PC Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[Laz Man]

You got really lucky.

I guess that play through wont be a pistol build.........The RNG gods have spoken.

Hey MM, I know I'm just one sampling, but for me I saw a noticable increase in frequency of purples in those reinforced crates between 60 to 80 game stage and I think I have 2 points in Lucky Looter. Not complaining but thought I would share if it helps with balancing.

I can go through my screenshots later for specifics if needed.

 

[Darkest Night]

You got really lucky.

Actually, he is only lucky if he was looking for those things. If you were dying of thirst in the Desert and you come across 50 tons of Gold and platinum while searching for water, you are not lucky, you are dying due to lack of water.

That being said, RNG is RNG.

- - - Updated - - -

The spirit and intent of your message is beautiful. However the min maxers will team up and craft end game gear for everyone on the team by day 3, so it has to be limited to looting only, so that online play is a long game just like playing solo is.

I had to register just to reply to this, I have been around these forums a very long time.

Sorry Madmole, I have to agree with him wholeheartedly. The way things are in Alpha 18 already prevent your scenario from happening. If I remember right, it took 15-17 parts to make a single L6 item. So for a team of 4, this would take 60+ parts per character slot to craft a single L6 item for all 4. Considering I was having a difficult time getting my crafted L6's to match or exceed the L3 or L4 looted items I already had, it is very unlikely that min maxed character will be able to get access to that many parts and that he will magically craft top tier L6 items on his first try.

As it stands now, there is one overriding skill that breaks 7DTD, Lucky Looter. Add in glasses and it is even further out of whack. With this skill maxed, I get T6 items routinely. The way it is now, your min maxed character specializing in looting will easily be able to supply a team of friends with top tier items much sooner than a TEAM of min maxed crafters that have specialized in the different items. This is what I feel is broken. A TEAM, working together, can easily be outperformed by a single player specialized in looting.

Making 7DTD a loot the best game leads to breaking the game sooner, period. As a quick example, look to Znation. By focusing on looting garages, he had a Motorcycle on day 3. If he had to craft the motorcycle from scratch, he would have had to either loot the schematics for frame, accessories, motor, engine, steel, parts etc... or Specialize in Grease Monkey and get Int up, GM to 3 and still loot all the parts above or also get the ability to make steel and loot most of the parts above. And this is just to be able to make a motorcycle. To craft other end game items would take a plethora of skill points to get their respective skills maxed as well as lots of looting for parts etc... I think it is easy to see that Looting is the fast way to end game items and equipment and not crafting. Your logic seems to be flawed.

I am stating the above with all due respect, you have made an amazing game that just keeps getting better. Sure, there have been a few missteps along the way but the end result is still amazing. I just feel that this is one of those mis-steps.

 

[wordwaster]

^this. We have hundreds of 9mm bullets and nothing to use them with. I was starting to think it was a bug but a search turned up no other complaints.

It seems a bit much, even for rng. 3 of us haven’t found ONE pistol in 10 hours

 

[madmole]

Or use the dukes to buy bullets. Seriously I was in the same boat in a17. I like shooting, wasn’t enough brass to feed my habit. Then I found a use for the merchants other than solar panels. They got the cure for what ails ya.

But seriously, why can’t my people find a pistol?

Random luck, I have about 5 pistols and 12 parts already at level 35. Two blue ones so far.

 

[madmole]

I guess that play through wont be a pistol build.........The RNG gods have spoken.
Hey MM, I know I'm just one sampling, but for me I saw a noticable increase in frequency of purples in those reinforced crates between 60 to 80 game stage and I think I have 2 points in Lucky Looter. Not complaining but thought I would share if it helps with balancing.

I can go through my screenshots later for specifics if needed.

Its fine, we're planning more loot changes so whatever it is now isn't relevant.

 

[Darkest Night]

[quote name=

wordwaster]^this. We have hundreds of 9mm bullets and nothing to use them with. I was starting to think it was a bug but a search turned up no other complaints.

