7DTD 2 should have more weapons - so this mean LBD is the best option for this.

So hm... to avoid being disspointed i'm just waiting for sequel/spinoff because this the most rational solution

 

[Jost Amman]

To wear it?  Maybe not, but how well did you 'wield' it?!   How long until one becomes familiar with the weak and strong points of their armor?  How many battles before the knowledge of what weapons and strikes are the most difficult for the armor to mitigate? How does one know how to parry the spear and turn into that scimitar without facing them in battle after long hard battle? How long does it take to one get the intimate knowledge of how their chainmail sounds when it has a hole? 

Don't worry! All that work has already been done by the armor smith!  :smash:

Also, if you really were in a battle, you wouldn't have neither the time nor the attention to listen to the "sounds" your armor makes when braking down.  :fencing:

Cool, that you got to wear an actual chain mail jacket.  I would love to see how it really feels.  

Nothing special. Feels like a thicker jacket that has not buttons!  :madgrin:

Just to be argumentative because its Friday Afternoon and I haven't had any beer yet:

Here's one!  :tea:

 

[wdnmd123456]

一切看起来都很棒，我等不及了（除了那件铁甲，它的可怕，抱歉）但是什么时候可以（如果在我道歉之前已经回答了这个问题），车辆什么时候可以对僵尸造成实际伤害？如果我让僵尸减速，它应该会死，或者至少会受重伤  

Motorcycles and trucks can cause damage to zombies, but the damage is very low

 

[Shyara]

Motorcycles and trucks can cause damage to zombies, but the damage is very low

yes, its like 1 hit point of injury. if i hit you with a 4x4 truck or a motorcycle (both of which are covered in spikes and whatnot) , you should take way more than 1 hp of injury. Try it out, see how many times you have to run over a zombie for it to die

 

[wdnmd123456]

是的，它就像1点伤害。如果我用 4x4 卡车或摩托车（两者都覆盖着尖刺之类的东西）撞到你，你应该受到超过 1 马力的伤害。试试看，看看你要跑多少次才能让僵尸死

Do you mean that the speed determines the damage? Haha, I hope so, no matter how fast the current car is, the damage is so small 

 

[wdnmd123456]

就我个人而言，当我们打开门的时候，我会喜欢我们的手实际上会打开门，或者通过动画、PvP的表情、更多的肉搏动画来打开门。

你说的是开门的动画吗？个人认为生存游戏不需要这种

就我个人而言，当我们打开门的时候，我会喜欢我们的手实际上会打开门，或者通过动画、PvP的表情、更多的肉搏动画来打开门。

In terms of killing on the 7th, when you are chased by zombies, the animation of opening the door is very slow

 

[Jost Amman]

The game is good and all, I keep playing it occasionally. What actually bothers me is that there's still no actual point to it.
There's no consolidated storyline or quest system that leads up to something.
I mean, I gather resources, weapons, food and all that, in order to achieve what, exactly?
I'm not really up to speed with game updates and betas but there doesn't seem to be any actual work towards this direction. Not to mention the fact the game hasn't left Alpha stage despite being worked on for years and years. I'm not even trying to be hostile or anything, I enjoy the game as I said, I just think that sooner or later a game has to have an actual goal for the player to achieve.

No, you're right... currently we have no real goal/story but the "goal" to stay alive.

Problem is, the story is the last one that can be added, since you can only have a story after you add NPCs (not only traders), you can only have a story after you add Bandits (they're working on the first iteration right now) and finally you can add a story only after all the game mechanics are where the devs think they should be.

An educated guess would be at least two more years of development before we can see any of that.

 

[meganoth]

Well... i'm disspointed for few years. Days gone is dead, cod is just parody of cod, diablo immortal is hm.... well "P2W" , M&B Bannerlord looks good but older screens had better art style. 

About perks? Nope this this is just "road". 7DTD have a lot of good things - nice POI, "wildlife", quest etc but... there the one think is so underdeweloped - zombies. Small number of models, variants, population of them etc. I undestand that - this is their first game - i get this. in older version before sleeper every zombie were active so hm... number of guns + zombie was good enough. But after so many years everything is more except this one thing. In zombie game. So if they give bigger focus on zombie this would give him conclusion that use this same MP5 for X hours can be little bit boring - so you have to add more guns but in this same time there no option to add more sledgehammers, knifes etc - so...  actual  and LBL would be... broken system because mostly guns would be usefull while bows and  melee would have much less variants so will be underdevpment but - if you don't want keep this style there is no option to add more melee weapons/tools so LBD would be the best option. Not perfect but good. 

So 7DTD 2 should have more weapons - so this mean LBD is the best option for this.

