PC After 4000 hours with a11-a16, I won't spend much time in a17x. Here's why... no fun!

[Thunderfrog]

No. You got it wrong.
....

Thanks for your feedback on this. The devs are aware that the new skill system isn’t fun for everyone. Loyalty is easy when everything is just as you like it. I’m interested to see how far loyalty extends through undesired changes.

...

......

TFP doesn't have loyalty to us on the individual level. Madmole doesn't care what little ol' Thunderfrog thinks. He cares about sorting us into piles of Thunderfrogs, Rolands, and Undecideds, then seeing which one of those groups is worth them spending development time on to appease, as well as whether or not they can even appease those groups, and finally whether or not appeasing those groups is worth altering their own vision of the game or upsetting an opposed group with conflicting wants.

Because of that, we really don't owe Fun Pimps much in the way of loyalty either. There's lot of games competing for our time and money (because even if you paid for the game long ago, I would hope most of us donate to our favorite servers at least once a month!), and if TFP ignore your demographic then you should rightfully consider finding another game or experience that suits you.

Loyalty to a capitalist brand is folly and will 100% end if heartbreak when you realize they don't care about you individually like you care about them.

If you want 7 Days to be Call of Duty with voxels, there came a point where TFP sorted their paying customers into piles and decided that pile definitely wasn't going to get what it wanted. It's not a matter of loyalty if you decide to keep moving or move on. It's finding the game developer that will make your time well spent and your money well spent. This is much easier to do with a finished product, since 7 Days is basically a giant tinkering experiment in programming.

TFP changes and keeps changing because this game makes them money. I will bet a dollar to a donut that there will never be a final complete version of this game marketed. It will come after they've made their decision that 7 Days doesn't pay the bills anymore, and they are ready to move to a new project. We will get a final "Good enough" build that's easily modded, so that modders can fix their remaining problems, and they'll wash their hands of the game to spend development hours elsewhere.

That's will be the final end of TFP's idea of "Alpha Build", and pretty much anyone who has paid attention to the development cycle of Alpha games can see this.

Thus, Fun Pimps and their forum mods should NOT be judging us on the merits of our loyalty. They are going to do whats best for their wallets, over all else, and we should do whats best for our gaming time. (Especially those older gamers who don't have entire days to game anymore.)

Loyalty isn't a factor at all.

 

[badmojo]

It's like some people here are unwilling to accept any criticism as valid unless the criticisms are delivered from an overly polite and apologetic customer service representative. And our criticisms apparently have to be unified across the board. If some people complain about X Y and Z, you better not have someone else complain about A B and C or else everything can be safely ignored because... inconsistency deems it so.

If <your complaint> contains <words & tones I dislike> or =/= <everyone elses opinion> then it can be safely dismissed.

It's not politics here, nuance and details are very important. Generalizations and hurt feelings are just avoiding the real issues. Don't get so triggered, it's video game mechanics, we play this ♥♥♥♥ for fun damnit. It's not an important life changing issue, just relax and be objective, on both sides.

 

[DaVegaNL]

A lot of people can't handle change.. what else is new?

A17 is so far one of the best alpha releases of this game. Period. Anyone else remember a16.4 where you had a forge up and running on day 1? Talk about a survival game.. hah.

The game is finally a challenge again.

 

[mr.devolver]

TFP doesn't have loyalty to us on the individual level. Madmole doesn't care what little ol' Thunderfrog thinks. He cares about sorting us into piles of Thunderfrogs, Rolands, and Undecideds, then seeing which one of those groups is worth them spending development time on to appease, as well as whether or not they can even appease those groups, and finally whether or not appeasing those groups is worth altering their own vision of the game or upsetting an opposed group with conflicting wants.
Because of that, we really don't owe Fun Pimps much in the way of loyalty either. There's lot of games competing for our time and money (because even if you paid for the game long ago, I would hope most of us donate to our favorite servers at least once a month!), and if TFP ignore your demographic then you should rightfully consider finding another game or experience that suits you.

Loyalty to a capitalist brand is folly and will 100% end if heartbreak when you realize they don't care about you individually like you care about them.

If you want 7 Days to be Call of Duty with voxels, there came a point where TFP sorted their paying customers into piles and decided that pile definitely wasn't going to get what it wanted. It's not a matter of loyalty if you decide to keep moving or move on. It's finding the game developer that will make your time well spent and your money well spent. This is much easier to do with a finished product, since 7 Days is basically a giant tinkering experiment in programming.

TFP changes and keeps changing because this game makes them money. I will bet a dollar to a donut that there will never be a final complete version of this game marketed. It will come after they've made their decision that 7 Days doesn't pay the bills anymore, and they are ready to move to a new project. We will get a final "Good enough" build that's easily modded, so that modders can fix their remaining problems, and they'll wash their hands of the game to spend development hours elsewhere.

That's will be the final end of TFP's idea of "Alpha Build", and pretty much anyone who has paid attention to the development cycle of Alpha games can see this.

