PC Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Kosmic Kerman]

In my last playthrough I ran unarmed with heavy armor so yeah it chipped away pretty quick. Built quite a bit to. I can understand this for thirst but not so much for hunger, at least at the rate it is in vanilla. My diet consisted of bacon and eggs. Drugs for dessert on horde night.
 

Bacon and eggs are essentially an entry level food. If this is what you were eating in mid-game no wonder you had hunger issues. The trade off for not engaging in the farming/recipe mechanics is having to eat more. As soon as you start farming and unlock the recipes for meat stew or equivalent, food becomes more sustainable and more nourishing. The ability to grow corn/potatoes and make meat stew is one of the break points in the game: you no longer have to worry about gathering eggs and you get more from each meal.

 

[Vintorez]

Made a thread in Pimp Dreams but figured I'd mention it here since it's a pretty small thing; Should there always be at least one thing in sealed crates and treasure chests when playing with reduced loot settings? When I set loot to say 50%, I expect such containers to have half as much stuff, not for half of them to be empty. I normally enjoy survival games with reduced loot but that one quirk kinda turns me off from it in this game.

 

[Ouch Quit It]

Coughs *AIRPORT POI* Coughs

 

[Jost Amman]

-wiring is the opposite of intuitive for me, I keep cutting existing branches by accident, and then trying to fix it often leads to an even bigger mess.

That's probably because of your talons...

 

[Grue]

Point 1: Player Choice

If player choice is of interest to you then you will be pleased to know that the changes have increased player choice by a fair amount. In the past, due to having infinite water from the very start there was zero choice for how to utilize your water ever. You always had plenty to do everything. In A21 you will have to make some choices for how you utilize water. This is a very good thing.

As for dew collectors they are absolutely optional. You can find portable water in loot and you can purchase it from the trader. For drinking you can go to a stream or lake or even a nearby gutter and drink your fill. You can survive at a very basic level purely on what you scavenge or trade for. Now if you want the luxury and quality of life of having infinite water to be able to once again reach the point where you have enough to do whatever you want with it without needing to make tough choices, you may create a dew collector farm which will see you stocked with all the water you'll need. Its a choice....a player choice.

Point 2: The concept of removing containers that hold water in order to force players to use the dew collector is bad

This isn't a new concept. There are no containers for any consumable in the game. Glue, gas, stew, steak and potatoes, pie, canned food, acid, first aid kits, repair kits, and more are consumables that are depicted as being in a container and yet no container actually exists. You can't make a huge pot full of stew and then craft a stack of bowls to go scoop out stew to carry around with you and then bring back the empty bowls to scoop out more stew. You can't fill up your empty gas canisters at a pump and then pour the gas into your vehicle and then bring back the empty canisters to fill them up again. None of the consumables in the game that are depicted in your inventory as being in a container give back that empty container so that you can refill it and they never have. How have you and others possibly been able to continue playing the game without all of these empty containers to be refilled? I will tell you that however it is you have been managing to figure out glue and the rest, you will quickly adapt to water since it will be behaving the same exact way every other single consumable in the game behaves and has behaved for years and years.

The change is not to force players to use dew collectors. You don't have to use dew collectors technically. The change is to bring consistency to the game across the board and at the same time close the book on infinite water beginning at day one. 

Point 3: There's no need to waste dev time on the craft system with magazines

Water under the bridge. The feature was done months ago. Now that it is done they WILL release it to their early access players to evaluate and determine how it should be tinkered. They are extremely happy with this latest evolution of the crafting/player progression system. Just as you stated that the hybrid of spending points and collecting schematics was a good balance they will get to a great balance of skillpoints, schematics, and magazines after several months of obtaining player feedback about the system from people who have spent time playing with it instead of making a decision to scrap it from people who are just imagining worst case possibilities using incomplete knowledge and guesses.

Point 4: Players want to play in a Sandbox

Players can play in a sandbox still. But you have to understand that a true sandbox is a play area without rules or constraints so that the player can do whatever they desire. For this game that means you enable godmode and creative mode. Those two modes enabled make 7 Days to Die into a true sandbox experience. In its default form 7 Days to Die is not meant to be a pure sandbox. It is meant to be a game with rules, limits, and consequences. With godmode and creative mode enabled you never need water or food at all and you can build anything out of anything with anything the game has--including some dev tools not available in the default game.  You can do whatever you want. You can fly around and spawn a bunch of zombies surrounding a POI and then fly away turn off godmode and approach the POI killing all the zombies guarding it. That's just one example but the sandbox options are endless. If players truly want a sandbox it is always available to them. When they're ready to play a game that has rules and limits and choices that is always waiting for them as well.

