PC Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Khalagar]

As someone who primiarily uses INT build, INT is both amazing and absolutely terrible IMO. Junk Sledge + Trader price perk + Quest reward perk are 3 of the best S tier perks in the game, everything else is pretty much bad

Stun baton is pretty mediocre but I've used it for my last couple of builds for fun, but it's just objectively worse than the club most of the time, and in multiplayer it gets your friends killed because you ragdoll zombies to them that aren't dead, and people walk past and then get clobbered when the zombie stands back up. It's better than the Machete and about as good as the spear though, so not worst in game

Junk Sledge is amazing and one of the best weapons in the entire game when used right, and 70% of the reason to even go into the int tree at all

Junk Turret is honestly pretty bad now because it uses an absolutely absurd amount of iron. It took me well over ten thousand iron to clear a Shotgun Messiah using dual junk turrets compared to me clearing it with about 80-90 shotgun shells with my autoshotgun, and then the loot along the way and at the end replaced those shotgun shells anyway.  Using dual junk turrets even just for big hordes will easily eat right through hundreds of iron, compared to just throwing your two junk sledges down in a door way or using a shotgun + club.

Junk Turret Shotgun Ammo is also pretty awful because the turret will rapid fire out your entire stockpile in 0.234 seconds to do what you could have done with a single shotgun shell with an unperked double barrel

Int doesn't even have a tier 3 weapon, and anyone can pick up and use the drone and no dev has commented AFAIK if the robotic perk line even changes the drone in any way at all. A single autoshottie with no perks absolutely smokes the fully perked dual junk turrets in terms of cost and overall efficiency

The rest of the perks are pretty bad besides the trader one and quest reward one. You can find schematics / buy the entire item from traders  for all the craftables or just make your benches and then buy a respect potion and put the points somewhere else, and none of the crafting bonuses from the perks are worth it.

Junk Sledge is so good that it keeps the int tree relevant weapon wise, and any good horde base relies 90% on the existence of dual junk sledges, but outside of the sledge, the rest of the int weapons are pretty power crept compared to the other trees.

I still say that the Int line should have gotten a "Blowpipe"  tier 0 int weapon that uses junk ammo. In the rework they wanted to give everyone a weapon for each type that uses the correct ammo right from the start, but Int got kinda left high and dry, and only got a tier 0 melee weapon and no tier 3 one for the stun baton line

Int is supposed to use whatever other random crap they find to supplement those.

"Just use a shotgun and a club lol" isn't really a good reason why the int tree can't just be balanced like every other tree

 

[meganoth]

thats becauases right now we don't have much

its mostly a crafting skill then a Gameplay skill right now

We have Right now is the shock baton, Junk sledge and junk turret... Thats it in terms of weapons

in Alpha 20 we will get the Junk baton and junk drone

We still missing a tier 3 Baton and although its a nitpick. we got no dedicated range weapon class, Like i said Yes you could uses the junk turret as a Run in gun weapon, but the Recoil is Trash and you have to hug the target to uses it. you can't aim with it, And the only uses is a "Stand your ground/defend" weapon. its a Unity tool like the Junk sledge  

INT has lots of tier3 ranged weapons: The auto shotgun, the M60, the sniper rifle and the desert vulture. They may not be as fervently dedicated to INT as some of these weapons are to other attributes, but they are highly dedicated to the task of making the life of the INT player easier.

HINT: The idea of an asymmetrical design IS that it is not symmetrical and samey and everything lookalike.

 

[Matt115]

Thats fortitude with living off the land
 

Well i mean  in crafting you put everything connected with quality and crafting. 

in body you put  cardio etc

in survive - living of the the land , deals, looter etc

As someone who primiarily uses INT build, INT is both amazing and absolutely terrible IMO. Junk Sledge + Trader price perk + Quest reward perk are 3 of the best S tier perks in the game, everything else is pretty much bad

Stun baton is pretty mediocre but I've used it for my last couple of builds for fun, but it's just objectively worse than the club most of the time, and in multiplayer it gets your friends killed because you ragdoll zombies to them that aren't dead, and people walk past and then get clobbered when the zombie stands back up. It's better than the Machete and about as good as the spear though, so not worst in game

Junk Sledge is amazing and one of the best weapons in the entire game when used right, and 70% of the reason to even go into the int tree at all

Junk Turret is honestly pretty bad now because it uses an absolutely absurd amount of iron. It took me well over ten thousand iron to clear a Shotgun Messiah using dual junk turrets compared to me clearing it with about 80-90 shotgun shells with my autoshotgun, and then the loot along the way and at the end replaced those shotgun shells anyway.  Using dual junk turrets even just for big hordes will easily eat right through hundreds of iron, compared to just throwing your two junk sledges down in a door way or using a shotgun + club.

