PC Alpha 19 Dev Diary

[Danidas]

So STR has the absolutely fantastic cigar that lets you double dip and you are complaining?

It mainly that the Cigar for strength and its barter bonus as well as the Nerdy Glasses intellect plus xp bonus are so good compared to the other stat gear. Specifically the other eye wear that only gives plus one to its attribute and no other benefits. So it kinda seams unbalanced as the secondary bonuses far out weigh the stat bonus in most cases for people. Since investing in perk levels that will only work when wearing the right eye wear is a bit silly and the secondary effect of more head shot damage for the perks weapons is minor. People mainly want the other stat gear to get the same love as the Cigar/Nerdy glasses and provide a secondary effect to justify wearing them.

Edit - For example one of them can provide a bit of armor, another more resources from skinning or scraping things, etc.

 

[meganoth]

It mainly that the Cigar for strength and its barter bonus as well as the Nerdy Glasses intellect plus xp bonus are so good compared to the other stat gear. Specifically the other eye wear that only gives plus one to its attribute and no other benefits. So it kinda seams unbalanced as the secondary bonuses far out weigh the stat bonus in most cases for people. Since investing in perk levels that will only work when wearing the right eye wear is a bit silly and the secondary effect of more head shot damage for the perks weapons is minor. People mainly want the other stat gear to get the same love as the Cigar/Nerdy glasses and provide a secondary effect to justify wearing them.

Yes, the nerdy glasses are nice, but what does 10% mean in terms of level? If you had the 10% bonus all the time, would you be one level ahead compared to a no-nerd play or more or less? Compare that with other glasses that give you the equivalent of at least 1 level up to 3 levels directly if you save paying for attribute 10.

Now an INT player certainly has the advantage of getting xp AND the +1 to INT. But maybe this is because as INT player you often pay valuable perk points for schematics instead of improving yourself. I would not say INT is overall better than STR for example even with the nerd glasses as bonus.

 

[Danidas]

Yes, the nerdy glasses are nice, but what does 10% mean in terms of level? If you had the 10% bonus all the time, would you be one level ahead compared to a no-nerd play or more or less? Compare that with other glasses that give you the equivalent of at least 1 level up to 3 levels directly if you save paying for attribute 10.

Now an INT player certainly has the advantage of getting xp AND the +1 to INT. But maybe this is because as INT player you often pay valuable perk points for schematics instead of improving yourself. I would not say INT is overall better than STR for example even with the nerd glasses as bonus.

Its mainly say if your maining Fortitude and you have the choice between wearing Tough Guy Glasses for +1 to Fortitude or the Nerdy Glasses for +1 Intellect and +10% xp. Which one will benefit you more to wear long term? Lets say your low level and just competed a quest and the reward are either the Tough Guy Glasses or the Nerdy Glasses, which do you take?

 

[meganoth]

Its mainly say if your maining Fortitude and you have the choice between wearing Tough Guy Glasses for +1 to Fortitude or the Nerdy Glasses for +1 Intellect and +10% xp. Which one will benefit you more to wear long term? Lets say your low level and just competed a quest and the reward are either the Tough Guy Glasses or the Nerdy Glasses, which do you take?

Exactly, which is why I'm asking. I don't have access to the xml right now to find out the xp to level function. Without that it is hard to evaluate. 

 

[madmole]

Hmm, can't say I'm a fan of that at all. Forcing guns over melee. Another option being taken away. Another looter/shooter step. He'll be modded out in my games if that comes even remotely clue to being true.

It forces variety of tactics which is a good thing. There will still be plenty of zeds to melee and you can still melee the gasser just make sure you have some kind of gas protection on or move in and out quickly from the toxic gas cloud.

So when bandits come you will mod them out too? Because melee will not be an option against a guy with an M60 raining hell down on you.

Though special undead are cool I really hope you guys dont make it a fart.

He's been farting since Alpha 1, burping etc. Nobody ever noticed?

As long as I can still punch the gas bags right in the $%#$%#^^ face and beat them to death its all good...doesn't matter if I have to wear special protection or not...

Of course you will be able to. All I was saying is it might not be the best strat to melee with one without protection. Just like fighting a wight with fists on day 1 is a bad idea.

Swapping out head/face gear depending on what zombies type I happen to be fighting at the moment is what this leads to and is not something I will be doing. What other type is going to need what other special form of protection? No thank you. Easy to work around tho if that turns out to be the case. As I said, IF it turns out that way I'll be "fixing" it in my games.

Preparation is king. You will need radiation protection from radiation zones and radiation zombies, gas masks against gassers, etc. There will be probably be gas mods for helmets you will just need to have one installed.

 

[faatal]

Right but it seems even with great connections the reach is excessive.   No problems with any other games, even pure FPS games.

Uh, did you miss me calling it "Excessive" already?