Water:

Point 1: Your alternatives to being able to collect water from the environment is basically the equivalent to saying "Let them Eat Cake".

You can loot or buy any resource, but that is a good excuse to remove chopping wood and mining from the game? Obviously not.

Point 2: Even if the goal is to remove all "containers", that does not necessitate removal of the ability to collect surface water.

Balance:

Point 3: Basically all you are saying is here "Too late now! Lay back and take it, it will be over soon."

Point 4:  If the game is so bloody broken that your best solution is to "tuRn oN GoD MOdE", then what does that say about the balance of the game?

Your playstyle is not typical and by catering to your playerstyle the devs would be cutting out the lionshare of the community. Looting is a staple of this game and always has been. The changes in A21 do enhance scavenging and that change will positively impact the vast majority of players who do enjoy that part of the game. If you really do feel like TFP should listen to its player base then honestly you cannot deny that enhancing the looting and exploring portions of the game is them doing exactly that. You may not like it but you have to admit that "minimal looting" is not going to be the norm for the typical player of 7 Days to Die.

You really mean to tell me that I am the only one who likes building bases? Or mining? Or crafting?

Someone has to stay home to build, at the very least, a functional horde base for the group.

Or is base building "not the norm" in your opinion?

Do you just run from one POI to the next looting piles of garbage with no place to store any of it?

 

[faatal]

Made a thread in Pimp Dreams but figured I'd mention it here since it's a pretty small thing; Should there always be at least one thing in sealed crates and treasure chests when playing with reduced loot settings? When I set loot to say 50%, I expect such containers to have half as much stuff, not for half of them to be empty. I normally enjoy survival games with reduced loot but that one quirk kinda turns me off from it in this game.

It depends. A container with 10 feathers would reduce to 5, but if there was going to be 1 item in the chest, then you now have a 50% chance of it being there. The system does not try to replace your 1 item, with a crappier 1 item.

 

[Vintorez]

It depends. A container with 10 feathers would reduce to 5, but if there was going to be 1 item in the chest, then you now have a 50% chance of it being there. The system does not try to replace your 1 item, with a crappier 1 item.

Maybe it has to do with how it calculates, like if it goes through each item individually or applies to the container as a whole. Like if it would generate 4 pieces of single-stack gear, does it factor those items against each other to try to reduce it to 2 or does it have a 50/50 chance of having 4 or 0?

Admittedly it's been a year or so since I've tried a reduced loot run, but the lower level PoI end chests and containers like weapon bags definitely felt more lacking than I expected. Maybe the current system unfairly reduces the frequency of single stack items?

Though now that you mention it it would be kinda cool if it could replace gear with crappier items, like a bad roll causing a container to be treated as if it was opened with a lower gamestage or converting loot into their scrapped components.

 

[meilodasreh]

Someone has to stay home to build, at the very least, a functional horde base for the group.

Or is base building "not the norm" in your opinion?

Do you just run from one POI to the next looting piles of garbage with no place to store any of it?

Aren't you sticking a bit too much to the extremes here?

base building is of course one strong aspect in the game, as well as looting always has been. Or mining. And fighting. And the list goes on.

The new system does encourage looting more, but still has to balance between all the aspects,

because in single player you just have to do them all to survive...and of course this variety of different aspects is mostly what makes the fun in the game.

People who do exclusively one aspect have to be part of a group that does the rest, they all depend on each other.

Your playmates depend on you building/fortifying the base, 

while you depend on them bringing you materials, food, guns, ammo,...

So why can't they bring you the corresponding magazines about building/crafting they find?

They will all find few because there's a bigger chance that they find the ones they specced in...but they're a group, so it should add up for you one lonely housekeeper hero.

That's probably because of your talons...

yeah I might also have forgotten to admit that I can't help nibbling on the insulation to keep my beak sharp...you know...habits

 

[Roland]

Water:

Point 1: Your alternatives to being able to collect water from the environment is basically the equivalent to saying "Let them Eat Cake".

You can loot or buy any resource, but that is a good excuse to remove chopping wood and mining from the game? Obviously not.

I don't know what you are trying to say by the "Let them eat cake" reference. Your analogy for removing chopping wood and mining from the game are poor. The ability to harvest water has not been removed. Build some dew collectors and you will harvest plenty of water that can be carried around. Find jars of water in POIs and you are harvesting water that can be carried around. Go to a river and drink your fill which is harvesting water as well. That water can't be carried away but it is harvested and used. 

