PC Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[The Gronk]

The logic is to try food poisoning out without mass edits needed to support it for real. If we keep it like it is, we'll raise the cost.

I'm not a fan of the food poisoning mechanic if I'm honest. The idea is good but the implementation doesn't really work.

As it stands the chance of being poisoned feels incredibly random, it's all or nothing. Increasing the chance of poisoning will just render the food unusable as you'll be having to eat more to recover stamina which will lead to more poisoning and so on ad infinitum.

Maybe increase the poisoning rate but make the amount of stamina drain and dysentry a random variable?

 

[iamnuff]

Junk turrets will become tier 2 weapons, not available in loot early game. At first you will craft some sort of melee trap turret, like a junk turret with a swinging sledgehammer. Tier 3 might will be some kind of robot that can move and shoot, maybe it can even carry some things for you. So nobody will have a junk turret early game. We might even make them craft only the first half of the game at least.

Junk turrets being craft-only makes sense to me, because if there were anyone else who could make junk turrets, everyone would have one.

Robots should definately be craft-only, because if they can carry gear for you, then everybody would use one.

Also, couple of ideas about then.

Robot: Works like junk turret, durability only goes down when it fires.

Result: everyone has robots out at all times to carry things, only int-builds give them ammo = unlimited durability.

Robot: uses durability per second that it's places and active.

Result: You go through a lot of repair kits, but it's probably still worth it for non-int builds to carry them around at all times, for the extra inventory space and free combat aid.

Robot: Runs on gas whenever it's out. loses durability when it fires.

Result: Basically a vehicle with a gun built in. Still useful for carrying things, if you have a lot of gas, but probably won't be mass-produced by Int-builds for everyone on the server.

Robot: Runs on battery

Result: Same as above, recharge from generator would be interesting. Set it into standby mode and hook it up to your power-bank when not using it, to keep it topped up? Might be mass produced.

I think the robot should definitely be craft-only, except for maybe a couple of static robot loations in specific pre-fabs, like science-buildings or something? story locations, like how supercorn and Gracie are always in the same place?

Craft-only isn't too bad for a weapon in the Int-tree, since... if you're going intelligence, crafting is pretty much what you signed up for anyway.

 

[madmole]

the problem isn't that grenades are so hard to make, the problem is that a stack of grenades simply isn't enough.
I had 15 contact grenades, 20 molotovs and a box of explosive crossbow bolts (do those benefit from explosive perks?) but even if I was hitting three-to-five zombies per blast, I could spend all but the arrows in the first hour of the horde.

By horde four, the zombies don't stop coming until sunrise. 22:00 to 4:00

... we might have had zombies-per-player turned up, I dunno, I wasn't the host.

How much multiplayer do you play? I remember reading somewhere that you do a lot of your test-games solo, right?

Two or three people on horde 4 is a constant tide of zombies, alternating which direction they come from, for like four in-game hours. You'd need four or five stacks of grenades just to have enough to last until morning, and finding opertunities to use them is an issue too, because you can't throw them through iron bars (which we were both shooting through)

I considered trying to install a door horizontally, so I could open it up and toss grenades though without letting zombies in, but I never attempted it.

Tossing them from the roof only works until they're directly under you, at which point you can't throw them straight down without risking clipping the platform you're standing on, and blowing yourself up.

I'd really like a 4x4 hatch. Maybe with a sliding lid, like the rolling garage door, so we could install it into the floor or halfway up a wall and toss things through it.

Throwing grenades directly at the bars inside your base to kill zombies on the other side... works, but it's tricky in multiplayer, because people like to press their faces against the bars as they aim, and people don't really hear 'get away from the bars, i'm throwing grenades' over the loud-ass noises of a zombie getting fried by an electric fence.

More than anything, for a sniper-build, I want to be able to reinforce three sets of walls to force zombies to come at me from one direction, so i can use them as a shooting range, and get the most out of my mines.

... I don't use mines at all until I get the skillbook that makes you immune to them though. Too risky to leave unexploded ordinance laying around outside my base.

If I'm playing multiplayer, we ALL need to have it. I don't want to be blowing my friends up either.

I save them for big clusters of zombies and typically get 4 to 12k xp per grenade. Your problem is you have a mentality that you have to kill every zombie. Sometimes the best defense, is your defense. Just sit back and let them chew on your walls. let them pile up to a huge cluster then drop a well placed grenade and profit. You don't have to kill every damn zed as fast as they spawn, that is what thick walls are for. Let them take some blocks out, you should have several layers of blocks and multiple vault doors to fall back to, so its not a huge problem if they get through one wall.