Junk Turret Shotgun Ammo is also pretty awful because the turret will rapid fire out your entire stockpile in 0.234 seconds to do what you could have done with a single shotgun shell with an unperked double barrel

Int doesn't even have a tier 3 weapon, and anyone can pick up and use the drone and no dev has commented AFAIK if the robotic perk line even changes the drone in any way at all. A single autoshottie with no perks absolutely smokes the fully perked dual junk turrets in terms of cost and overall efficiency

The rest of the perks are pretty bad besides the trader one and quest reward one. You can find schematics / buy the entire item from traders  for all the craftables or just make your benches and then buy a respect potion and put the points somewhere else, and none of the crafting bonuses from the perks are worth it.

Junk Sledge is so good that it keeps the int tree relevant weapon wise, and any good horde base relies 90% on the existence of dual junk sledges, but outside of the sledge, the rest of the int weapons are pretty power crept compared to the other trees.

I still say that the Int line should have gotten a "Blowpipe"  tier 0 int weapon that uses junk ammo. In the rework they wanted to give everyone a weapon for each type that uses the correct ammo right from the start, but Int got kinda left high and dry, and only got a tier 0 melee weapon and no tier 3 one for the stun baton line

"Just use a shotgun and a club lol" isn't really a good reason why the int tree can't just be balanced like every other tree

Well turrets are like just support not main weapon. like elves in orcs must die!.

I think it will be good if turret were redesing as trap = no limit but it need to be connected on generator - so turrets will be just powerfull traps . So it would a killing zombie on 1 side of base so it would be safe but rest sides you need to keep safe yourself . so maybe adding flamethrower with few variants could solve this problem of INT weapons

 

[Adam the Waster]

INT has lots of tier3 ranged weapons: The auto shotgun, the M60, the sniper rifle and the desert vulture. They may not be as fervently dedicated to INT as some of these weapons are to other attributes, but they are highly dedicated to the task of making the life of the INT player easier.

HINT: The idea of an asymmetrical design IS that it is not symmetrical and samey and everything lookalike.

yes i know that Just like how a strength can uses snipers. But to get the best benefit you can invest into thoses perks... BUT you can't with Intellect   

If thats the case then why have weapon skills for separate Weapons

for fallout. intelligence without Energy weapons would be Stupid, im not saying add lasers just add some Air guns that uses many ammos like darts, nails, junk rounds, bullets, etc

 

[meganoth]

"Just use a shotgun and a club lol" isn't really a good reason why the int tree can't just be balanced like every other tree

You want to tell me that you can't play well with one or two turrets and a shotgun/vulture/marksman in hand. The other ammo you find anyway and the turret(s) don't use too much ammo when you support them with random weapon you found.

But we talked about this a lot of time, and again and again you use INT weapons in idiotic ways so that you can blame INT for being unusable.

yes i know that Just like how a strength can uses snipers. But to get the best benefit you can invest into thoses perks... BUT you can't with Intellect   

No you can't really. If you shoot with a shotgun you can't shoot with the sniper AT THE SAME TIME. But you can shoot with your turrets at the same time as you use any other gun

If thats the case then why have weapon skills for separate Weapons

for fallout. intelligence without Energy weapons would be Stupid, im not saying add lasers just add some Air guns that uses many ammos like darts, nails, junk rounds, bullets, etc

Well i mean  in crafting you put everything connected with quality and crafting. 

in body you put  cardio etc

in survive - living of the the land , deals, looter etc

Well turrets are like just support not main weapon. like elves in orcs must die!.

I think it will be good if turret were redesing as trap = no limit but it need to be connected on generator - so turrets will be just powerfull traps . So it would a killing zombie on 1 side of base so it would be safe but rest sides you need to keep safe yourself . so maybe adding flamethrower with few variants could solve this problem of INT weapons

You may be shocked, but turrets as traps operated by electricity ... have existed in this game for years.

