PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Jost Amman]

I also think that a level 6 durability (or just put a star where the 6* would be) weapon should be a crafted only item. It would be crafted with a rare and valuable item and would make every gun balanced to the highest tier gun. It would be possible with the new crafting system and would give more variety than just the singular end game weapon. You'd have your rare loot and something special at the end of the crafting tree. You can't ignore crafting and just buy the gun. You'd have to buy or loot the rare item then craft the best for whatever weapon you want. The lower level player would be able to use a normally crafted durability 5 pipe gun but not the durability 6* pipe gun that's a separate crafted item.

This is what happens when players can craft Q6 items...  :lol:

 

[meganoth]

The implication was that it just complainers, basically a way of dismissing their opinion as a minority opinion.

The statement with the "If" in it did indeed come later - but that was exactly the one he quoted when he complained about me saying "if everyone hates it"

So whats your point?

How about you go back to my original statement and pick it apart in a reasoned way and provide some actual form of response instead of just closing ranks with your mates and defending them when they decide to be abrasive?

You're a moderator. it's not nice to show your bias.

He used sarcasm. There is no forum rule against that and you can use that as well. Your reply also had direct insults/ad hominems (genius, raging fanboi) so I actually was thinking about stepping in as moderator. 

 By the way, I edited my reply to you shortly before I read this new post, and I did give you credit for the second part of your complaint.

As a normal forum user I can side with anyone I want and give my opinion about anything. If I ever act in my capacity as a moderator you will notice the difference.

 

[BFT2020]

I also think that a level 6 durability (or just put a star where the 6* would be) weapon should be a crafted only item. It would be crafted with a rare and valuable item and would make every gun balanced to the highest tier gun. It would be possible with the new crafting system and would give more variety than just the singular end game weapon. You'd have your rare loot and something special at the end of the crafting tree. You can't ignore crafting and just buy the gun. You'd have to buy or loot the rare item then craft the best for whatever weapon you want. The lower level player would be able to use a normally crafted durability 5 pipe gun but not the durability 6* pipe gun that's a separate crafted item.

Interesting idea, but I think it takes away those that want the thrill of finding a Q6 item while looting.

I been thinking of having different weapons based on how they were obtained:

• Looted weapons - variable stats to indicate the variety you find, maybe even limit the number of mod slots to 3 (to indicate not being properly maintained).
  
• Crafted weapons - all mod slots open, variability limited to average to max
  
• Purchased Trader weapons - all mod slots open, expensive, max stats
  

However, these are tied to my mod which doesn't allow you to repair items so my thought process is that you can't always have the best weapon as eventually that weapon will wear down and my character after day 37 is not flushed with dukes.

 

[Jost Amman]

Take, just as an example the changes to farming, which pretty much everyone who actually USED farming hated.

There's not misunderstanding what you said, and you also tried to look like you were talking for a majority of players.

This is typical of someone who wants to give importance to his opinion by creating the illusion of being part of a vast group he's representing.

Then, after outhouse calls you out on it, you reply with insults and lash out.

Tip: take responsibility for your opinions, whatever they are, and state them as yours, and you'll get much more respect.

 

[BFT2020]

Yes, modding solves everything, but it doesn't do much for encouraging the new play to explore the myriad of playstyles in the base game.

I am a big supporter of modding, but even I don't think modding should be used to solve everything.  If one of the top 3 downloaded mods for your finished game is the Unofficial GAME TITLE Patch, then you are doing something wrong (I am looking at you Big B).

For me, I tend to be realistic.  I understand that the way I want to play the game is different than others.  I hope that TFP will create a game exactly how I want to play, but understand that is not a realistic (or healthy) desire.  Instead, I was hoping for (and got) a game that I could learn to create my own mods for.  Now I can load up some mods created by some talented modders, or dive into creating my own mod, with its own quirks and funny placeholders as I implement and learn as I go along

I got over 3k playing hours in vanilla before I started to mod (not a boast, just a fact to set context).  So I have played a lot of various playstyles available (and realize that there are more out there - I never done any roleplaying really).

Certainly, you can given that many items are already level gated. An m60 on day 1 would imbalance the game a lot more than excess water production. The book to make the exploding bolts is already gated that way. It's just that once you do get it, you still can't utilize them without sufficient water production.

Actually, you could have thrown my words back at me.  I realized later that I had a possible solution of balancing glue production and exploding arrows/bolts production based on a recipe change for them.  However, my solution might not be the route that TFP want to go, but as always, I will gladly share my thoughts and ideas 

 

[Roland]

I'm sorry but being told to "lump it" is EXACTLY the attitude players are met with.

Okay, but in that sense 7 Days to Die is like pretty much every other game in the industry. You buy a game and play it for what it offers and if you write the studio and ask them to change something, they decline. Games are a product of the vision of their creators. Community feedback can result in adjustments but for the most part it is TFP’s show and we are along for the ride to experience what happens. 
 

Take, just as an example the changes to farming, which pretty much everyone who actually USED farming hated.