 

[Jost Amman]

How can everyone of you be so sure it isn't the trash or just the one script event that is in a few pois ? If pregnable had posted a video (or at least a few relevant pictures with descriptions) we could maybe say with certainty "this thing is broken" or "you made a boo boo here".

His description had not a lot of exact information (like which room in which poi, was his head lamp on, what was his actual stealth level when the zombies woke up, frequency of those events...) and it seems to me you are all inserting your own preconceptions into his words.

What @pregnable said is just confirmation of our own esperiences: stealth is partly broken, that's a fact.

I guess you've never played much stealth in A19 if you don't know that.

We need to be honest and straightforward when reporting this kind of things otherwise the game will be published with faatal flaws when we reach 1.0.

 

[Blake_]

Of course you will be able to. All I was saying is it might not be the best strat to melee with one without protection. Just like fighting a wight with fists on day 1 is a bad idea.

MM, are underground threats of any kind within your design works for this upcoming alpha?

 

[madmole]

I've been playing a lot of A19 and I'm really digging it.  The PoIs look much nicer with the new art assets!  There's many things in A19 that I really like, the hunger/thirst bars were a much-needed addition, however, it's created a sort of guessing game as to how much food I need to eat to top my meters off now.  It's probably been suggested before, but would it be possible to implement a system where health/food/thirst bars are filled in with a lighter shade of red/green/blue whenever we're healing or eating/drinking?  So we know how much of our bar is going to be filled up and know right away if we need to drink or eat more, rather than having to wait for the bar to finish filling! 

It would make sense I think, at least for food/water, I know when I have room for seconds right after eating something!  It'd be a nice QoL improvement if the devs have time to implement it!

That was supposed to happen with the design but fell through the cracks.

Could we please try to add actual models to the food items? Like for a can of chili, have it show an actual can of chili when its equipped, or stuff like that. I mean its a small detail, but it feels off having just a piece of meat in your guys hand.

Should just insta eat and not be able to equip food, like every other game. Its been on the list to redo food items but keeps getting pushed back because dozens of new weapons we added takes time to animate and model.

Pipe flamethrower...... duh!

That is called a pipe bomb.

 

[meganoth]

What @pregnable said is just confirmation of our own esperiences: stealth is partly broken, that's a fact.

I guess you've never played much stealth in A19 if you don't know that.

We need to be honest and straightforward when reporting this kind of things otherwise the game will be published with faatal flaws when we reach 1.0.

I would have said "concise and with reproducible steps", but sure, if you want to send Fataal on a possibly futile bug hunt that will do as well 

 

[madmole]

MM, are underground threats of any kind within your design works for this upcoming alpha?

Why bother we took out digging?

 

[Laz Man]

What @pregnable said is just confirmation of our own esperiences: stealth is partly broken, that's a fact.

I guess you've never played much stealth in A19 if you don't know that.

We need to be honest and straightforward when reporting this kind of things otherwise the game will be published with faatal flaws when we reach 1.0.

Broken is a very subjective term.  What feels broken might be working as intended to someone else.  2 peoples similar anecdotal experiences also dont make things "facts."

Facts require proof and that is why its critical to provide reproduction of specific steps otherwise there is no sure way confirm if the root cause was addressed or not...

 

[madmole]

Broken is a very subjective term.  What feels broken might be working as intended to someone else.  2 peoples similar anecdotal experiences also dont make things "facts."

Facts require proof and that is why its critical to provide reproduction of specific steps otherwise there is no sure way confirm if the root cause was addressed or not...

Truth.

 

[pregnable]

are you walking on trash? trash is like an alarm for sleepers to come and attack you, i think you can clear the trash silently with an axe, or you can get the perk that makes walking over trash silent from a combat manual, but otherwise avoid trash (its everywhere in PoIs) and you should do a lot better.

Nah, I was not walking over trash. 

The one spot is after you go up the first ladder.  I got up it and was fine, then I had to go back into sneak mode. 

I waited a bit after going into sneak mode and then as soon as I passed midway by the wall they wake up and come for me. 

Maybe they are actually right next to the wall on the other side or something and their visibility range is glitching through the wall?

I noticed while playing that in a number of POIs there seemed to be spots where I would be sneaking, not hit trash or anything, and my stealth says I am super stealthy, and certain nearby zombies just wake up. 

 

[faatal]

What @pregnable said is just confirmation of our own esperiences: stealth is partly broken, that's a fact.

I guess you've never played much stealth in A19 if you don't know that.

We need to be honest and straightforward when reporting this kind of things otherwise the game will be published with faatal flaws when we reach 1.0.

I would not call stealth broken. It has rules and they work. Now the player understanding those rules is another thing.

Like:

No you can't run around in daylight or with a light and be stealthy. That is what the meter is for. More light, higher meter. Stay in the shadows.

No you can't make a lot of noise and be stealthy. That is what the meter is for. More noise, higher meter.

The higher the meter, the longer the range they may see or hear you. It is a threshold.

