PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary
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Matt115
New member
Spam crafting was good and realistic - you want do make good tool you need make them a lot to finaly learn it how to do good. That's why technical school take 4 years xd . LBL forcing for... looting which is annoying and "filler" content
Agree - make 100 axes to get iron pickaxe then 100 iron to get steel would be better.No, what was wrong with "spam crafting" was being able to unlock steel because you spammed stone axes.
With regards to how "knowledge acquisition really works", I'm correct about that as well, but I can see why you as an academic, believe knowledge can only be acquired by being taught. That's simply not the case however. In the real world, people learn things by trial and error as well, and frankly they learn more that way than from books.
Doing x works, doing y doesn't, so we do x. Maybe rust buddies continue to do y, but thankfully they aren't the majority.
Hell, look at animals. Eat the brightly colored frog, get sick. That's not taught by a book. Chasing a porcupine is a bad idea. Also not in a book. Humans are the same, we're just more sophisticated about it. Sure, we *can* acquire knowledge from books but we only get good at something by doing it. Go watch a drywall video and patch your first hole, lemme know how well you do compared to a drywall guy.
Look at the evolution of a pistol. Going from musket to today's semi auto, they're two completely different technologies but rooted in the same idea. That technology developed over time from doing, not reading, and as I mentioned in my op we simply accelerate that for game purposes.
...also, good morning. You up early or late?
It was good - because you have alternatives : looting, quests or mining. now only looting and quests are effective. Devs wanted to force players into looting too much. Which is the most boring thing in this game and just neccesary waste time. So that's why LBD was the best
Morloc
Arch Necromancer
beerfly
Colony Rounder
Magic insurance or insuring magic ? This is the question.There are some new theories...
-Arch Necromancer Morloc
beerfly
1984-2023
I got some weird bug/glitch that f'ed my savegame it seems.
I was just driving on my motorcycle over mountains etc. and all of sudden the game became very choppy/laggy (very few frames).
But for some reason I was driving insanely fast on my bike, like 10's of meters in a sec from standing still, but again, very very low frames.
So I quit the game, restarted my computer and the bug is still here... so I guess it's in my savegame...
Anyone had this and is there a fix for it?
I was just driving on my motorcycle over mountains etc. and all of sudden the game became very choppy/laggy (very few frames).
But for some reason I was driving insanely fast on my bike, like 10's of meters in a sec from standing still, but again, very very low frames.
So I quit the game, restarted my computer and the bug is still here... so I guess it's in my savegame...
Anyone had this and is there a fix for it?
q123
Active member
For any chance, do you have a drone? If yes, than it's most likely this issue:
Not sure if it is fixed in A21.1...
Maybe you are able to manually fix it with deleting your "drones.dat".
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mstdv inc
New member
I have several times encountered a sharp drop in fps, blurring of the image and teleportation by 20-30 meters during a fast ride.
The world did not collapse, the saves remained untouched after that.
hmm, it really only happened when the drone was flying after me..
q123
Active member
the following is from A21.1 b12 EXP Patchnotes:
Junk drone path smoothing, better door and teleport decision reaction
not sure about, but it may help here (?) we will see
THANKS for this!
I guess that was the problem, because without the drones file, everything works like it should be again. Weird bug.
Thanks again!
But, since I don't want to completely give up on finding the drone:
With the file still there, I used Debug menu to teleport myself back to the PIO that I cleared for a quest, because all went to @%$# when I drove back to the trader. When I got there, everything was fine again with the FPS, but no drone. Then I used the fly mode to go to the trader again to see if the drone was anywhere on the route there. At some point, all when wrong again FPS wise. Used teleport again to the PIO and FPS was fine again.
Guess the drone is truly lost for me.
Time to spawn in a new one.
zztong
Well-known member
I don't think that's the whole story, or even the correct story. Yes, there is truth to "practice makes perfect" and "necessity is the mother in invention." But they're not the only sources of the information, techniques, and ideas that lead to improvement. People learn much more quickly as part of a community where they trade information, techniques, and ideas. Magazines and books would be really valuable in allowing our survivors to learn more quickly than just starting with medieval blacksmithy and reinventing centuries worth of wheels.
And Trade Schools do not involve extensive repetitive manufacture. They have lots of topics to cover. That said, a career machinist has lots of tricks of the trade that separate them from the fresh graduate. LBD certainly was part of that machinist's education to date.
But I don't think this is supposed to be a perfect simulation of education, but a game instead. To me, the best argument for mixing in some LBD beside the LBL approach is (1) the magazine points offer a decent enough system for accounting for an accumulation of knowledge, and (2) some LBD tasks would both give the player some agency and break up any monotony associated with collecting magazines alone.