Was it reverted, no - those folk were just met with a wall of "it's great and it stays like that."

How do you know pretty much everyone who actually uses it hates it? Farming was adjusted due to community feedback, btw. The LOTL perks were changed so that you didn’t have to max it out to be successful at it. 
 

I've suggested time and time again that if there were OPTIONS to control the way more aspects of the game work it would keep a lot more people happy.

There have been some new options added and more will be once all features are in. Options are down on the list of priorities right now. TFP let’s us mod our own options in the meantime. This isn’t a case of “lump it” but one of “be patient until it’s time and use mods in the meantime.”

Is that ever implemented, no - it's the modders who allow us to revert gameplay features that we don't like - not TFP.

haha….you act like modders are underground secret freedom fighters who are offering us options without TFP’s knowledge or say so. No, TFP has set things up precisely so that modders can do what they do. This isn’t the case of Rebel Alliance vs Empire. It’s Madmole, not Darthmole….

Same with the new crafting progression system - is anyone actually telling me that it's going to be removed if everyone hates it?

Im telling you it’s not going to be adjusted until anyone actually play tests it during experimental. Then, if everyone hates it then yes, it would totally be reverted. (Note: Everyone includes Madmole too)

People like Khaine do indeed tell people to lump it - but it's a minority - if there was a majority who hated something about DF I'm pretty sure it would change.

Sure, Khaine Skywalker is a hero when he says “this is not change you’re looking for” and waves his hand because he only ever says it to a minority and to Stormtroooers at that. Did you know that the people he rejected were also absolutely certain they were in the majority? That’s part of the reason I had to get involved and restrict their access because of how upset they got. 
 

The devs seem to be a little less concerned - and I suppose they're entitled to be - it is after all their game and their baby to do what they want with.

We've already bought the damn thing so we have little to no power - maybe that's part of the problem.

Well, if it’s any consolation, people who have not bought it yet have even less power. The devs do care about the reception the game gets. They spent a lot of money so they could gather telemetry on what true majorities are doing. They listen and read at many fan sites and forums— not just this one. 

 

[meganoth]

I got two that bugged me which is why I am glad to see the changes:

• Once you perk into the progression (say gunslinger at level 3 perk), I can create a Q4 Pistol, a Q4 Magnum, a Q4 DV, or a Q4 SMG.  Why build the former two if you get the same quality as the latter two?
  
• And no Q6 crafting
  

Now with the changes, once you are able to finally craft a Q5 pistol, you can't craft the same quality SMG.

And yes, Q6 crafting hasn't been confirmed, but Madmole at least said he would consider it.  (and if not, I am sure I can mod it in my game).

Exactly. Another problem is that you may be prevented from crafting your Q4 Magnum because you suddenly can craft Q5 but you don't have enough parts for the Q5. The new system doesn't tackle that directly (as far as we know), but after you find a few more magazines you will be able to craft a Q1 vulture instead of the Q5 magnum and that should be craftable with less parts again.

I'm not sure they will keep this mechanism as is though. While somewhat improved it is still wonky to be prevented from crafting because you are too good at it.

In practice the biggest failure of the old crafting system was that you almost always stepped over much of the progression. After you could craft a Q4 pistol and found a higher tier recipe, the next step would not be Q1 magnum/mp5/vulture but Q4 already.

And in practice everyone would have waited one perk point and only crafted a Q5 magnum/mp5/vulture by that time.

 

[Zombiepoptard]

Interesting idea, but I think it takes away those that want the thrill of finding a Q6 item while looting.

I been thinking of having different weapons based on how they were obtained:

• Looted weapons - variable stats to indicate the variety you find, maybe even limit the number of mod slots to 3 (to indicate not being properly maintained).
  
• Crafted weapons - all mod slots open, variability limited to average to max
  
• Purchased Trader weapons - all mod slots open, expensive, max stats
  

However, these are tied to my mod which doesn't allow you to repair items so my thought process is that you can't always have the best weapon as eventually that weapon will wear down and my character after day 37 is not flushed with dukes.

The thrill of finding an AWESOME GUN would be just replaced by finding the SUPER HIGH QUALITY GUN PART! to craft the Q6 item.

The whole point of the idea is to have the crafting be viable for end game while not taking away the SICK loot! 

 

[BFT2020]

People like Khaine do indeed tell people to lump it - but it's a minority - if there was a majority who hated something about DF I'm pretty sure it would change.

Even if that change goes against how he wants his mod to work?  DF was a creation by Khaine for himself, his wife, and his friends.  Khaine is pretty good about taking feedback on his mod and will make changes that makes sense to him; but I doubt he will make changes simply because a majority of players hate something in DF.

If I get to the point that I am confident about releasing my mod so others can experience it, I would be the same way.  I would have no issues with receiving feedback and suggestions, but I wouldn't change it simply because a majority of players wanted something different - especially if it is not something I want

His mods were creations more for himself than anything else; he has just been very nice to share them with others so you can experience his vision and hard work.