No you can't stand outside a sleeper volume and make a bunch of noise and expect them to react, because we don't want the whole POI awake because you shot your gun. For performance reasons, the sleepers are not even spawned in volumes you are not close to.

Trash on the ground may make noise when you step on it, so don't or destroy it, which also may make some noise.

There are no magic spots on sleepers. You damage them, they awaken and aggro. The zed next to him does not care unless he personally sees or hears you or gets damaged.

Sleeper volumes can each be set to awaken and aggro the zeds regardless of stealth. That is up to the level designers and their goal with that volume.

Agility is my favorite build and I often use stealth, so I have a pretty good idea what works and what does not. Granted things can change that I may not notice, like new sounds added or noise levels changed or light adjustments and bugs happen.

 

[Blake_]

Why bother we took out digging?

Behold non english speakers absolutely understanding the comment and positively reacting to that feedback, lol.

 

[faatal]

Nah, I was not walking over trash. 

The one spot is after you go up the first ladder.  I got up it and was fine, then I had to go back into sneak mode. 

I waited a bit after going into sneak mode and then as soon as I passed midway by the wall they wake up and come for me. 

Maybe they are actually right next to the wall on the other side or something and their visibility range is glitching through the wall?

I noticed while playing that in a number of POIs there seemed to be spots where I would be sneaking, not hit trash or anything, and my stealth says I am super stealthy, and certain nearby zombies just wake up. 

People underestimate zombie hearing. They detect you more by hearing than seeing. We do not have audio occlusion, so walls do not block sounds.

With zero light and maximum stealth perks, they will always see/hear at some minimum distance like 1m.

 

[pregnable]

How can everyone of you be so sure it isn't the trash or just the one script event that is in a few pois ? If pregnable had posted a video (or at least a few relevant pictures with descriptions) we could maybe say with certainty "this thing is broken" or "you made a boo boo here".

His description had not a lot of exact information (like which room in which poi, was his head lamp on, what was his actual stealth level when the zombies woke up, frequency of those events...) and it seems to me you are all inserting your own preconceptions into his words.

Yeah sure, I believe one spot is business_burnt_02, right after you go up the ladder and have to pass through the elevator shaft. 

I was sneaking past the left wall in the elevator shaft, if that helps. 

I can not get on an take pictures atm, but I can later if needed. 

 

[Danidas]

I would not call stealth broken. It has rules and they work. Now the player understanding those rules is another thing.

Like:

No you can't run around in daylight or with a light and be stealthy. That is what the meter is for. More light, higher meter. Stay in the shadows.

No you can't make a lot of noise and be stealthy. That is what the meter is for. More noise, higher meter.

The higher the meter, the longer the range they may see or hear you. It is a threshold.

No you can't stand outside a sleeper volume and make a bunch of noise and expect them to react, because we don't want the whole POI awake because you shot your gun. For performance reasons, the sleepers are not even spawned in volumes you are not close to.

Trash on the ground may make noise when you step on it, so don't or destroy it, which also may make some noise.

There are no magic spots on sleepers. You damage them, they awaken and aggro. The zed next to him does not care unless he personally sees or hears you or gets damaged.

Sleeper volumes can each be set to awaken and aggro the zeds regardless of stealth. That is up to the level designers and their goal with that volume.

Agility is my favorite build and I often use stealth, so I have a pretty good idea what works and what does not. Granted things can change that I may not notice, like new sounds added or noise levels changed or light adjustments and bugs happen.

The bolded line is the one that most people don't get or understand and claim stealth is broken as a result. As the simple fact that you can do everything perfectly right with stealth but the moment you get close enough to spawn in one of these auto awake/aggro zombie volumes all your efforts are meaningless. Which people naturally see as a build breaking bug since why bother going through all the effort to stealth when the loud and proud approach always works.

 

[Blake_]

Yeah sure, I believe one spot is business_burnt_02, right after you go up the ladder and have to pass through the elevator shaft. 

I was sneaking past the left wall in the elevator shaft, if that helps. 

I can not get on an take pictures atm, but I can later if needed. 

Yes, there are a few insta-wakes in quite a few POIS that feel cheap. But reality is, you weren't 0% seen. So as long as there's a number >0 in the yellow bar, you will always have a chance  insta-wake some Zds no matter how big your stealth skill is or if you move too close because of the slightest noise. So go lightest armor (gotta be padded or full modded light) with full muffled mods and top agility and full stealth books and a knife and even THEN you are not a skyrim-like god. BUT I can confirm that you are pretty close, and you need no bullets and it feels AWESOME and rewarding. As long as you kill first, loot/ wrench later.

The stealth in this game, as it is, is better than , again, Skyrim. Not a fan of the yellow bar at first, but exact numbers will always trump an eye-like visual clue. 

Edit: Using a ladder with stealth needs a book or a little tunning, but that's alpha for you.