PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Guppycur]

Downhill.

Losing tonnes of good features and replacing it with out of place stuff like the drone (that I used once and shelved for its lag spiking) and needless fluff everywhere we don't need it (i.e street lamps) and nowhere where we do need it (more zombie models.)

Serious question - if no more zombies are added, are modders going to have access to create equal quality zombies; and support, where neccessary, to make and implement them?

If not, I just won't remotely be surprised.

If yes, I will be pleasantly suprised, and it would generate a corollary. Have the devs considered allowing unpaid creators to submit models for the devs to polish and include in the game while its still in development?

A dev-playerbase interaction to this end would be amazing, and even if the devs didn't offer any compensation, I would gladly support this both from a perspective of encouragement, and financially via donations.

And before anyone has a chance to misinterpret me - I don't mean mods. I mean creations and submissions from players to devs, followed by submitting a final creation for the devs to perhaps polish and incorporate into vanilla.

Tfp has integrated modding in a way that it's natively supported.  No weird hacks, no crazy executables, straight out of the box adding of blocks, items, entities, particles, and even code.  

They're incredibly supportive of the modding community, and in fact a few of their staff began as modders. 

 

[Jost Amman]

Would you like to expand on the dislike Jost? Or you have ambitions of becoming the next Kuasimodo?

Downhill.

Losing tonnes of good features and replacing it with out of place stuff like the drone (that I used once and shelved for its lag spiking) and needless fluff everywhere we don't need it (i.e street lamps) and nowhere where we do need it (more zombie models.)

That's your own opinion of the game and your own taste, there's plenty of people who enjoy the new features (me included) and think that the general direction of the game is good. I know there are issues and things that are incomplete, or need to be balanced, but that's part of the process.

I envy Kuasimodo! He's like a stealth drone... he strikes from 40,000 feet and flies away!  :tongue:

 

[Guppycur]

I agree that things change each alpha. That should be expected. But what do you mean by the direction changing?  To me, things are heading in the same general direction they’ve been heading all along.  What direction are you saying we were heading in before and what direction do you think it’s changed to?

I’ll give my answer first:  I think the direction they’ve been going is to make the first 20-40 hours of gameplay accessible, challenging, and fun with plenty to do and multiple pathways for progression. They’re also very driven to improve the visuals and the world building elements. To me, the changes they’ve made in the game have all been to those ends. 

...is that something you really want me to make a list of?  We "grew up together" in this community, we've both had the pleasure of seeing zombies outside in center cities to inside in every cupboard.  We've seen crafting changes, zombie radar, we've been able to combine items to create better ones and we've been able to learn by doing.

...I don't think there is enough memory on this forum to list out all of the changes in direction the game has taken.  

Sure. You can change the definition of direction, but we've both seen the pimps zig and zag, I'm not sure why you're arguing against that.

Hell, I love it.  I hope the game never goes gold.

 

[Jost Amman]

...I don't think there is enough memory on this forum to list out all of the changes in direction the game has taken.  

Spoiler

ound:

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

Tfp has integrated modding in a way that it's natively supported.  No weird hacks, no crazy executables, straight out of the box adding of blocks, items, entities, particles, and even code.  

They're incredibly supportive of the modding community, and in fact a few of their staff began as modders. 

Sure but you seem to have missed the point. That is community created zombies that do not introduce a ridiculous disjunct between standard vanilla zombies and outrageously different and frighteninly subpar variants.

I would rather have entirely community made or entirely dev made, unless there was a partnership between that allowed select and skilled players to create and hand over extra variants to expand the vanilla experience without mods.

If modders can create this without any of what I suggested then happy days.

Can't say I have seen any better than the current HD redone zombies but the following might have something that may interest you.

Thank you Laz, I will give it a look

That's your own opinion of the game and your own taste, there's plenty of people who enjoy the new features (me included) and think that the general direction of the game is good. I know there are issues and things that are incomplete, or need to be balanced, but that's part of the process.

I envy Kuasimodo! He's like a stealth drone... he strikes from 40,000 feet and flies away!  :tongue:

It's not just about what's been added that people don't like (and I can assure you it isn't just me) - but also the things lost; that made this game truly something else, that saddens me and informs my opinion.

 

[Jost Amman]

It's not just about what's been added that people don't like (and I can assure you it isn't just me) - but also the things lost; that made this game truly something else, that saddens me and informs my opinion.

Again, your opinion. A lot of people miss LBD for example. For me, dropping LBD was one of the best choices TFP have made.