 

[Matt115]

You may be shocked, but turrets as traps operated by electricity ... have existed in this game for years.

i mean robotic sledge and turret XD by turrets i mean - everything what can hit zombie in active mode 

No you can't really. If you shoot with a shotgun you can't shoot with the sniper AT THE SAME TIME. But you can shoot with your turrets at the same time as you use any other gun

if you use slugs you shot both in this same timeXD

 

[meganoth]

i mean robotic sledge and turret XD by turrets i mean - everything what can hit zombie in active mode 

Granted, the sledge turret would be a new trap, the gun turret on the other hand is fundamentally the same as the smg-turret and would simply be removed if TFP followed your advice.

The turrets were (so I would assume) specifically designed as INT weapons, to be different and unusual. What you want to do is make INT boringly normal. Why? Just don't use INT if you don't like it.

if you use slugs you shot both in this same timeXD

That would simply be an abilitiy, a feature of ONE weapon, and I'm not aware that this works in 7D2D. I'm talking about using TWO weapons at the same time.

 

[hiemfire]

"Just use a shotgun and a club lol" isn't really a good reason why the int tree can't just be balanced like every other tree

I wasn't saying that was my stance, I was saying that that is what is expected of Int per the ad infinatum repetition of that by two certain moderators who continually reply counter to solo-speccing, for any of the tree's perk tabs honestly, despite the UI and perk system set up pushing the players to do so. Interface and leveling mechanic set up presents one thing, TFP's moderators "Well actually," the opposite...

None of the tree's are truly balanced against each other, if anything the perk trees seem be intended to make setting up certain play styles more costly by dividing the perks they depend on across the attributes. Barring Strength which is straight face roll juggernaut with no out of tree dependencies. That one has been plug and go since A18. The moving of Heavy Armor to it in A19 just made it more efficient in this.

 

[Blake_]

I've had this rant a while ago too. Int doesn't stand up by itself in combat if you add all the damage and/or flexibility of the 2 turrets and the baton. It just doesn't. 

BUT. And this is a BIG Butt, INT has traps. Electrical traps, tactical traps and an hegemony over workstations to a point that you can't even begin to compare it to other builds.

Yes, it's more tactical, but stands out A LOT if you factor in that fact. It even comes up waaay on top. And you can also use traps in a POI quest. As many as you want.

INT is OP.

 

[Roland]

I wasn't saying that was my stance, I was saying that that is what is expected of Int per the ad infinatum repetition of that by two certain moderators who continually reply counter to solo-speccing, for any of the tree's perk tabs honestly, despite the UI and perk system set up pushing the players to do so. Interface and leveling mechanic set up presents one thing, TFP's moderators "Well actually," the opposite...

None of the tree's are truly balanced against each other, if anything the perk trees seem be intended to make setting up certain play styles more costly by dividing the perks they depend on across the attributes. Barring Strength which is straight face roll juggernaut with no out of tree dependencies. That one has been plug and go since A18. The moving of Heavy Armor to it in A19 just made it more efficient in this.

You can continue to intentionally ignore the idea of asymmetrical design all you want but it doesn’t change reality. The attributes have been designed to offer different experiences and play styles and challenges. 
 

You guys seem to want to be able to just play the game exactly the same way regardless of the path you choose and want the name “intellect” and “strength” and “fortitude” and “agility” and “perception” to just be synonyms and have guns that are basically just reskins of the same dps machine.  
 

Intellect is never going to have a correspondingly equal ranged weapon to the other attributes. It is a different path with its own challenges and strengths but also proven by many people to be a viable path just as it is. 
 

Look…it’s perfectly OKAY to shoot weapons you haven’t perked out to the max. It’s also fine to not try and play a pure intelligence build if that is too much of a challenge. 
 

Asymmetrical design is much more interesting than symmetrical design and if the only vocal people who can appreciate that are two moderators then you’ll continue to hear from us whenever you try and push for intellect to become just like one of the other attributes. 

 

[Outlaw_187]

23 hours ago, meilodasreh said:





let's get prepped everybody...but act fast, there's only limited stock.

Please don't get @Matt115 started....keep everything symmetrical!!

 

[Blake_]

You can continue to intentionally ignore the idea of asymmetrical design all you want but it doesn’t change reality. The attributes have been designed to offer different experiences and play styles and challenges. 
 

You guys seem to want to be able to just play the game exactly the same way regardless of the path you choose and want the name “intellect” and “strength” and “fortitude” and “agility” and “perception” to just be synonyms and have guns that are basically just reskins of the same dps machine.  
 