Sure if I have loads of ammo, I'll just hose em all down, but you have to have a mental note of your ammo and the time. If you start with 5k ammo and 25 grenades at 10, that means at 1 am if you have less than 2500 ammo or 12 grenades you are going to run out of ammo at that rate and you need to just lay off the trigger for a bit. Focus on the vultures, fat cops and demolishers that can actually hurt you, and use grenades on big clusters and then do clean up at 4 am, problem solved.

 

[madmole]

The melee trap sounds good, but rather than a hammer, a swinging blade might seem more useable? Not unlike the blade-traps we have, but with just one blade, and like... hand-cranked, or something? How would it be used while held, though?

I stopped reading here because you need to respect my time and limit forum conversations to something most people can digest. A hammer would have some knockdown capability which as an INT guy that would be the most valuable. A bleeding zombie is still a dangerous one, so if you were smart (INT) you would want something that slows them or incapacitates them IMO.

 

[wolfbain5]

I stopped reading here because you need to respect my time and limit forum conversations to something most people can digest. A hammer would have some knockdown capability which as an INT guy that would be the most valuable. A bleeding zombie is still a dangerous one, so if you were smart (INT) you would want something that slows them or incapacitates them IMO.

true, a blade could bleed debuff a zed causing it to rage. a smart person would prefer stun or knockdown to prevent the rage. problem would be range.

perhaps a whip type doing knockdown like old fashioned d&d trip attacks? would have a small aoe. a sledge seems it would hit 1 square and that would be kind of useless.

 

[Laz Man]

Explosives are under Perception. How is that not good against crowds?

There Is also the penetrator perk for rifle users which should help those who funnel there zeds well during horde night.

- - - Updated - - -

I stopped reading here because you need to respect my time and limit forum conversations to something most people can digest. A hammer would have some knockdown capability which as an INT guy that would be the most valuable. A bleeding zombie is still a dangerous one, so if you were smart (INT) you would want something that slows them or incapacitates them IMO.

Hi MM, the planned changes to INT sounds exciting. Maybe replace stun batons with something more useful. (e.g. the melee turret u mentioned?)

 

[Laz Man]

Junk turrets will become tier 2 weapons, not available in loot early game. At first you will craft some sort of melee trap turret, like a junk turret with a swinging sledgehammer. Tier 3 might will be some kind of robot that can move and shoot, maybe it can even carry some things for you. So nobody will have a junk turret early game. We might even make them craft only the first half of the game at least.

Yes to robots...or mechs/gundams that the players can mount are fine too lol...

 

[MigrantYeti]

There Is also the penetrator perk for rifle users which should help those who funnel there zeds well during horde night.
- - - Updated - - -

Hi MM, the planned changes to INT sounds exciting. Maybe replace stun batons with something more useful. (e.g. the melee turret u mentioned?)

Agree, stun batons are cool in theory, but even with points invested pretty underpowered. The stunlock is great 1v1 but add a few more and your mediocre damage quickly gets you eaten unless you flee, maybe allow the glancing blow to apply the stun to a group (whenever it actually works as intended and not just as a zed rage bait to get you murdered)

 

[Thecolours]

Junk turrets will become tier 2 weapons, not available in loot early game. At first you will craft some sort of melee trap turret, like a junk turret with a swinging sledgehammer. Tier 3 might will be some kind of robot that can move and shoot, maybe it can even carry some things for you. So nobody will have a junk turret early game. We might even make them craft only the first half of the game at least.

That sounds amazing. I need this in A19.

 

[iamnuff]

I save them for big clusters of zombies and typically get 4 to 12k xp per grenade. Your problem is you have a mentality that you have to kill every zombie. Sometimes the best defense, is your defense. Just sit back and let them chew on your walls. let them pile up to a huge cluster then drop a well placed grenade and profit. You don't have to kill every damn zed as fast as they spawn, that is what thick walls are for. Let them take some blocks out, you should have several layers of blocks and multiple vault doors to fall back to, so its not a huge problem if they get through one wall.
Sure if I have loads of ammo, I'll just hose em all down, but you have to have a mental note of your ammo and the time. If you start with 5k ammo and 25 grenades at 10, that means at 1 am if you have less than 2500 ammo or 12 grenades you are going to run out of ammo at that rate and you need to just lay off the trigger for a bit. Focus on the vultures, fat cops and demolishers that can actually hurt you, and use grenades on big clusters and then do clean up at 4 am, problem solved.