Dreyseth
Active member
Trader Joel is struggling to pay the bills; he always comes up a little short.
Secret Stash may be gone, but Trader Joel will do special deals under the table.
Trader Joel apears to be ahead, compared to the other traders.
Trader Joel is very wise; he tries to see things from different perspectives.
Trader Joel is a prominent advocate for Learn By Praying.
Riamus
Well-known member
If you are parked into one thing, your bonus is only for that one thing. If you perk into multiple things, it gets split. If you are going to get one magazine and are parked into only one thing, you have a good chance of getting that magazine. If you have multiple perks, it could be anything. Because you stop collecting magazines you have maxed out, it makes collecting other magazines faster. This is probably why they are progressing faster. Even so, it sounds like a dull way to play the game so I know I wouldn't ever game the system that way.
As I mentioned yesterday, the game only represents getting better at something when talking about quality levels. Everything else is a new skill. So having LBD for quality levels could make sense but not for everything else. The problem is that everyone would max their quality levels in a very short time, which is what they don't want.
The difficulty is making something that works well without it being too easy. LBD is notoriously easy for crafting. All it takes is time and resources to craft tons of things. They isn't any challenge.cool idea,
a "mixed" system where you get better with lbd up to a certain threshold, and then you have to find some written knowledgebase to get to the next level.
lbd could also be devided into crafting and also time of real usage, to prevent "spam crafting lbd".
I'd take it.
Damn one day I have to start learning how to make my own mods.
...but how would I start?
Reading a book about coding first, or just start typing totally uneducated nonsense into the .xmls and see if I get it to run?
We do have a mix in the game already... Everything but crafting is basically a form of LBD. It's is just abstracted (experience affects everything and not specific skills).
Your opinion is that grinding crafting is better. Others hate that. Others think that questing is better. You appear to hate that. The problem is that people like and dislike different things. No matter which way they make the game, there will be people who don't like it. They have chosen a specific path and that path includes looting and questing as core elements. And with each new version through gold, that will get more and more apparent.
Regarding mining, I've never really understood this issue. The idea seems to be that you can play the game where you do nothing except mine. This is still possible. The change is that you need magazines to craft better tools. If you want nothing to do with looting magazines and you aren't in a group who will either give you those magazines or craft you better tools, then you still have the option of mods or using the creative menu. I wouldn't even consider the creative menu cheating because you are essentially wanting to play the sandbox part of the game, which is what the creative menu is for.
Adam the Waster
Well-known member
Guppycur
Well-known member
Two quick points. First, if someone has fun spam crafting what's the harm?
Second, you could introduce a high failure rate that scales down as you get better, so you're wasting materials.
...point is, there are ways to balance it, but nay sayers need to get their heads out of the a16 box.
LBD was implemented poorly, which is why it failed.
...heck, the devs could learn by doing.
So I really wasn't looking forward to this update at all, thought I was going to hate it, but I gotta admit I am really enjoying it!
I'm not thrilled with the magazines but they aren't as bad as I thought they were gonna be. Not thrilled with some of the more gamey stuff, but I think somewhere between A19 and A20 I just accepted it and moved on.
Like Guppycur said above me, LBD isn't necessarily bad but it was poorly implemented and instead of fixing it they opted to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as seems to be par for the course around here.
The POIs as always keep getting better and better, serious kudos to the team that does them!
One huge gripe I have though, WTAF were y'all thinking with the entitygroups.xml ???
I can't figure out how to properly xpath what I want to do and went the brute force method of copying the entire file and modding it directly (which I hate to do) and even trying to do simple find/replace was serious effort. Like I'd have written a py script if I knew how much trouble it was going to be. I just wanted to remove a few mobs from hordes and tweak the vulture spawns, but the "simplified" file is a disaster to work with, not to mention how many #!@*&% horde group gamestages do we really need?
I'm not thrilled with the magazines but they aren't as bad as I thought they were gonna be. Not thrilled with some of the more gamey stuff, but I think somewhere between A19 and A20 I just accepted it and moved on.
Like Guppycur said above me, LBD isn't necessarily bad but it was poorly implemented and instead of fixing it they opted to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as seems to be par for the course around here.
The POIs as always keep getting better and better, serious kudos to the team that does them!
One huge gripe I have though, WTAF were y'all thinking with the entitygroups.xml ???