Intellect is never going to have a correspondingly equal ranged weapon to the other attributes. It is a different path with its own challenges and strengths but also proven by many people to be a viable path just as it is. 
 

Look…it’s perfectly OKAY to shoot weapons you haven’t perked out to the max. It’s also fine to not try and play a pure intelligence build if that is too much of a challenge. 
 

Asymmetrical design is much more interesting than symmetrical design and if the only vocal people who can appreciate that are two moderators then you’ll continue to hear from us whenever you try and push for intellect to become just like one of the other attributes. 

Now you have entered a can of worms. You might be saying that the rest is not as cool.

Every single Attribute has Asymmetrical design. Just look at it:

Spoiler

Perception is OP in crowd control, it results in stacks and stacks of dukes when salvage operations is perked up to a point that you could buy Rekt himself by just clearing a TIER 1 quest. AND he would be grateful. It also detects any animal and gives you amazing loot. OP.

Downside is that it doesn't do that well at short distances.

Strenght is... well..... it just results in a powerful  player  that can also mine and easily get resources while not getting tired. As a bonus, you can cook and not need storage mods. Also OP.

Downside is that it has shortcomings if the combat drags on too long, as shotguns don't have extreme accuracy. The most powerful melee weapon is also slow.

Fortitude is balanced for close combat and very flexible an reliable for long fights. It also offers benefits to the body of the player and several other bonuses to some aspects of the gameplay like weather resistances or food. It's OP.

Downside: It isn't the most powerful nor the most reliable neither at long distances nor at tactical fights.

Agility is the best build for sneaking in the shadows and non-tower defense tactical combat AND it's also the best for killing without being noticed. It's OP because it kills everything when perked up without much comeback.

Downside: It lacks combat proficiency when not sneaking, and in everything at that (when not sneaking It is not the best at crowd control, not the best at long distances, not the fastest, and not the most reliable melee when facing crowds either). Sneaking can be a vulnerable position at times too.

Intelligence is the best build for Tower defense. It can stand up in a predefined point in any place in the game and kill everything without even having to use the action button. It gives the player the ability to create, maintain and control any material aspect of the game using traps and brains. As a plus, it offers extreme trader benefits akin to Perception. It also offers vehicles and a helfpul companion.

Downside: It lacks flexible combat, period. You better plan before you fight and pivot from a fixed position. Unexpected fast crowded attacks are its Aquiles' heel when not prepared.

 

[RussianMafia]

Last time I played was back in Alpha 15 I think. Looking forward to trying out Alpha 20! Are the ziplines and Behemoth implemented yet?

 

[stallionsden]

Last time I played was back in Alpha 15 I think. Looking forward to trying out Alpha 20! Are the ziplines and Behemoth implemented yet?

Both have been ruled out for the vanilla game.

 

[Aldranon]

Each player stat category allows for a new game feel, as the way you play can be different, if focused on.  INT is not the easiest, but if played to it strengths, can be great fun (the sledge turrets are real monster killers if placed well).

Strength is powerful, but can get boring if played all the time. 

So with A20, I plan doing many builds, knowing they will not all be a "Super Rambo".   I'm ready to add 1000 hours to my play time... SOON!

 

[NukemDed]

show me a brick wall so i can bang someone's head against it!

whatever attribute you choose to max out, you will run out of perks to buy before it gets too tough.

for arguments sake i choose to max out int first. i have steel. i have 2 turrets. i have better barter. i have lots.

then i have all of these extra points to spend.

what should i do?

agility to max parkour and pistols to be john wick or knives to be a samurai

strength for shotguns to be ash

fort hoping for the m60 to be rambo (poor afganis @%$#ed over by russia then hollywood then usa...)

you get the drift...

i would peg maxing one tree at mid game. more serious stuff is coming. i worry more about support skills than i do about the chosen 'path'...

in a pinch i would bash a z with a feather if it gave me that nth degree better damage... the goal is to survive

btw, books seem to give the best overall qol pekrs                             imho

hard to beat

no encumbrance at night

land mines dont detonate when stepped on

cigar

and more i forget right now.... cheers  hic

 

[meganoth]

Not everything is rosy with INT (IMHO). The sharp incline in effectiveness between 1 and 2 turrets is putting too much importance into this final perk point. In my opinion removing the pushback at lower perk levels and adding that as a further bonus per perk point could make INT smoother. Or at least that at level 3 you can operate a sledge turret with a gun turret (which would at least provide some sugar for horde nights)

But apart from that INT is a fun attribute and powerful if you allow yourself to use its advantages fully. If someone came along and showed that using turrets together with unperked guns/baton and all the other benefits of INT was somehow far below other perks then that would be a powerful argument. But comparing INT and insisting that you only must use INT weapons because of some principle you believe in? Well, what argument is that?