Thus, Fun Pimps and their forum mods should NOT be judging us on the merits of our loyalty. They are going to do whats best for their wallets, over all else, and we should do whats best for our gaming time. (Especially those older gamers who don't have entire days to game anymore.)

Loyalty isn't a factor at all.

You know, it's fine. We tried, but there's no reason to waste more time trying to open the discussion if it ends up being ignored in the end and our opinions are going to be dismissed. We tried and offered our time and willingnes to help to improve the game by providing our feedback, so they know we are here, they know where to find us if and when they change their minds and actually decide to find out what we believe would be good for the game.

- - - Updated - - -

A lot of people can't handle change.. what else is new?
A17 is so far one of the best alpha releases of this game. Period. Anyone else remember a16.4 where you had a forge up and running on day 1? Talk about a survival game.. hah.

The game is finally a challenge again.

Oh please... Nobody denies you your personal opinion, but don't act like you're speaking for everyone here. You can only speak for yourself.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Oh and people were using statistics? Lets talk numbers then very briefly. The percentage of positive reviews on steam just went up from 62% to 80%.

 

[mr.devolver]

Oh and people were using statistics? Lets talk numbers then very briefly. The percentage of positive reviews on steam just went up from 62% to 80%.

Yeah... Statistics... You have 2 breads for 2 people. First person ate 2 breads, the second person ate 0 breads, but statistically speaking they both ate 1 bread so everything is in perfect balance and everyone is surely happy...

“I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself”

― Winston S. Churchill

 

[elucidus]

Yeah... Statistics... You have 2 breads for 2 people. First person ate 2 breads, the second person ate 0 breads, but statistically speaking they both ate 1 bread so everything is in perfect balance and everyone is surely happy...

So like 87% of statisctics are made up, is what comes to mind.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Roland ... stop ... posting ... for ... Christs ... sake.
You are a moderator.

If you want to post like everybody else and praise 7D2D, revoke your title and powers. If not, then please start acting like a moderator, that means looking at who oversteps forum rules, give out accurate information and above all, not having a suck a personal opinion or fanboyism.

That comes down to ... STOP ... TROLLING ... PEOPLE who are clearly upset.

This whole attitude of we are going to break records, is so illogical. Its been 16 months from the last big release. That means 16 months of more ales. We had black Friday sales discounts on 7D2D going on. A very big streamers, Youtubers presents unlike before hyping A17, how great it is. Lets not forget A17 was hyped for how long now by the players and developers. By any logic, it stands for reason that A17 needs to break records. When people point out the numbers are not great despite the above mentioned points, you really do not need to come in with a smug attitude how everybody is wrong. ESPECIALLY not as official moderator.

And its peaking at only 26k in the weekend. If i was a TFP position, i be actually worried about those numbers.

My personal opinion is that the OP is correct, just badly worded some lines.

The new AI is great ( needs some work on random variate because they act a it too similar now ). Visuals are great. A lot of small and positive changes. 7D2D has made a lot of positive improvements in A17 but has also been reworked in such a way that is flawed.

For developers that claim to have mod support in their genetics, it seems bringing back the old skill gain by usage system. TFPs literally made a game where they considered those old behaviors useless and removed all access from the xmls to it. Forcing mod developers to got to pure game hacking to try and reenable this code ( and failing at it ).

Do you see how many people are working on actually reenabling a lot of the old scrapped features. Using sometimes incredible and complex hacks. Personally i find TFPs extreme arrogant. This is the game they always envisioned yet, they clearly did not think that people may actually like the old system. Let alone leave the ability in the XMLs for mod developers to simply enable them again if they wanted. But no, everything seems to have been rewritten in such a way its even harder to mod in old behavior.

I personally think TFPs have been so much living in there own world, they forgot what actually sold 7D2D its millions of copies.

People pretending to speak for the 'silent majority'.. what else is new? A17e rocks. You don't like it? Fine. I think TFP can live without your approval.

 

[Sellsents]

ya but that's what everyone said before.
Some people hid underground on horde night because they didn't enjoy that aspect. Then other players complained about them doing it. The others said let them play the way they want and you play the way you want. Their play style doesn't affect yours... Now that's removed. The devs, changed it to make it less enjoyable for individual play style and only enjoyable for some.

Before everyone was able to play the way they wanted. Now they can't.

People keep saying they enjoyed starting over because it was fun (including myself). Now those same people are saying the start sucks because it's so boring to bonk hundreds of zombies just to learn a new skill.

Well I guess they can, they can play previous unoptimized alphas. Or mods to remove these new changes.

Generally people kept asking for more end game content. Not rework the system and still have no end game content.

and yes I know, it's still alpha but they just muddled up the system and still haven't any end game content.