See? It's all a question of perspective, and my opinion is "informed" as well.

 

[unholyjoe]

Again, your opinion. A lot of people miss LBD for example. For me, dropping LBD was one of the best choices TFP have made.

See? It's all a question of perspective, and my opinion is "informed" as well.

i miss the game play when we were more interested in actually killing zombies and watching those numbers grow - rather then watching weapon stat numbers.

back in the day when you quietly hid on top of a roof at night only to have the damn thing come down because you opened your inventory and gave yourself away.

 

[KhaineGB]

i miss the game play when we were more interested in actually killing zombies and watching those numbers grow - rather then watching weapon stat numbers.

back in the day when you quietly hid on top of a roof at night only to have the damn thing come down because you opened your inventory and gave yourself away.

Back in the day, you had a ring of campfires to light up your base to stop the @%$#s running too...

 

[Crater Creator]

While true, I can’t guarantee anyone has had the fortitude to keep up with the conversation this long…

Always finish your Sham Chowder before visiting the forum, kids!

 

[Zombiepoptard]

I don't get why people perceive alot of these changes in A21 as a waste of dev time? who are you to quantify what is productive and what is not. I am glad they are working on all these things

Well probably because you don't know that they flip flop on a lot of these little changes and It's seems like they have been figuring stuff out with trial and error. I would like them to have their game design mapped out with some forethought, synergy and a grand scheme.

Examples: Learn by looting

1. Having the players only means of leveling up crafting is by looting. That would make it where if you aren't going into buildings at the get go you'll be falling behind.

2. In multiplayer maybe you're buddy would be left behind to build the base while you go looting. (Happens a lot in my playthroughs ) That means that the person that's searching through poi is getting crafting levels while you get nothing when your doing base building stuff. So the looter has the crafting levels and the base builder doesn't... There is only so much magazines to go around when you guys are looting. Having more player in one POI would spread the magazine loot thin which will be a negative to your player progression.

3. Tying skill points to loot makes it really hard to play with a loot hog. You would have to rely on your friends generosity to get magazines for you when he might want to use them too.

4. When a new player to the map comes into a matured server you have everybody giving him magazines trying to boost his crafting level up. If they have been playing long enough they probably have enough magazines to get you to max level. Some part of the pleaser in getting a reward is earning it. 

5. Why not just tie this stuff in with leveling and avoid all of these problems? Just have the magazines be a rare bonuses. 

6. Having a RNG bonus on stuff you perk into can influence a build that you didn't really want to go for. It adds to the pigeonholing that were getting with the current perk tree.

I have the forethought to think of these situations that WILL happen if Learn by Looting comes out. I don't have to play the update to learn how it will effect gameplay because I have a vision of how it will play out. 

All because they want to add something shiny in the loot cycle. Sorry but I attribute that to a lack of forethought.

It's not only a waste of dev time but it's a disruptive change that has little reward. Hopefully they'll make it a rare bonus. 

who are you 

I'm Zombiepoptard

 

[maxousara]

Here we go again. Bandits are (ENNEMI) not possible to deal with team or buy something with them. They're not like a trader they're ENNEMI. There objectif is to KILL the players not deal with him.

 

[KhaineGB]

1. Having the players only means of leveling up crafting is by looting. That would make it where if you aren't going into buildings at the get go you'll be falling behind.

I just want to highlight this as it's relevant to something I said earlier.

I mentioned the water thing being unecessary when TFP could just make a cooking pot required to boil water, and then make the pot hard to get (like loot only, or get a forge and make one). Laz_Man brought up how this could be problematic on MP, I assume due to the locust-like nature of players on MP servers looting absolutely EVERYTHING.

The Learn By Looting system will have the same issue. A completely new player, who likely doesn't know anyone on the server, would have an awful time levelling their skills as most POI's near the starting location will be absolutely picked clean.

 

[Roland]

Downhill.

Sorry you feel that way. 
 

Losing tonnes of good features and replacing it with out of place stuff like the drone (that I used once and shelved for its lag spiking) and needless fluff everywhere we don't need it (i.e street lamps) and nowhere where we do need it (more zombie models.)

It’s too bad features you personally loved didn’t make the cut and unfortunate that your priorities for the game are not the same as the developers’. 
 

Serious question - if no more zombies are added, are modders going to have access to create equal quality zombies; and support, where neccessary, to make and implement them?