On default zombie damage, they tear through concrete in seconds when they cluster up, and I can't throw grenades straight down from my roof (only throwing area that I can find)

The only option we've been able to come up with is ensuring that we have 3-5k of rifle-ammo each, on each horde-night.

We mine typically spend two or so days per week just getting the lead, coal and nitrate together, and we're always on the lookout for brass. Though the realisation that in-house radiators drop brass radiators when you destroy them with a pick eased that worry, a little.

Laying off the trigger isn't actually an option, because your house will be destroyed, and you will die.

Edit: I did ask how often you play in small multiplayer groups. I think you're vastly underestimating how many zombies are showing up on my horde nights.

 

[iamnuff]

I stopped reading here because you need to respect my time and limit forum conversations to something most people can digest.

... what on earth is this supposed to mean?

Did I suddenly start confusing you with high level math and theoretical physics?

What about my post was beyond your ability to digest, exactly?

It's a big chunk of text, sure. Most of my comments are. I've got a lot to say.

Would you prefer if i broke it up into 10-20 smaller, bite-sized comments for you?

Cuz that's often treated as doubleposting or spam on many forums.

I'm respecting your time and your intelligence by assuming that you can read a couple of hundred words in one go without getting bored or losing interest. As for your time... well, this is a forum.

Do you want feedback or not? Large posts contain a lot of it. 'High density', you might call it.

As for a hammer... I'd assume that an INT-guy would recognise dead zombies are more valuable than knocked-over zombies, and that a trap that moves something around in a circle uses less energy than something that goes up and down.

Making it bladed might be overpowered if it could cripple though, so a rotary-legbreaker might be more suitable, with a hammer or club attachment that spins horizontally at knee-height.

true, a blade could bleed debuff a zed causing it to rage. a smart person would prefer stun or knockdown to prevent the rage. problem would be range.

And getting bashed over the head wouldn't make them rage?

Not really sure where MM is getting this 'a hammer is a smart man's weapon' idea from, tbh.

Although granted, in-game hammers and clubs are actually way stronger than knives and machetes as weapons, so... maybe zombies are just harder to cut than they are to bash.

And yeah, range is going to be an issue with this trap, I forsee having to kite enemies back and forth in-front of it.

That's why I keep suggesting that the trap swings sideways, so it can hit all the squares around it, like the blade-trap does, rather than a simple up/down hammering motion, which would probably make it useless, even if it can freely rotate to target stuff behind it.

 

[Drunknmunkey]

So bare with me for a second. Game balancing.

Could parts be smelted? Currently they can't. It's difficult to make a non-int build and make a base even with the trader and schematics.

I'm attempting a perception build and base building without mining. I'm relying on the traders inventory. I'm level 55, it's day 31, on warrior setting with exp at 200%.

I haven't been able to "finish" my base/fighting patform or participate in a BM other than hiding on a roof.

While I'm glad traders have cement mix, across 4 traders it simply isn't enough. The duke cost is also a problem. Early, I can't afford the cement as my quest rewards and item selling is terrible. Later, they simply don't have enough resources.

I can sell the parts for more dukes but, if the trader doesn't have enough metal or cement to buy, the extra cash is redundant.

Most of the parts collected at the moment are basically worthless unless you have points in that skill or want a few extra dukes.

The ability to smelt these parts for extra metal would be a benefit in my mind. I would rather have the metal than the dukes early game. Most of us know the skill route we are taking and collecting those parts we are not going to use seems like a waste of space. And yet, many of us, myself included, can't let go of any loot and it just stacks up endlessly without being used.

*sits on 50 sham chowder*

NO I can't sell it, It's important, and the sell price is crap for the effort it took to make it!.. .. ..

"Howdy, stranger!"

*selling 40 sham chowder sir.... sniff*

"Much obliged."

 

[wolfbain5]

And getting bashed over the head wouldn't make them rage?

Not really sure where MM is getting this 'a hammer is a smart man's weapon' idea from, tbh.

Although granted, in-game hammers and clubs are actually way stronger than knives and machetes as weapons, so... maybe zombies are just harder to cut than they are to bash.

.

you are ignoring game logic, stun doesnt damage, knockdown doesnt damage. bleed does damage over time so each tick is a rage chance.