 

[NICULL]

Probs just a flick of a switch. Come on @faatal, just flick it!

ok its not THAT easy to add either XD there was actually a modlet a while back that let you zoom in really close but its broken now and it was not centered on the drivers side on the 4x4...

 

[BFT2020]

I had an idea to help with this, but I don't know how possible it is.

Crafted items ALWAYS have set stats. So making a Q6 vs a Q5 will always be better.

FINDING an item has randomized stats, so finding a Q6 may actually be better than your crafted Q6 (or possibly even worse!)

A brute force way is to have 2 9mm Pistols, but with different stats

So crafted_9mmPistol removes the random stat lines and adjusting the base_set ones if you want those values to be higher while the 9mm Pistol in the game is kept the same.  Then change the recipes to unlock the crafted_9mmPistol instead of the regular 9mm Pistol already in the game.

An ideal way to do is via tags so you only have one 9mm pistol in the game, but based on you acquire it, it applies different parts of the code to it; similar to how equipment grabbed through CM is always average stats, no randomization.

I started looking at the brute force method already, but it is a lot of code copying, tweaking, and such.

 

[KhaineGB]

Yeah, you could definitely do the brute force method for sure. I was just hoping someone smarter than me (like faatal) might be able to tell us if what I suggested were possible or not so we could avoid that.

 

[Neminsis]

Even if you meant it differently, any reader would be misled by such a statement.

I appreciate that but even when going through the stack in the proper order you still come up with a close approximation that may or not be reflected by an individual roll.

Though I would inquire at this point what the actual purpose of the lootprobabilitytemplate is then.

 

 

[jorbascrumps]

That is my biggest complaint with this game

I'd say we're in a pretty good spot then

I had an idea to help with this, but I don't know how possible it is.

Crafted items ALWAYS have set stats. So making a Q6 vs a Q5 will always be better.

FINDING an item has randomized stats, so finding a Q6 may actually be better than your crafted Q6 (or possibly even worse!)

This seems like the most obvious solution to me. I don't understand why it isn't a thing already - is it a technical limitation? Lower priority? Just curious.

 

[meganoth]

I appreciate that but even when going through the stack in the proper order you still come up with a close approximation that may or not be reflected by an individual roll.

Though I would inquire at this point what the actual purpose of the lootprobabilitytemplate is then.

 

There are two versions of templates. Some depend on player loot level, some represent just a fixed percentage (the latter are the ones that have the short forms med, low, verylow...).

When they are used somewhere they usually are in a list with other items that either don't have a lootprobabilitytemplate or a different one. For example rareOres:

<lootgroup name="rareOres">
<item name="resourceSilverNugget" count="1,5"/>
<item name="resourceGoldNugget" count="1,4" loot_prob_template="medLow"/>
<item name="resourceRawDiamond" count="1,3" loot_prob_template="veryLow"/>
</lootgroup>




If you find a rareOre then the program looks at this table. A silvernugget is probability 1 (or 100% if you think about probabilties as percentages, the default), gold 0.35 and diamond 0.05. But these are not the real percentages because they would sum up to more than 1.

So the program sums up those probabilities: 1+.35+0.05 = 1.4 . Then it divides all probabilties by 1.4 so they sum up to 1 or 100% again. And then picks one line randomly according to those probabilities.

In this case silver would have a probability of 71%, gold a probability of 25% and diamond of 3.5% only.

Loot level dependant probabilites work the same, but the raw percentage value they have changes with the loot level. So they might have a very low probability with a low-level player and gain probability with time. In consequence other items in the same list lose some probability.

 

[BFT2020]

Another use of the loot tables is to see how long it takes (or took) for schwanz9000 to pull out their hair  

 

[meganoth]

Another use of the loot tables is to see how long it takes (or took) for schwanz9000 to pull out their hair  

Their? Schwanz9000 is a swarm entity?

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

We don’t know what entity creation tools will be provided by TFP, if any. They’ve provided tools for POI creation and world building so far.
 

Well thats already good news - limited thusfar to POI's but still resson enough to be optimistic. Hopefully there will be more interaction on the point of zombies.

I appreciate the response. Just drop the sarcasm, it makes you look like a child and turns me away from trying to have reasonable discussion with you.

I would much rather a productive chat.

 

[Roland]

Well thats already good news - limited thusfar to POI's but still resson enough to be optimistic. Hopefully there will be more interaction on the point of zombies.

I appreciate the response. Just drop the sarcasm, it makes you look like a child and turns me away from trying to have reasonable discussion with you.

I would much rather a productive chat.

My response to you was 100% sarcasm free. I already apologized and said I would only be serious with you from now on. How much more are you going to try and wring from this?  

I’m never going to be sarcastic or even playfully friendly with your posts again. You will get perfect customer service rep Roland from now on. We’ll call him Proland…. 

Well…starting now because that last line was a bit borderline. 
 

 Let’s move on already 

 

[BFT2020]

Their? Schwanz9000 is a swarm entity?

Lol, no it’s my attempt not to assume a person’s gender/identity so I try to use gender neutral terms as much as possible