PC Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[SnowDog1942]

I'm not raging either. I just think that the problem really is good old fashioned lag and nothing you've said in any of your descriptions has disabused me of my opinion. It just fits in every way. It's like you're telling me that you think you might be dehydrated and you want me to tell you how to fix it but I'm not allowed to use the words "water" or "drink" -- otherwise you'll be convinced I'm not taking the problem seriously and that I just want to put you off and end the conversation.

I get it, I fully understand I’m not gonna convince you otherwise. I would just like to hear you attempt to answer something I keep mentioning that you haven’t responded to. Why is this the only game I host or play that anyone complains about the latency for? There is no good explanation so the answer is probably, the game.

 

[xfejiou5]

There's no way to make this not sound condescending so apologies in advance:
I have had to teach family members the outer range of being able to hit zombies and it is always further away than they thought it was. They were getting hit mainly because they would wait to swing until they were what they felt was close enough to hit but it was way closer than it needed to be and so they were often getting tagged by the zombie and feeling like combat was trading hits.

Maybe people (even experienced veterans) should do a double check and make sure they've found the actual max range they can stand and still hit a zombie with their weapon. It is definitely outside the range that they can hit back. Once learned you will almost never get hit when striking and this also applies to MP.

I know the inclination is to look at my post as trying to deflect blame from the coding and tell people to git gud but I seriously do believe that people are typically standing closer than they need to in order to strike their target. This was also the case back when falling trees could kill. I watched "proof videos" of the "problem" and in every case the player was practically humping the tree as they chopped instead of standing back from it.

Too bad it all resulted in falling trees no longer doing lethal damage. Would love to get that back so we could make them fall on approaching zombies again.

I don't have issues with getting hit (though my friend does; super clumsy ) but still think the melee range was way more intuitive in 17 (or whatever version it was before it was changed).

 

[meganoth]

I'm not raging either. I just think that the problem really is good old fashioned lag and nothing you've said in any of your descriptions has disabused me of my opinion. It just fits in every way. It's like you're telling me that you think you might be dehydrated and you want me to tell you how to fix it but I'm not allowed to use the words "water" or "drink" -- otherwise you'll be convinced I'm not taking the problem seriously and that I just want to put you off and end the conversation.

I don't think Snowdog is saying that lag hasn't anything to do with the issue. But that there are other factors, for example the quality and maturity of the network code. If most other MP games have solved common lag issues and 7D2D has not (at the moment), then there is room for improvement.

I sometimes hear about some AAA multiplayer game having network issues at release. Often after some rounds of patches those problems go away. The logical conclusions:

1) There is no universal network library games can just include that simply solves lag issues,

2) Games are different in how well they solve lag (or packet loss) issues on the network

 

[Blake_]

It should be the range that a player's weapon reaches to. The contact point of the punch, should be the range. If a sledgehammer, then where the head of the hammer reaches to. A zombie should hit where their hand reaches to. Short arms shorter range. Long arms longer.
In SP it is pretty basic, since there is no latency other than the time to animate. In MP you have that plus latency, so it is not going to be perfect and yes the enemies could use a bit shorter distance than their visible attack length.

Yes, "a block" distance was an unaccurate example, but you did get my point.

Shorter armpits confirmed!

 

[Laz Man]

I'm not raging either. I just think that the problem really is good old fashioned lag and nothing you've said in any of your descriptions has disabused me of my opinion. It just fits in every way. It's like you're telling me that you think you might be dehydrated and you want me to tell you how to fix it but I'm not allowed to use the words "water" or "drink" -- otherwise you'll be convinced I'm not taking the problem seriously and that I just want to put you off and end the conversation.

Honestly I'm sure there is more to it then latency. The sledgehammer for example, Going from memory, I recall doing a power swing at a zombies head as it approached and missing royally. (Sp)

My gut is telling me that because the sledge hammer head takes up so much of my screen that there is no way a massive object like that can possibly miss, when in reality it did because my target cursor was off...

Would need to do some tests multiple times to confirm of course.

Edit: to counter missing with a sledge power swing. I more often then not go for a center mass body swing which has worked for me.

 

[Roland]

We need to be clear about the issues because we aren’t all talking about the same thing. I’m talking about getting hit by a zombie when you melee and it appears you shouldn’t have been hit at all.

Seeing arrows go through a zombie and missing or swinging a sledge and missing when it looks like it should have hit are different issues and those issues happen on SP as often as on MP in my experience.

Why does it happen to the degree it does with 7 Days but not other games? Probably because it’s harder to render a 1:1 ratio between host and client for a voxel game. As they continue to optimize it might get better but I really doubt it’s ever going to be ideal for P2P gaming where the host is running the server on the same computer he is playing on.