It seems a bit much, even for rng. 3 of us haven’t found ONE pistol in 10 hours

Try focusing on toilets. I get a ton of 9mm pistols from toilets.

 

[madmole]

Actually, he is only lucky if he was looking for those things. If you were dying of thirst in the Desert and you come across 50 tons of Gold and platinum while searching for water, you are not lucky, you are dying due to lack of water.
That being said, RNG is RNG.

- - - Updated - - -

I had to register just to reply to this, I have been around these forums a very long time.

Sorry Madmole, I have to agree with him wholeheartedly. The way things are in Alpha 18 already prevent your scenario from happening. If I remember right, it took 15-17 parts to make a single L6 item. So for a team of 4, this would take 60+ parts per character slot to craft a single L6 item for all 4. Considering I was having a difficult time getting my crafted L6's to match or exceed the L3 or L4 looted items I already had, it is very unlikely that min maxed character will be able to get access to that many parts and that he will magically craft top tier L6 items on his first try.

As it stands now, there is one overriding skill that breaks 7DTD, Lucky Looter. Add in glasses and it is even further out of whack. With this skill maxed, I get T6 items routinely. The way it is now, your min maxed character specializing in looting will easily be able to supply a team of friends with top tier items much sooner than a TEAM of min maxed crafters that have specialized in the different items. This is what I feel is broken. A TEAM, working together, can easily be outperformed by a single player specialized in looting.

Making 7DTD a loot the best game leads to breaking the game sooner, period. As a quick example, look to Znation. By focusing on looting garages, he had a Motorcycle on day 3. If he had to craft the motorcycle from scratch, he would have had to either loot the schematics for frame, accessories, motor, engine, steel, parts etc... or Specialize in Grease Monkey and get Int to 6, GM to 3 and still loot all the parts above or also get the ability to make steel and loot most of the parts above. And this is just to be able to make a motorcycle. To craft other end game items would take a plethora of skill points to get their respective skills maxed as well as lots of looting for parts etc... I think it is easy to see that Looting is the fast way to end game items and equipment and not crafting. Your logic seems to be flawed.

I am stating the above with all due respect, you have made an amazing game that just keeps getting better. Sure, there have been a few missteps along the way but the end result is still amazing. I just feel that this is one of those mis-steps.

As I've said its simply balance. I don't think any fundamental designs need changed too much. We are rebalancing loot so that even with lucky looter it won't ever be raining purples, no matter what level you are. I want to introduce a "loot quality slider" which delays/increases how fast the better loot and legendary get exposed to the drop list. It happens too fast IMO, you shouldn't even sniff at low probability purples until level 75. At level 100 it gets a small increase, etc. The slider can push that down to level 25, or up to 200. 25 would be for kids or people playing on nightmare/insane, hordes every night.

 

[madmole]

Try focusing on toilets. I get a ton of 9mm pistols from toilets.

I loot every toilet in the game, and never have to worry about having enough jars and murky water, and the rare pistol helps build my smg turret parts supply.

 

[Pockets1974]

Are you ♥♥♥♥ing serious? are you rly telling me to back up my files every day i play the game???Out of your control??? is out of your control to make the game create a saved file every ingame midnight??

Are you rly so short of sight as to assume ♥♥♥♥ i have never said?? this town has electric problems whenever there is strong winds, so should i go complain to the electric company because your incapability of putting your ego aside and analyse feeback in a objective manner to improve your game???

I seriously cant believe you are working with the professionals who made this nice game possible.

So...I live in an area where my power is iffy at times. I have a battery backup for that very reason. If my power goes out, I have about 30 to 45 minutes to finish whatever i'm doing and shut my computer down to avoid damage. Problem solved, and no bitching on a public forum either... crazy huh?

 

[Laz Man]

Actually, he is only lucky if he was looking for those things. If you were dying of thirst in the Desert and you come across 50 tons of Gold and platinum while searching for water, you are not lucky, you are dying due to lack of water.
That being said, RNG is RNG.

- - - Updated - - -

I had to register just to reply to this, I have been around these forums a very long time.