They will only be limited by their talent and the tools they have access to. We don’t know what entity creation tools will be provided by TFP, if any. They’ve provided tools for POI creation and world building so far. There is no word yet on what else may or may not be provided. But there are already people using existing 3rd party tools to create and add entities. Quality will vary from creator to creator. The artists that create the in game entities are paid professionals who do it as their living. 
 

Have the devs considered allowing unpaid creators to submit models for the devs to polish and include in the game while its still in development?

Considered and declined long ago when similar suggestions for POI submissions were suggested in a very similar way that you have suggested zombie submissions.
 

They do not wish to follow that particular model of content creation. Instead, they have opted to hire people that have impressed them from time to time: Lazman for example who impressed with his POI designs and has been hired to join that team. 
 

 

[Zombiepoptard]

I just want to highlight this as it's relevant to something I said earlier.

I mentioned the water thing being unecessary when TFP could just make a cooking pot required to boil water, and then make the pot hard to get (like loot only, or get a forge and make one). Laz_Man brought up how this could be problematic on MP, I assume due to the locust-like nature of players on MP servers looting absolutely EVERYTHING.

The Learn By Looting system will have the same issue. A completely new player, who likely doesn't know anyone on the server, would have an awful time levelling their skills as most POI's near the starting location will be absolutely picked clean.

It's Learn By Questing at that point. 

If anything questing and quest rewards will help out a little with the Learn by Looting system. Maybe after you completing a quest you can choose what magazine you get along with the normal quest reward.  

Here we go again. Bandits are (ENNEMI) not possible to deal with team or buy something with them. They're not like a trader they're ENNEMI. There objectif is to KILL the players not deal with him.

They are planning on having factions and loyalties. Duke vs. White River. All though they might be just enemies now they maybe be another thing in the future when they role out the story.

 

[Roland]

I would like them to have their game design mapped out with some forethought, synergy and a grand scheme.

Oh good. It is. Individual features are not grand scheme. Grand scheme is “Player progression” and then the details of how the players progress can change and evolve all while keeping the grand scheme. We have had player progression since A11 and we always will because that and quests are the grand scheme for this hybrid genre game to have RPG elements noted in the roadmap for development. You look at an individual puzzle piece and think that is the whole puzzle. LBD was just method for character progression. We don’t have LBD any more (mostly) but we still do have character progression. Grand scheme maintained!

1. Having the players only means of leveling up crafting is by looting. That would make it where if you aren't going into buildings at the get go you'll be falling behind.

Looting is a key aspect of this game and it always has been. There is no getting around that fact. 
 

Also….falling behind whom or what? Who or what are you racing?

2. In multiplayer maybe you're buddy would be left behind to build the base while you go looting. (Happens a lot in my playthroughs ) That means that the person that's searching through poi is getting crafting levels while you get nothing when your doing base building stuff.

Does your buddy not feed you books now in A20?  It will be the same. If you are perking into different weapons than your buddy why would he want to read thiose magazines rather than bring them to you?

3. Tying skill points to loot makes it really hard to play with a loot hog. You would have to rely on your friends generosity to get magazines for you when he might want to use them too.

Incorrect. Skill points are not tied to looting. Only crafting recipes are tied to looting. Your loot hog buddy would have to be an idiot to read magazines for things he was not perked into and you were. Even if he did it would only mean that he would craft that item for you and give it to you. Most likely if you aren’t looting at all in A20 you are being given weapons that are found that you have perked into anyway so not much of a change. 
 

4. When a new player to the map comes into a matured server you have everybody giving him magazines trying to boost his crafting level up. If they have been playing long enough they probably have enough magazines to get you to max level. Some part of the pleaser in getting a reward is earning it. 

That’s up to the new player. You think new players on mature servers aren’t already being given permission to gear up out of fully stocked crates?  If they care about earning it on their own then they’ll refuse. If they don’t then they won’t. 

5. Why not just tie this stuff in with leveling and avoid all of these problems?

These problems don’t exist anywhere but in the fears and worries you’ve concocted about something you haven’t even tried yet— except your loot hogging buddies. They apparently exist and you can take care of that right now with a new server password…

6. Having a RNG bonus on stuff you perk into can influence a build that you didn't really want to go for. It adds to the pigeonholing that were getting with the current perk tree.

There is no pidgeon holing with the magazines. They simply are the means for access to crafting recipes. Nothing more. You can still freely choose where to spend your points and you still gain those points by doing activities like building and mining.

I have a vision of how it will play out. 

Look Nostradamus, your vision is clouded at best. You don’t have all the variables and I had to correct you on how the magazines are even going to work.  I get your concern but you’re going to need to try it.