I can't figure out how to properly xpath what I want to do and went the brute force method of copying the entire file and modding it directly (which I hate to do) and even trying to do simple find/replace was serious effort. Like I'd have written a py script if I knew how much trouble it was going to be. I just wanted to remove a few mobs from hordes and tweak the vulture spawns, but the "simplified" file is a disaster to work with, not to mention how many #!@*&% horde group gamestages do we really need?
Riamus
Well-known member
I never said there was anything wrong with people liking to spam craft stuff. I said that some people like it and some people hate it. Neither side is more right or wrong than the other. It is entirely an opinion and therefore cannot be right or wrong.Two quick points. First, if someone has fun spam crafting what's the harm?
Second, you could introduce a high failure rate that scales down as you get better, so you're wasting materials.
...point is, there are ways to balance it, but nay sayers need to get their heads out of the a16 box.
LBD was implemented poorly, which is why it failed.
...heck, the devs could learn by doing.
Making it more annoying by wasting more resources isn't going to make it any more enjoyable for people who hate the process. The process doesn't change by doing that. It only makes you waste even more resources than you did previously. Those who like the process might like that but that doesn't make it more likely to change people's minds about whether or not it is good.
LBD for crafting in every game I have seen has been implemented poorly. I've yet to see any where it was not a grind. If you like the grind, that is fine. But if you don't, you aren't going to like LBD crafting. It necessarily requires crafting a ton of stuff you have no need for and wasting resources to do so.
LBD is good for skills that you use regularly and not ones that are used for a single purpose occasionally. Crafting is the latter unless you are playing a game where you are specifically a crafter (and likely merchant) and that is the actual intended role rather than a self-imposed role. You will generally want to make only what you or your teammates need and unless forced to make other things or more things just to fulfill a LBD to make other things you want, you would have no reason to do so.
Maybe someone can give me a good reason why some people are so focused on LBD for crafting. In what way does it actually benefit crafting? I don't mean what makes you personally like it as that is an opinion that anyone can have regardless which side of the issue you are on. I mean, what tangible benefit does it offer over other options? Grinding isn't a benefit for a lot of people and can be a negative. Immersion is iffy at best because you can absolutely learn to craft by reading instructions. Balancing isn't a reason because that can be done with any system regardless whether or not TFP does a good job at it or not. Speed at learning seems to be what a lot of people who want it are going for but there isn't any real reason why a game should offer a speed mode. Games can be enjoyed without a fast track to the end of the game. I am really curious what real benefit it offers. And, to be clear, I'm not saying that the current magazine system is great. I'm saying there are a variety of possible options that do not include LBD for crafting and one of those could be suggested instead of LBD and could get more support. I personally could get behind another option more easily than LBD.
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Jost Amman
Well-known member
Why would Pluto be a planet? I don't get it. :suspicious:You mean about Pluto being no planet? Yes, what a shame
4sheetzngeegles
Well-known member
@Jost Amman
I understood the basics of the statement, when I quoted you i should have only used
the second comment. It was more of a self reflection. So many new aspects have been
added,changed and removed. I found myself focusing more on trying to use all the new
ideas and tools, and modes of play to more clearly understand some of the conversations.
But I realized that i wasn't actually doing what first drew me to the game. Simply surviving
and wandering through the wilderness. I like the views, landscapes and panoramas. The other
aspects are appendages or enhancements to make it a more well rounded game, "personal opinion"
But I love the root aspect of explore, and don't die.
From many of the conversations that I have read, I agree with you, the simple concept of
"just survive and enjoy the journey" has taken second place to all other modes of play. That
may be because the game has grown and will continue to because of the Pimp team breaking new
ground at an almost exponential rate.
When I read it, I realized that I had gone away from my own basic play.
I understood the basics of the statement, when I quoted you i should have only used
the second comment. It was more of a self reflection. So many new aspects have been
added,changed and removed. I found myself focusing more on trying to use all the new
ideas and tools, and modes of play to more clearly understand some of the conversations.
But I realized that i wasn't actually doing what first drew me to the game. Simply surviving
and wandering through the wilderness. I like the views, landscapes and panoramas. The other
aspects are appendages or enhancements to make it a more well rounded game, "personal opinion"
But I love the root aspect of explore, and don't die.
From many of the conversations that I have read, I agree with you, the simple concept of
"just survive and enjoy the journey" has taken second place to all other modes of play. That
may be because the game has grown and will continue to because of the Pimp team breaking new
ground at an almost exponential rate.
When I read it, I realized that I had gone away from my own basic play.
Javabean867
Well-known member
As long as they don't get rid of the derpy deer head bobble as they walk I'll be happy.
Guppycur
Well-known member
Why not both? Keep the magazines, let the spam crafters spam; hell add the ability to buy training from a trader.
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