 

[madmole]

It should be the range that a player's weapon reaches to. The contact point of the punch, should be the range. If a sledgehammer, then where the head of the hammer reaches to. A zombie should hit where their hand reaches to. Short arms shorter range. Long arms longer.
In SP it is pretty basic, since there is no latency other than the time to animate. In MP you have that plus latency, so it is not going to be perfect and yes the enemies could use a bit shorter distance than their visible attack length.

We tried reducing enemy range once and the combat became pathetic it was so easy.

 

[bdubyah]

I also think sometimes animations are an issue. They don't always seem to line up with what the zombie is doing. Crawlers seem to be the most obvious.

 

[madmole]

speaking of multiplayer and trees
my wife and I are playing together, and I am hosting on my pc. she is 1 to 2 shotting alot of trees with an orange axe. she isnt getting much wood either. it is only happening in poi's. they are acting fine for me tho

I've seen that problem with save upgrades, I assumed it was changing block data.

 

[Perlin_Worm]

Would like to bring up difficulty balance in general on default settings. I find the first two horde nights (day 7, 14) to be noob friendly, yet challenging but not a pushover. It is perfect in my opinion. Though, instead of a progression of difficulty from there, I find day 21 to be the day Fun Pimps drop you into the slaughter. Non-stop Radiated plus demolishers combined with AI on steroids that sniff out every weak spot in your defense. Somewhat overwhelming. I love the challenge, but wish it would progress a bit more linear early on.

Regular day/night challenge is just the opposite. I find it not as challenging as a17, especially when it comes to POI looting. I think the combination of thinned out zombie count in the world and high drop rates of early gun/ammo is the cause. Every new patch seems to be addressing this however, so as of the last stable it is less of a problem thanks to loot table changes.

 

[DaVegaNL]

I'm not raging either. I just think that the problem really is good old fashioned lag and nothing you've said in any of your descriptions has disabused me of my opinion. It just fits in every way. It's like you're telling me that you think you might be dehydrated and you want me to tell you how to fix it but I'm not allowed to use the words "water" or "drink" -- otherwise you'll be convinced I'm not taking the problem seriously and that I just want to put you off and end the conversation.

There's definitely a latency problem in 7 days. Or whatever fancy word the youth uses for it nowadays.

 

[Laz Man]

Would like to bring up difficulty balance in general on default settings. I find the first two horde nights (day 7, 14) to be noob friendly, yet challenging but not a pushover. It is perfect in my opinion. Though, instead of a progression of difficulty from there, I find day 21 to be the day Fun Pimps drop you into the slaughter. Non-stop Radiated plus demolishers combined with AI on steroids that sniff out every weak spot in your defense. Somewhat overwhelming. I love the challenge, but wish it would progress a bit more linear early on.
Regular day/night challenge is just the opposite. I find it not as challenging as a17, especially when it comes to POI looting. I think the combination of thinned out zombie count in the world and high drop rates of early gun/ammo is the cause. Every new patch seems to be addressing this however, so as of the last stable it is less of a problem thanks to loot table changes.

I assume your playing MP? I'm past day 50, lvl 48ish, GS 120ish (SP) and just started getting radiated the last couple of horde nights (49/42). Adventurer diff., 16 max alive. 18.1.

 

[kidmo31]

Ok love so far the direction of the game. My only issue seems to be the lack of population in the world of Zombies. I dont know if it was a balancing choice or a system resource choice. I know by tweaking the XMLs i can get 50-60 zombies in game with 0 hiccups but then again I am running a overkill rig for this game. I also know your trying to keep the game within the requirements laid out when you launched. It might be be necessary to update those requirements to progress the game outside of its original vision.

 

[madmole]

Would like to bring up difficulty balance in general on default settings. I find the first two horde nights (day 7, 14) to be noob friendly, yet challenging but not a pushover. It is perfect in my opinion. Though, instead of a progression of difficulty from there, I find day 21 to be the day Fun Pimps drop you into the slaughter. Non-stop Radiated plus demolishers combined with AI on steroids that sniff out every weak spot in your defense. Somewhat overwhelming. I love the challenge, but wish it would progress a bit more linear early on.
Regular day/night challenge is just the opposite. I find it not as challenging as a17, especially when it comes to POI looting. I think the combination of thinned out zombie count in the world and high drop rates of early gun/ammo is the cause. Every new patch seems to be addressing this however, so as of the last stable it is less of a problem thanks to loot table changes.

Unless you have XP cranked up to max or play in a party that just isn't the normal use case. I don't start seeing ferals until about day 28 and they are sparse. Radiated until level 40 to 50... demolishers even later. What settings do you use to get GS so high so fast?