Point 2: Even if the goal is to remove all "containers", that does not necessitate removal of the ability to collect surface water.

What necessitates the ability to collect surface water is the infinite supply that it represents. Infinite anything in a survival game is bad news. It may be realistic but it destroys the gameplay. Having actually played it I can attest that it is an interesting and rewarding gameplay loop at least for me. I suspect that most people will like it once the change settles in. For the rest, it shouldn't be hard to mod infinite free water supply on day 1 back into your game.

Point 3: Basically all you are saying is here "Too late now! Lay back and take it, it will be over soon."

This only makes you angry because you refuse to accept your role in early access. As long as you disagree and fight against the idea that you signed up to test out the experimental changes the developers make to the game you are going to be perplexed over why TFP changes things without asking us for permission. For 20 alphas now the developers have been making changes and giving them to us to test and play with and then give feedback based on actual play time. I can't think of a single time they reversed something they already implemented before releasing it because some people objected to the theory of it all. Changes and adjustments will be made only after plenty of time has been spent by the larger community playing with the new features and we've moved past all the kneejerk "I hate change" responses and actual constructive feedback can be gathered. So yeah, nothing anyone says will prevent the new changes from being released for A21. People are going to get to try it out and nobody is going to convince the devs to just throw out the latest developments just because it sounds bad.

Point 4:  If the game is so bloody broken that your best solution is to "tuRn oN GoD MOdE", then what does that say about the balance of the game?

There is the game and then there is the sandbox. You are confusing the two. The game doesn't need Godmode and it only has elements of a sandbox. The game has limitations and rules the player must follow (or break if they want to cheese something). The game is not intended to be a pure sandbox where you can just do anything and suffer no consequences. I never said the game needs Godmode. You either misunderstood or are intentionally twisting my words.

You really mean to tell me that I am the only one who likes building bases? Or mining? Or crafting?

Someone has to stay home to build, at the very least, a functional horde base for the group.

Or is base building "not the norm" in your opinion?

Do you just run from one POI to the next looting piles of garbage with no place to store any of it?

No, that's not what I said at all. Base building is awesome and I'd say that if you include POI upgrading with building a base from scratch as "building bases" then it very much is the norm for most people to engage in one or both of those activities. In our group we upgrade a POI for our everyday crafting base and we build a horde night base from scratch so we do both.

What I did say (and I suspect you know it full well) is that completely ignoring looting and refusing to do any scavenging or exploring at all is not the norm. I stand by that statement. I am convinced that the majority of players enjoys doing a variety of activities in the game and that exploring poi's and looting them for stuff is very popular.

If you are on a team and some are doing all the building and others are out looting predominately that is also normal and fine. As a team you are getting all those activities done. The looters will bring back magazines because it will make sense for everyone on the team to specialize in different magazines. Having everyone read whatever they find themselves will be extremely foolish and as soon as people start playing they will realize this. 5 people all reading Sharp Sticks magazine means all five will be able to craft an orange wooden spear. But giving one person all the Sharp Sticks magazines means that one person will be able to craft top tier spears for everyone on the team. There is zero incentive to read all magazines yourself when on a team as that will horribly dilute the magazines. It may not seem that way when thinking of magazines in terms of current A20 books but when teams start playing they will instantly realize that the only thing that makes sense is to divide up who will craft what and then funnel magazines to each team member. Meanwhile builders will still probably lead their teammates in xp farming as they upgrade blocks as they build...

 

[unholyjoe]

Roland, the best part i like about no more jars is..

1. i dont have a cabinet full of empty jars like in previous alphas.

2. i dont have to worry about going to the desert to get sand to make glass and then forge the jars.

3. less crap taking up needed space in inventory or storage chests.

4. if thirsty stop by any body of water and drink a handful or 2 or take out a jar or so of good water from dew collector.

 

[Roland]

Roland, the best part i like about no more jars is..

1. i dont have a cabinet full of empty jars like in previous alphas.

2. i dont have to worry about going to the desert to get sand to make glass and then forge the jars.

3. less crap taking up needed space in inventory or storage chests.

4. if thirsty stop by any body of water and drink a handful or 2 or take out a jar or so of good water from dew collector.

For me, the best part is that without them the loot containers that used to have them have much better and more useful stuff. Whenever a I watch an A20 streamer open up cupboards and pull out empty bottle after empty bottle I feel like throwing up into an empty bottle.

 

[crazywildfire]

Roland, the best part i like about no more jars is..

1. i dont have a cabinet full of empty jars like in previous alphas.

2. i dont have to worry about going to the desert to get sand to make glass and then forge the jars.