Sorry Madmole, I have to agree with him wholeheartedly. The way things are in Alpha 18 already prevent your scenario from happening. If I remember right, it took 15-17 parts to make a single L6 item. So for a team of 4, this would take 60+ parts per character slot to craft a single L6 item for all 4. Considering I was having a difficult time getting my crafted L6's to match or exceed the L3 or L4 looted items I already had, it is very unlikely that min maxed character will be able to get access to that many parts and that he will magically craft top tier L6 items on his first try.

As it stands now, there is one overriding skill that breaks 7DTD, Lucky Looter. Add in glasses and it is even further out of whack. With this skill maxed, I get T6 items routinely. The way it is now, your min maxed character specializing in looting will easily be able to supply a team of friends with top tier items much sooner than a TEAM of min maxed crafters that have specialized in the different items. This is what I feel is broken. A TEAM, working together, can easily be outperformed by a single player specialized in looting.

Making 7DTD a loot the best game leads to breaking the game sooner, period. As a quick example, look to Znation. By focusing on looting garages, he had a Motorcycle on day 3. If he had to craft the motorcycle from scratch, he would have had to either loot the schematics for frame, accessories, motor, engine, steel, parts etc... or Specialize in Grease Monkey and get Int to 6, GM to 3 and still loot all the parts above or also get the ability to make steel and loot most of the parts above. And this is just to be able to make a motorcycle. To craft other end game items would take a plethora of skill points to get their respective skills maxed as well as lots of looting for parts etc... I think it is easy to see that Looting is the fast way to end game items and equipment and not crafting. Your logic seems to be flawed.

I am stating the above with all due respect, you have made an amazing game that just keeps getting better. Sure, there have been a few missteps along the way but the end result is still amazing. I just feel that this is one of those mis-steps.

The more I think about it, what crafting probably needs to make it feel more worthwhile is to allow t6 crafts but only when perked high enough AND a unique crafting material that is dropped from a high tier event. Maybe only fetch AND Clear T5 quests. This will only work if the appearance of higher tier quality items is further reduced. If I had time to mod, I'd create something that looks like this.

-Keep existing gun/tool part crafting (up to t5) but reduce quality drops further so those crafts are more relavant

-Add a unique crafting Material (for t6 crafts only) for each weapon/armor type (and one for tools). Or, create one unique material type for item type (e.g. melee weapons, armor, and tools) (which ever feels better)

-Make this unique crafting material only a reward from t5 fetch/clear or clear quests.

-add t6 recipes that require quantity x 2 of these mats to limit easy farming or limit the frequency of these quest types (whichever feels better)

 

[Blake_]

I loot every toilet in the game, and never have to worry about having enough jars and murky water, and the rare pistol helps build my smg turret parts supply.

Greatest pick up line ever.

 

[Laz Man]

I loot every toilet in the game, and never have to worry about having enough jars and murky water, and the rare pistol helps build my smg turret parts supply.

I hate to say it but I think murky water stacks are OP, I think they stack up to 125? I remember hitting up the toilet store and having enough murky water to last me weeks. At that frequency I dont even bother picking up empty bottles or regular water which stacks only up to 10.

Edit: nice to meet another fellow toilet whore. *fist pump* lol

 

[Thecolours]

Its fine, we're planning more loot changes so whatever it is now isn't relevant.

Those changes coming in A18 or A19?

 

[JCrook1028]

@MM: Any plans to implement a favourite system in the backback/inventory? I'm really missing the possibilty to right click my AK, Med Kit, 7.62 - give them a star for favourite and then have the ability after a long loot session in the city to go into a deposite create and f. ex hold shift+R to deposite everything that's not set as a favourite.
Would really make my day

It's already in vanilla code but not enabled yet. There a modlet that enables it.

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?127758-Backpack-Buttons-A18!-(Stash-All-Stash-Stack-Stash-Stack-Smart)

 

[JCrook1028]

are you stupid or you hit your head when your were a kid?, you go around assuming ♥♥♥♥ when i never said it was my pc that lost power, use what is left of your brain a little bit and realise that this post was moved to feedback by a moderator for a reason, i am glad is not someone like you who is developing this game.