So hm... to avoid being disspointed i'm just waiting for sequel/spinoff because this the most rational solution

I don't see any reason why you need more weapons to keep perks (or remove them). We already have 6 quality steps of 4 tiers of ~12 weapon categories, half of them ranged. That is a lot of weapons for a game that isn't a straight shooter or loot shooter. I get the impression you want more of a straight shooter (like cod is) and think this game needs more weapons because that is almost the only stuff that you value in the game.

Certainly I have never heard the devs argument that they would want more almost identical weapon variants like shooters have, but could not do that (except for legendary weapons which I hope will still be put into 7D2D 1).

Yes, more zombie variants and especially more zombies spawning would be very nice for this game. And I'm sure that is already on the internal wish list of TFP for 7D2D 2.

More weapons? Possibly. Not as high priority but I think they would add another tier or two or even another weapon category (flame thrower and other special weapons possibly) just because a version 2 of a game needs more of everything. 

 

[Matt115]

I don't see any reason why you need more weapons to keep perks (or remove them). We already have 6 quality steps of 4 tiers of ~12 weapon categories, half of them ranged. That is a lot of weapons for a game that isn't a straight shooter or loot shooter. I get the impression you want more of a straight shooter (like cod is) and think this game needs more weapons because that is almost the only stuff that you value in the game.

Certainly I have never heard the devs argument that they would want more almost identical weapon variants like shooters have, but could not do that (except for legendary weapons which I hope will still be put into 7D2D 1).

Okay - every weapon type have their own perk right? you have

3 spears

3 bats ( okay we can say 4 if you count candy)

3 knifes ( 4 again candy) but in this same time it is tool

3 wraps

3 sledgehammers

2 batons + 2 turrets

4 pistols + smg

5 MG

4 shotguns

4 rifles

3 bows and 2 crossbow

rocket launcher, 4 "granades" and 5 mines

So almost every category have 3-5 weapons. So thats why they add batons into robotic inventor because this category would have only 2 weapons.  So if they would add for example 10 gun for each category ( it woudn't be so hard) this would make melee underdeweloped right? 

We have 6 quality steps but... this nothing diffrent between them that stats and mods you still you have 3-5 weapons for category only.

If diffent qualty would mean diffrent model  for example

1. rusty junk. 2. junk but in better condition 3. looking old 4. good condition 5. fabric new 6. custom one. I woudn't complain because it would be visual diffrences between them.

So this not i want straight shooter but i want too see more visual diffrent stuff - i don't care if this would be 5 MP5 looking diffrent or 5 diffrent smg or 3 bats looking diffent.

You wrote about cod but it just halve true - weapons are not only "gameplay" choice but aestetic too - that's why there is explanation about diffrent guns from diffrent time periods on maps. I undestand why there is small number of weapons in l4d2. But in games like conan exile number of weapons are pretty big because it's not only gameplay but "world building" element too - you know diffrents old lost empires had diffent types of swords etc. 

So if 7DTD had for example ww2 setting and was set on tropical island - i woudn't complain about few guns only. Or even in modern France or UK. But 7dtd is set in USA in "something like texas" state - so number of guns should be pretty big. So LBD would suit better if there would be bigger guns

Yes, more zombie variants and especially more zombies spawning would be very nice for this game. And I'm sure that is already on the internal wish list of TFP for 7D2D 2.

More weapons? Possibly. Not as high priority but I think they would add another tier or two or even another weapon category (flame thrower and other special weapons possibly) just because a version 2 of a game needs more of everything. 

1. Yep, i hope so for that. Because i have mental blockade to play in 7dtd - why to check another POI if you find this same 1 eye zombie woman few times? this is soo frustrating. Btw more zombie spawning isn't such big deal for me like zombie variants - if there would be even more zombie this would be even more looking like clone festival. 

That's why cod outbreak  and DL2 are soo dead games  for me.  because it's not fun or comfortable for me to play in this games.  RE2 had a lot of zombie models ( even typical police zombie have a lot of variants ) , no more room in hell too ( as for 2010 standards) , l4d2 , NZA4 (well this is rly boring game,  just "one shot game" but it can be play comfortable ) and i can play in this game without problems.

while i was  playing in DL2 i had feeling like " i kill this zombie room before yeah, whatever i'm done)

So that's why i'm soo frustrated about 7dtd. LBL - whatever , guns models? <sigh>..... fine, drones? ok. This same zombie over and over? i'm out

I undestand. this is their first game so they learn how to do a lot of things. But zombies are so underdeveloped. I wanted to "fix " this problem by using mods but...  at least only one modlet was good because it mixed few enemy mods and add hm... vanilia style zombies. But now after add "HD" models this models don't suit unfortunatly.

That's why i have hope for mods with "vanilia style" or DLC. 

But if there won't be such mods or DLC only option for me is just waiting for another 7DTD game.  