3. less crap taking up needed space in inventory or storage chests.

4. if thirsty stop by any body of water and drink a handful or 2 or take out a jar or so of good water from dew collector.

1- jars stacked so high that was never truly a problem lol.

2- as many jars in the world never once did I go collect sand just to make jars. Actually I don't recall ever making jars period even less 100 on loot abundance lol.

3- again jars stacked so high never had to make a hard choice in storage to throw them out. Never made an extra storage box because of to many jars.... inventory meh takes up one spot. Never took more then one spot by the time I made it back to base to empty inventory due to other items filled it up not jars.

4- sorry that dont really defend empty jars. One will still most likely carry water with them as it will be cleaner to drink then open water sources. So not sure what this one has to do with empty jars. But ok

.......

But I do see what you trying to do and all good just not really good examples. I still stick by my statement on how I feel this. I'm not for it but not against it. It just meh to me. 

Edit- back to #1 reading back and seeing what Roland said. You mean when looting? In that case meh it part of looting isn't it? What fun is it to always find good stuff? Idk that just me. Everyone is different. 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Propably already been answered and/or discussed or i missed the answer, but i just realized that strength is still a must in A21 unless you want to spend a lot more time on mining than necessary? So nothing really changes with strength if playing SP.

Unless every attribute also get´s a mining skill like planned with flurry of blows.

 

[Roland]

Edit- back to #1 reading back and seeing what Roland said. You mean when looting? In that case meh it part of looting isn't it? What fun is it to always find good stuff? Idk that just me. Everyone is different. 

Well, relatively speaking good stuff. Its not all OP stuff at all but it is useful stuff. More seeds and raw veggies. Magazines. Crafting ingredients that you will use. It's hard to say why but empty bottles were always kind of meh maybe because after Day 1 or 2 you already had all you would ever need so they were just needless useless placeholders that are now gone so you are finding things that while technically junk it is stuff you can use and need.

It is much more rewarding without the empty bottles. You may wish for them when most of what you find has some usefulness to it and you think, why do I always get good stuff now? This sucks! But so far I haven't missed them being gone from the loot tables.

Propably already been answered and/or discussed or i missed the answer, but i just realized that strength is still a must in A21 unless you want to spend a lot more time on mining than necessary? So nothing really changes with strength if playing SP.

Unless every attribute also get´s a mining skill like planned with flurry of blows.

No...for whatever reason they think you must be strong in order to mine well. The audacity!

 

[Riamus]

I know it's just a small detail... but I'd rather have them add a new type of item named "ruined book/magazine" that you can scrap to paper. Lots of people complain about finding tons of paper in the bookshelves of a Crack a Book store, and don't understand the paper represents ruined books and magazines.

That would add a bit of "realism" IMO and ease players into understanding why so much scrap.

It does definitely add to the RP value of the game to have something like that instead of just paper.  That said, it isn't an uncommon conversation to just call garbage paper products "paper".  I am currently playing Encased and you often find "paper" in various places where it clearly would be some specific paper item rather than just paper.  But it works. People understand what it means.  The complaints people have about getting paper in bookstores is that you get so much of it and so few schematics or magazines.  Fishing it to ruined book isn't going to stop the complaints.  The complaints aren't about the name, but about how much "junk" you get.  From the sounds of things, this won't be a problem in A21 as paper will be less common as magazines start to become more common.

 

[armidil0]

I just want to ask a clarifying question, there's no javelin type weapon to replace the current spear power attack? Like a thrown only weapon, under the spear perks.

I think it could fill a niche for silent non bow short/mid range attacks.

For the hitting a zombie through the hole in a door thing: does that work with clubs and sledgehammers too? Or just stabbing weapons and guns?

 

[Blake_]

I just want to ask a clarifying question, there's no javelin type weapon to replace the current spear power attack? Like a thrown only weapon, under the spear perks.

I think it could fill a niche for silent non bow short/mid range attacks.

For the hitting a zombie through the hole in a door thing: does that work with clubs and sledgehammers too? Or just stabbing weapons and guns?

I did love the throwing mechanic, as annoying as losing a modded spear from time to time could be .  I would like the feature back, or at least as a legendary effect, but with a twist: an autoretrieve mod, like a rope or a chain or something that prevents us from losing the weapon and places it in your inventory upon throwing it (if full, it tosses the spear into the ground next to you). 

How awesome would that be?

As for your question, they did say yes, the holes are for every weapon, but don't expect 100% accuracy with weapons like a sledge, or rather you can expect it but due to the glancing blows it could also damage the hole/door itself.