A completely new player, who likely doesn't know anyone on the server, would have an awful time levelling their skills as most POI's near the starting location will be absolutely picked clean.

Thats a nope. A new player might have a tough time learning new recipes but they would have zero problems skilling up. Skilling up is still governed by xp gained by mining, harvesting, building, killing, trading, etc. just like in A20.

Maybe he can ask in global chat if anyone will make him a blue stone axe since he can’t craft one himself while he skills himself up normally. Or maybe (since he doesn’t know anyone on that server anyway) he can find and join a more appropriate one. 

 

[KhaineGB]

Thats a nope. A new player might have a tough time learning new recipes but they would have zero problems skilling up. Skilling up is still governed by xp gained by mining, harvesting, building, killing, trading, etc. just like in A20.

Maybe he can ask in global chat if anyone will make him a blue stone axe since he can’t craft one himself while he skills himself up normally. Or maybe (since he doesn’t know anyone on that server anyway) he can find and join a more appropriate one. 

Sorry Roland, that's incorrect... on several counts.

In A20, you do quests and get XP and then buy STATS and perks to level your crafting. As per the posts here, you don't do that. It's all tied to this new LBL system.

If you're tying recipes and crafting to skills that MUST be learnt from a book, then that player will be at a disadvantage joining a running server where stuff has been picked clean.

Take it from someone who made an overhaul where people need to go out looting and then tried joining a server and having a hard stall on progress for nearly a week, so I gave up and spent skill points instead.

It is a legitimate problem, which is why I put in the ability to BUY those perks so players wouldn't be screwed by joining a server later.

 

[Roland]

Maybe after you completing a quest you can choose what magazine you get along with the normal quest reward.

 
when you complete a quest you are usually given a choice between a bundle of mystery magazines, one named magazine, and then a typical reward like antibiotics or ammo or whatever. You have to choose. You don’t get mags with something else. 
 

The bundle is always nine magazines: three each of three random magazines. Your perk bonus does not affect the random draw for the bundle afaik. 

 

[Jost Amman]

If you're tying recipes and crafting to skills that MUST be learnt from a book, then that player will be at a disadvantage joining a running server where stuff has been picked clean.

But wouldn't they find magazines while looting quest POIs anyway?

They can spam lvl-1 quests with a trader and pick clean those POIs; I'm sure they'll find plenty of magazines for whatever perk they put points into.

 

[Roland]

In A20, you do quests and get XP and then buy STATS and perks to level your crafting. As per the posts here, you don't do that. It's all tied to this new LBL system.

You misinterpreted those posts then. 
 

Perks and skill points in A21 are still governed by xp which is earned by completing quests and gameplay activities exactly as we do now in A20. 
 

Recipes for crafting are no longer governed by perks. Instead you find magazines that unlock the recipes. 
 

Magazines have nothing to do with skill points or leveling up or improving your stats. Magazines only determine whether you can craft something. 
 

Someone who builds all the time will still skill up (probably faster than someone purely looting) and can become the best at shotguns. But they will be limited to whatever kind of shotgun they can either craft, buy, or find (or is found for them). 

 

[KhaineGB]

But wouldn't they find magazines while looting quest POIs anyway?

They can spam lvl-1 quests with a trader and pick clean those POIs; I'm sure they'll find plenty of magazines for whatever perk they put points into.

It still puts you at a massive disadvantage compared to starting on a clean server, unless you get lucky and get a crack-a-book as your quest (which starts at T2).
 

You misinterpreted those posts then. 
 

Perks and skill points in A21 are still governed by xp which is earned by completing quests and gameplay activities exactly as we do now in A20. 
 

Recipes for crafting are no longer governed by perks. Instead you find magazines that unlock the recipes. 
 

Magazines have nothing to do with skill points or leveling up or improving your stats. Magazines only determine whether you can craft something. 
 

Someone who builds all the time will still skill up (probably faster than someone purely looting) and can become the best at shotguns. But they will be limited to whatever kind of shotgun they can either craft, buy, or find (or is found for them). 

No I didn't. I think you misinterpreted mine.

You CANNOT get those magazines you are referencing easily on a server that has already been running for a while. Therefore you can't learn recipes, and you can't level your quality going by the screenshots shared.

THAT is what I was talking about. It will be a major thorn in MP play.

Which is also why, earlier in this thread when I mentioned that and it was skipped over, it would be better for TFP to lower the total amount of levels of those magazine "skills" and add the ability to purchase them via points.