 

[madmole]

Ok love so far the direction of the game. My only issue seems to be the lack of population in the world of Zombies. I dont know if it was a balancing choice or a system resource choice. I know by tweaking the XMLs i can get 50-60 zombies in game with 0 hiccups but then again I am running a overkill rig for this game. I also know your trying to keep the game within the requirements laid out when you launched. It might be be necessary to update those requirements to progress the game outside of its original vision.

Its a balance between performance and design. More zombies standing around annoying you out in the wild doesn't really add any game play. They can't hurt you unless you let them. Cities are already slow from detailed POIs, so adding more to cities is challenging on older rigs. We don't even have city spawn groups so we can't even say its more busy in cities yet either. The plan is to write some kind of random event manager that populates predicted areas players are moving to with some mini event so everywhere you go there is a chance something big could happen, but not just spawn guys everywhere with no way to despawn them elegantly.

 

[Lonestarcanuck]

Any thoughts about having a Job board in each town/city ? like the hiding citizens are trying to get buildings cleared?

 

[bobross]

Unless you have XP cranked up to max or play in a party that just isn't the normal use case. I don't start seeing ferals until about day 28 and they are sparse. Radiated until level 40 to 50... demolishers even later. What settings do you use to get GS so high so fast?

Dollars to donuts he's playing MP with 2-3 other people. I know I keep harping on it and you're almost certainly getting tired of it, but it's really an actual concern. I started with MP because my friends dragged me in, and never really played SP. The way its set up now, Hour 21 is going to crush any group of newbies that decided it'd be cool to play together, and there goes those players.

 

[El_Thac0]

I'm loving the new perk trees. I've run through 3 different builds and each one felt like a new experience because I was focusing on different types of weapons and hunting/gathering vs farming/mining.

Perception felt a little weaker than the other trees, especially questing and looting POIs. The spear is a fun new addition, but it's got really low stopping power compared to other weapons (even the perked up fists really let you smack z's around in melee). Sniper rifles are less effective in close quarters, especially when you run into a large group in a small space (like at end of the Shamway factory).

So your main firearm is optimized for single target at long range (and very loud), and when you inevitably get forced into a brawl (like with the huge groups of construction workers) you also have a melee specialization with really low stun chance and no sweep attack.

Would you consider swapping the spear and bladed weapon perks?

Now that bleeds apply a slow it would fit the sniper flavor. If you get caught in close quarters you can give them a quick slice then create some space to line up a shot.

The spear also feels like a really great weapon to sneak up and throw into unsuspecting targets because the throw does so much damage, but I lost a couple of good spears because the target took off running with it. I started putting points into Hidden Strike on my Perception build just because of how bad it was to throw my main weapon into a target and instead of dying it alerted its friends and now I've got 2 other Z's in my face and no spear in hand. The answer to that was to start carrying a secondary weapon or throwing lower level spears, but that starts to eat up your toolbar. If you're going to throw a precious Steel Spear at all you want a massive sneak bonus so the target dies instantly and you can sneak over and pick it up.

Plus, because of the extra reach on the spear, when you're first starting out on a fresh AGI build the extra reach would help you still get those sneaky stabby kills when you only have 1 or 2 points in Ninja Movement and can't get as close without waking the target up. Over all, the spear just feels like it's the optimal melee weapon for stealth kills, and Perception could use a melee weapon that's stronger in a brawl to complement its weaker ranged options indoors.

Just some food for thought.

(I know the simple solution is to just start bringing a shotgun when questing because they're still highly effective even without the perks, but then I found I was never really using the weapons I invested perks into, except on horde night.)

When I really wanted to use my rifle in a POI I'd find a choke point and drop a spike trap in it, then make a bunch of noise. It was a fun game of trying to pick off everything that came running before they broke through, but you'd have to bust it down again before proceeding. I might update the Infiltrator perk so users can pick up any non-powered traps like spikes and mines much earlier in the tree. Then they could set up and take down sniper nests and clear by luring. (Plus I don't think I'll ever take that perk just for the reduced mine damage. Mines are so very rarely an issue unless you accidentally drive over one)

 

[cnconrad]

Tried editing tools, broke my game. Keeps me stuck in God mode.

Steps:

Started a new game played for a few hours.

Decided to check out the map a little and clicked on editing tools.

Clicked world editor

Clicked "Pregen02"

Flew around a bit, noticed that I was holding all my regular inventory. I thought that was wierd but quit out after I found a trader.

Started up my game again and was stuck in God mode.

I'm kind of sad I could ruin my game like that with no indication that everything would be instantly broken.

TFP any help????

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Any thoughts about having a Job board in each town/city ? like the hiding citizens are trying to get buildings cleared?

I like that idea. Might be a good alternative to worrying about the continuation of low-tier quests from the trader.

What’s the reward and how would you deliver it to the player in a reasonable way without the need for all these NPCs?