Maybe i was starting too many topic and comments about that but this something that change a lot at least for me

2. Well  not rly - sometimes more is too much - TEW2 is good example about that. Number category is fine just more types of weapons in every category to be increased

 

[Diragor]

just started a new game and had the worst experience so far in this game. Day 1  not even 5 minutes and I died to a Dog, cause Dogs are everywhere and they mean instant death on day 1. Then I tried to clean a small House, boom another dog that killed me. I wanted to keep the house as my Base so I went back in and tried to kill the dog who ran through the spikes, whose hitboxes sucks very hard actually... more on that later. So the dog nearly killed me again, after that I cleaned the rest and omg is the stamina in this game terrible. Never saw a person jog 20 meters and being out of stamina, or hitting something with a club 5 times and you are exausted. please the stamina drain is WAY too high. it's dumb a zombie walks towards you and you try to hit it while walking backwards but you can't cause you got no stamina left, meanwhile the zombie hits you without stopping cause a zombie that got hit once is moving faster, also the "getting hit stumble" animation is ass. The zombie get's hit in the head, stumbles towards you and can hit you right back.

Now about the spikes hitboxes and why it sucks. I cleaned the house and it was getting nighttime. Instantly it started bashing on my walls. zombies everywhere like it was a BM horde, but it wasn't cause BM was set to Day 4 and warning was on. so I died 2 times again while defending myself and that just cause of the stamina issue. I also tried to defend the entrance by placing two spikes on top of each others. The door got broken and the zombies ran against the spiked. Nothing happesn, they just run against it like it was a normal block. Also they couldn't hit it, they tried. The hitbox to recieve damage is on top of the spikes. also the bottom of them is a solid hitbox which is larger than the damage hitbox of it, so you could place indestructible walls just by using stacked spikes. also the upgrading of spikes is ass too, cause you can't upgrade blocks under spikes. Please change the spikes and stamina for A21 cause it's no fun. I mean I would prefer a system without stamina or a system like Night of the dead where you still can do everything that consumes stamina but it drains your HP. But instead of HP drainage it should drain your water and food ...

 

[SnowDog1942]

just started a new game and had the worst experience so far in this game. Day 1  not even 5 minutes and I died to a Dog, cause Dogs are everywhere and they mean instant death on day 1. Then I tried to clean a small House, boom another dog that killed me. I wanted to keep the house as my Base so I went back in and tried to kill the dog who ran through the spikes, whose hitboxes sucks very hard actually... more on that later. So the dog nearly killed me again, after that I cleaned the rest and omg is the stamina in this game terrible. Never saw a person jog 20 meters and being out of stamina, or hitting something with a club 5 times and you are exausted. please the stamina drain is WAY too high. it's dumb a zombie walks towards you and you try to hit it while walking backwards but you can't cause you got no stamina left, meanwhile the zombie hits you without stopping cause a zombie that got hit once is moving faster, also the "getting hit stumble" animation is ass. The zombie get's hit in the head, stumbles towards you and can hit you right back.

Now about the spikes hitboxes and why it sucks. I cleaned the house and it was getting nighttime. Instantly it started bashing on my walls. zombies everywhere like it was a BM horde, but it wasn't cause BM was set to Day 4 and warning was on. so I died 2 times again while defending myself and that just cause of the stamina issue. I also tried to defend the entrance by placing two spikes on top of each others. The door got broken and the zombies ran against the spiked. Nothing happesn, they just run against it like it was a normal block. Also they couldn't hit it, they tried. The hitbox to recieve damage is on top of the spikes. also the bottom of them is a solid hitbox which is larger than the damage hitbox of it, so you could place indestructible walls just by using stacked spikes. also the upgrading of spikes is ass too, cause you can't upgrade blocks under spikes. Please change the spikes and stamina for A21 cause it's no fun. I mean I would prefer a system without stamina or a system like Night of the dead where you still can do everything that consumes stamina but it drains your HP. But instead of HP drainage it should drain your water and food ...

Let me be the first to say… Git Gud

 

[Diragor]

Let me be the first to say… Git Gud

wow what a childish answer I have 1,5k hours of playtime I know how to play. but I am not nerdypoling a dog it's dumb. I won't cheese the AI cause that has nothing to be with being good. also I made a bug report about the spikes. they are changed and in a very bad way

 

[Laz Man]

wow what a childish answer I have 1,5k hours of playtime I know how to play. but I am not nerdypoling a dog it's dumb. I won't cheese the AI cause that has nothing to be with being good. also I made a bug report about the spikes. they are changed and in a very bad way

Pipe weapons can easily be crafted early for those oh crap moments.  Also, most encounters with dogs in/near them have nearby blocks/terrain to take advantage of (e.g. cars, hay bales, etc.)  No nerd poling required.

Edit:  Out of curiosity, what was the name of the house with the dog that killed you?

 

[Diragor]

Edit:  Out of curiosity, what was the name of the house with the dog that killed you?

house_old_mansard_03.1991

well I was out in the open so no car to jump on and who can build himself a pipe weapon and got ammo after 5 minutes?