Granted, strength is OP, and since it seems to be the entry attribute for new players that won't change. And if you look at other games with high replayability that is a very common game design right now. But I really don't see how perception or agility should be so much better than INT

 

[Matt115]

Granted, the sledge turret would be a new trap, the gun turret on the other hand is fundamentally the same as the smg-turret and would simply be removed if TFP followed your advice.

The turrets were (so I would assume) specifically designed as INT weapons, to be different and unusual. What you want to do is make INT boringly normal. Why? Just don't use INT if you don't like it.

That would simply be an abilitiy, a feature of ONE weapon, and I'm not aware that this works in 7D2D. I'm talking about using TWO weapons at the same time.

Well i can't agree about smg- smg have diffrent type of ammo so : sledge turret- cheap ammo , small dmg , small shot speed,  smg turret - expensive ammo but bigger dmg and shot speed for longer distance - shotgun turret- big dmg but slow - perfect to keep small rooms safe.  So turrets would be just base defense system not  "weapons"

I would change INT into "gasoline" weapons- flamethrower and circular saw similar to elite zombie from nza4. INT weapons would be powerfull as hell on short and medium distance but need gasoline. this would make give 2 unique weapons + baton maybe stun gun too so 4 weapons

 

[Adam the Waster]

You may be shocked, but turrets as traps operated by electricity ... have existed in this game for years.

Really? iv Been powering my base Via a Water wheel and Bike?

Damn i need to step up my game

Last time I played was back in Alpha 15 I think. Looking forward to trying out Alpha 20! Are the ziplines and Behemoth implemented yet?

Nope thoses have enterd Snowdogs @%$#

A dark place were nothing can leave... AKA they are scraped

Kinda wish the Behemoth Did came back in a way. Just make it as big as a Biker and Give it more HP then a Unpatched Brute from Halo 2 And boom!

Behemoth 

Please don't get @Matt115 started....keep everything symmetrical!!

I swear to Goddog, that Hes just a Clone of me in 2018 

I bet iv given Roland and Madmole PTSD from my endless trash

 

[Scythe-Messiah]

For the INT tree, My big question is: does the drone's heal get impacted by the drone owner's Physician perk? e.g. 25%, 40%, 55%, 75% added healing? Does the player who owns the drone also get the XP from the heal? and if so, is that XP boosted by Physician bonus? That synergy is going to be really important co-op for folks who want to double down on supporting their friends. 

Regarding INT tree balance; Personally speaking, I've always felt like 'Demolitions expert' should be in the INT tree. IMHO The tree with advanced engineering better reflects someone who's actively producing explosives and has the know how that best reflects how to maximize their effect. Perception makes sense with hand eye coordination of tossing say, a grenade -- but is hand eye coordination really more important than the knowledge and act of preparation for chemical/electrical/mechanical components of explosives? If the explosives aren't made well, it doesn't matter how good your hand eye coordination is if the explosive doesn't go boom (or goes boom too soon).

Sledges and junk turrets can hold the line, but explosives are the perfect supplement to support when they get overwhelmed or you need to repair/reload them. Plus, IIRC INT has 8 skills and PER has 10. Arguably not much of a stretch to move it. Plus, Demolitions expert is already pretty asymmetrical vs. other weapon groups and it 100% fits the base defense/support aspect of INT. 

Toss in some tools for demolition/area denial and it really reinforces INT as a base defender. A flamethrower for example could also have the added utility of clearing out plants/trees/grass from an area in the wilderness for a build or quickly clearing sight lines before a horde. 

INT weapons feel like they need some balance tweaking. I've never found the baton useful enough to warrant putting points into it. If the stun had a guaranteed proc that recharged every 5 seconds(reduced time required on perk spent), I'd use it more often. I wish there was a ranged taser or another ranged weapon with high stun chance/duration low damage for co-op(bean bag cannon). My other major concern on the INT tree is ammo efficiency on the junk turret. I wish the turret perk had a much higher damage vs. fire rate ratio (which would help with ammo efficiency). Sledge turrets have greater utility since they're more reliable and don't hemorrhage resources.