 

[Grue]

Aren't you sticking a bit too much to the extremes here?

base building is of course one strong aspect in the game, as well as looting always has been. Or mining. And fighting. And the list goes on.

The new system does encourage looting more, but still has to balance between all the aspects,

because in single player you just have to do them all to survive...and of course this variety of different aspects is mostly what makes the fun in the game.

People who do exclusively one aspect have to be part of a group that does the rest, they all depend on each other.

Your playmates depend on you building/fortifying the base, 

while you depend on them bringing you materials, food, guns, ammo,...

So why can't they bring you the corresponding magazines about building/crafting they find?

They will all find few because there's a bigger chance that they find the ones they specced in...but they're a group, so it should add up for you one lonely housekeeper hero.

Granted it's probably not the majority of people, but neither is it an edge case for people who play in groups to divide their labor, for example on a community server supporting a streamer. Or even solo gamers who want to play a low-loot, self-sufficient type of game.

My point is to shine a light on the fact that not everyone plays the game as a roving murder-hobo rummaging through one POI after another.

If they keep chasing that lowest common denominator, it becomes recursive, and everyone plays that way because it is the only way left to play.

It would be nice if the devs would kindly take their thumb off the scales to force gameplay in that direction.

And you are right, one would hope that a good group would help out the support people back home building things and making the hobo stew for everyone.

I don't know what you are trying to say by the "Let them eat cake" reference. Your analogy for removing chopping wood and mining from the game are poor. The ability to harvest water has not been removed. Build some dew collectors and you will harvest plenty of water that can be carried around. Find jars of water in POIs and you are harvesting water that can be carried around. Go to a river and drink your fill which is harvesting water as well. That water can't be carried away but it is harvested and used. 

I recommend a google search to help clear up the historical reference.

https://gprivate.com/62uqp

What necessitates the ability to collect surface water is the infinite supply that it represents. Infinite anything in a survival game is bad news. It may be realistic but it destroys the gameplay.

That generalization is patently false.

Just off the top of my head:

Green Hell, rainforest.

The Long Dark, surrounded by snow.

Raft, literally floating in water.

This only makes you angry because you refuse to accept your role in early access. As long as you disagree and fight against the idea that you signed up to test out the experimental changes the developers make to the game you are going to be perplexed over why TFP changes things without asking us for permission. For 20 alphas now the developers have been making changes and giving them to us to test and play with and then give feedback based on actual play time.

I am not the least bit angry, Roland.

If anything, I am just sick and tired of disappointment.

We are a decade into "early access", that excuse ran its course long ago.

Besides, playtesting implies they actually listen to the feedback from us peasants at some point in the development process, which all too often does not appear to be the case.

Most of the time when I see someone try to give feedback, people like you (often specifically you) shout us down to defend whatever the newest questionable mechanic is as if your life depends on it. 

If you are on a team and some are doing all the building and others are out looting predominately that is also normal and fine. As a team you are getting all those activities done. The looters will bring back magazines because it will make sense for everyone on the team to specialize in different magazines. Having everyone read whatever they find themselves will be extremely foolish and as soon as people start playing they will realize this. 5 people all reading Sharp Sticks magazine means all five will be able to craft an orange wooden spear. But giving one person all the Sharp Sticks magazines means that one person will be able to craft top tier spears for everyone on the team. There is zero incentive to read all magazines yourself when on a team as that will horribly dilute the magazines. It may not seem that way when thinking of magazines in terms of current A20 books but when teams start playing they will instantly realize that the only thing that makes sense is to divide up who will craft what and then funnel magazines to each team member. Meanwhile builders will still probably lead their teammates in xp farming as they upgrade blocks as they build...

Thank you for finally addressing my concern.

 

[smadcore]

Is there any way zombie AI could be tweaked to make the 'ramp up to killbox' style of base less op? 

Maybe occasionally a zombie will ignore the vertical distance and just get as close as they can on the horizontal axis and start attacking blocks?

Maybe sometimes their pathfinding is drastically reduced so they don't notice that convenient set of steps up to where you want them to be?

I don't pretend to understand how all the code works. I really think a little RNG could help. 

 

[meilodasreh]

That "rage mode" you describe is already there, but maybe it could be tweaked a little how it is triggered.

atm it can occur for a short period of time after they fell, and they do it when they don't have a legit path to you.

This is as far as I know, but there might be more to it.

Sometimes they seem to do it at random, but I guess that's just because especially on hordenights when they clog up somewhere,

their pathing just gets messed up, so it's more like a bug, working as a feature