Um....your PC IS losing power if it is shutting off due to no power...... get a UPS then your town's ♥♥♥♥ty power system isn't going to mess up your game, or more important things on your PC. You can get a cheap one that will give you 5-6 minutes for less than $30.

 

[agrastiOs]

You are the one with the problem of flaky power. Sure we could write an incremental save game system but we're in alpha so how hard is it for you to understand that its a low priority 1 in 10 million edge cases of losing power while playing the game, when a save happens to be writing, which is the only way it could get corrupted. Its your issue, so I am telling you to make a shortcut to your save folder and make a backup periodically. This is a computer basic, I'm sure a master of pirating can figure out how to create a backup folder.
We have to stay focused on completing the game, not wasting engineering effort on 1 in 10 million edge cases that can be prevented with basic windows copy/paste functions.

It would be nice if game made some .baks in the saves directory, like many video games do. I don't think an incremental save system is needed, just that. But this is only for around gold, there's more important things to do, like you said .

 

[Chairkicker]

Its highly possible the formula for MP game stage is too aggressive. I think it just adds up your gs, so 6 level 30 guys is like one level 180 guy which is extreme late game. I'll visit with the guys on the actual formula. One man's too hard is another man's too easy.

Maybe you could tie game stage addition to game difficulty, or give us a separate "Game stage multiplier" option that controls how fast it ramps up and how much each extra player contributes to the total gamestage. Perhaps you could give game stage some geographic properties so that gamestage from each player is only added when they're in close proximity?

As I've said its simply balance. I don't think any fundamental designs need changed too much. We are rebalancing loot so that even with lucky looter it won't ever be raining purples, no matter what level you are. I want to introduce a "loot quality slider" which delays/increases how fast the better loot and legendary get exposed to the drop list. It happens too fast IMO, you shouldn't even sniff at low probability purples until level 75. At level 100 it gets a small increase, etc. The slider can push that down to level 25, or up to 200. 25 would be for kids or people playing on nightmare/insane, hordes every night.

This would be lovely because I find that 50% loot multiplier is excellent for emphasizing the survival aspect of the game. At 100%, or even 75% I'm always swimming in everything I ever need, especially food. I sure would love if we could have specific loot multipliers for categories of items.

The only problem is that at 50%, you get a lot of special containers (shipping crates, locked crates, safes, etc..) that are totally empty. I don't suppose you could make a change so that those containers always have a reward even at 25% multiplier? Just scaling it down so you at least get a single gun part, a few bullets, some food, raw materials, etc..

 

[Laz Man]

Its highly possible the formula for MP game stage is too aggressive. I think it just adds up your gs, so 6 level 30 guys is like one level 180 guy which is extreme late game. I'll visit with the guys on the actual formula. One man's too hard is another man's too easy.

Hi MM. I could have swore that you said the game would take the person with the highest GS for the calculation, unless I dreamt that or that was in regards to loot only.

 

[Jay_ombie]

I hate to say it but I think murky water stacks are OP, I think they stack up to 125? I remember hitting up the toilet store and having enough murky water to last me weeks. At that frequency I dont even bother picking up empty bottles or regular water which stacks only up to 10.
Edit: nice to meet another fellow toilet whore. *fist pump* lol

I am not sure we even need toilet water (not in every toilet maybe) with lakes etc you can fill up stacks of jars its never a problem now.

Also may I ask MM regarding zombies ie SPIDER zombies and Dogs, can they be set to be able to enter and go through one block spaces and even jump between two blocks as I am seeing many a base with big wide gaps and these zombies at least should be getting through with ease but cant due to block detection I guess.

 

[falloutcloud]

How many times do I have to explain this?

Look didn't mean to get you triggered there. The way I'm seeing it is that fortitude has Iron Gut which increases buff duration and reduces chance of debuff, Regeneration, and Heavy Armor. Seems a bit OP. You wanted feedback and I'm giving it.