 

[iamnuff]

you are ignoring game logic, stun doesnt damage, knockdown doesnt damage. bleed does damage over time so each tick is a rage chance.

Huh, I assumed it was per-hit or per-status-effect-applied.

You could remove the bleed-chance and just leave a dismember chance, or...

Well, I assume it's going to be rapid-attacking anyway, otherwise it probably wouldn't be very useful, so the rage-change is going to be pretty high anyway.

Maybe they should remove the rage chance from bleed ticks anyway though, since it doesn't make a lot of sense anyway. Being enraged by being attack makes sense, but zombies shouldn't feel pain, so lingering wounds should have no effect on them.

Also, it bladed weapons kind of need all the buffs they can get, given how powerful blunt weapons are.

Bleed isn't really comparable to stun or knockdown, and lots of blunt weapons have both.

 

[meganoth]

Could parts be smelted? Currently they can't. It's difficult to make a non-int build and make a base even with the trader and schematics.

I'm attempting a perception build and base building without mining. I'm relying on the traders inventory. I'm level 55, it's day 31, on warrior setting with exp at 200%.

I haven't been able to "finish" my base/fighting patform or participate in a BM other than hiding on a roof.

Sure it is difficult. Setting exp at 200% actually gives you less time to prepare for much more difficult horde nights that ramp up faster because your gamestage goes up faster than normal.

If you don't want to mine you have to get your building resources mainly from cobblestone and cement stacks you find in POI's.

 

[Laz Man]

...I can't throw grenades straight down from my roof (only throwing area that I can find)...

Well theres one problem that you can adjust right there. There are plenty of base strats out there to fix that.

Also, it would help if you list what difficulty settings you guys are using as well as which horde night (e.g. # of players, GS for each, etc.)

 

[faatal]

I'm respecting your time and your intelligence by assuming that you can read a couple of hundred words in one go without getting bored or losing interest...

It is not just your posts here, there are also a lot of others to read. And yes I also tend to skim over large posts as I'm sure others do too.

 

[faatal]

Huh, I assumed it was per-hit or per-status-effect-applied.
You could remove the bleed-chance and just leave a dismember chance, or...

Well, I assume it's going to be rapid-attacking anyway, otherwise it probably wouldn't be very useful, so the rage-change is going to be pretty high anyway.

Maybe they should remove the rage chance from bleed ticks anyway though, since it doesn't make a lot of sense anyway. Being enraged by being attack makes sense, but zombies shouldn't feel pain, so lingering wounds should have no effect on them.

Also, it bladed weapons kind of need all the buffs they can get, given how powerful blunt weapons are.

Bleed isn't really comparable to stun or knockdown, and lots of blunt weapons have both.

On default difficulty, bleeds are 3% chance per second, so not that high.

They can feel pain if we want them too. They see, hear, smell and think to some degree. If they could not feel, then you could just stab or bash them in the back and they would never turn around, since they would not feel it.

 

[bayaholic]

I am doing my first blade build. I feel like the bleeding debuff from zeds should not cause them to rage.

As is with the knife and agility build, you are already at a disadvantage because once you slice them, they rage from your hit, then dont stop running because of the constant bleeding debuff rage.

Clubs will stun and knock them down. Kind of a safer option but then they need to bring a blade to skin animals. Loss of inventory slot.

 

[iamnuff]

It is not just your posts here, there are also a lot of others to read. And yes I also tend to skim over large posts as I'm sure others do too.

For a developer, reading through a feedback thread, a large post is much more valuable than a small one.

You're getting more potentially usable data per line in a single 900 word post than you would in 20 posts that were each 1/10th of the wordcount, because it's dense and usually on all on the same couple of topics.

Is it useful data? I couldn't say, since I'm not a developer on this game, And neither could madmole, since he didn't read it.

Frankly, if you're not willing to put the effort in to read less than a thousand words of willingly provided high-density feedback, then I'm not sure why you're... in a feedback thread.

Like, actually? Why bother?

Also, the comment about time is kind of insulting.

What? You think I just crapped that out? You think it didn't take me time to write it? More time than it'd take you to read it, that's for sure.

But I spent that time, because I was willing to take a couple of minutes to try to provide something that just might be useful for the development of the game, as we all are in this thread.

That's literally why we#re all in here.

Does that obligate anybody to read my posts? No! Of course not!

But at least don't act like i'm at fault for you being intimidated by a moderate amount of text.

Read it or ignore it, as is your preference, but don't complain that I've provided too much data.