Exactly what I tried to say in serveral posts now. Maybe its because of my bad english, I don´t know, but I feel that instead of improving the game to a point where people are able to play the game how they like and enjoy it and can be creativ TFP tries to narrow the playstyle down to only one path. For me this is like ripping the heart out of this beautiful sandbox game and I ask myself why do they do that? Why does they change the core of the game when they where on the right path by adding more content to it.

They introduced electricity and traps in the last Alpha which improved the game so much in my opinion. now they added additional vehicles which gives you more mobility, they added new recipes to the game, more building content, new houses and improved the textures. This are all great steps in the right direction.

But then on the other hand they started to cut deep into the heart of the game by removing things that where implemented to improve the game in the first place. They removed biomes which added a lot to the game and makes rwg look like ... now. They introduced skycrapers and made big cities and now take that away from rwg worlds. They force you to slaughter hundreds of zombies to gain vital xp. They make the zombies so strong and the AI so stupid that it turnes basebuilding into a nightmare, because all zombies now head in one direction and this is the weakspot. So building becomes all about focusing on one hotspot which is in most cases the doorway or in absense of a doorway the brick that gets the first hit. They make the player eat all day long just to regain stamina. And instead of giving the player the ability to carry more by adding a lot of extra slots to the existing inventory which you then can unlock with points or books, they simply cut the existing slots in half and force you to put points into this perk so you are able to carry the same stuff in your inventory that you could at day one before this Alpha.

I waited so long for Alpha17. And I was so hyped. I even took the time to watch some streams and this is something I normally don´t do. But now I am back at Alpha16 and i will stay there until a new version of the game gets released or TFP changes some fundamental things in Alpha17. In the last years I was playing every experimental build from the day it got released and even if it took a while to adapt to some versions, I always did and stood by this version and never looked back. This is the first time I choose to uninstall an experimental. I am very disappointed in TFP and I know I am not alone.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Yeah... Statistics... You have 2 breads for 2 people. First person ate 2 breads, the second person ate 0 breads, but statistically speaking they both ate 1 bread so everything is in perfect balance and everyone is surely happy...

“I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself”

― Winston S. Churchill

Yep good quote. So I'm guessing TFP don't have to take into account your displeasure with a17e, right? Since you're just one more person in the game.

- - - Updated - - -

A huge chunk of the negative posts are worthless, because it's just "this sucks, tfp is going to lose customers!".
...not exactly constructive. Or worth reading. Unless you're me, because I have no life.

No-lifers, unite!

Feels weird, defending 7 days to die.

OH MY GOD WHAT DID I BECOME?!

 

[Roland]

TFP doesn't have loyalty to us on the individual level. Madmole doesn't care what little ol' Thunderfrog thinks. He cares about sorting us into piles of Thunderfrogs, Rolands, and Undecideds, then seeing which one of those groups is worth them spending development time on to appease, as well as whether or not they can even appease those groups, and finally whether or not appeasing those groups is worth altering their own vision of the game or upsetting an opposed group with conflicting wants.
Because of that, we really don't owe Fun Pimps much in the way of loyalty either. There's lot of games competing for our time and money (because even if you paid for the game long ago, I would hope most of us donate to our favorite servers at least once a month!), and if TFP ignore your demographic then you should rightfully consider finding another game or experience that suits you.

Loyalty to a capitalist brand is folly and will 100% end if heartbreak when you realize they don't care about you individually like you care about them.

If you want 7 Days to be Call of Duty with voxels, there came a point where TFP sorted their paying customers into piles and decided that pile definitely wasn't going to get what it wanted. It's not a matter of loyalty if you decide to keep moving or move on. It's finding the game developer that will make your time well spent and your money well spent. This is much easier to do with a finished product, since 7 Days is basically a giant tinkering experiment in programming.

TFP changes and keeps changing because this game makes them money. I will bet a dollar to a donut that there will never be a final complete version of this game marketed. It will come after they've made their decision that 7 Days doesn't pay the bills anymore, and they are ready to move to a new project. We will get a final "Good enough" build that's easily modded, so that modders can fix their remaining problems, and they'll wash their hands of the game to spend development hours elsewhere.

That's will be the final end of TFP's idea of "Alpha Build", and pretty much anyone who has paid attention to the development cycle of Alpha games can see this.

Thus, Fun Pimps and their forum mods should NOT be judging us on the merits of our loyalty. They are going to do whats best for their wallets, over all else, and we should do whats best for our gaming time. (Especially those older gamers who don't have entire days to game anymore.)

Loyalty isn't a factor at all.

Well loyalty was a stated factor to the guy I was answering. But I agree with you that there isn’t really loyalty. That was my point. I don’t really expect people to keep playing a game they don’t like just out of loyalty. Which is why his use of the word to try and argue that TFP should not have made the changes they did was misguided.

As to the rest of what you posted, THAT is simply an example of jaded cynicism. Once again people miss the fact that some people do consider the changes fun, the devs themselves being among them. But no, it bolsters your opinion to make it be about greed.

It really is as simple as them creating the game they like to play themselves.

 

[mr.devolver]

Yep good quote. So I'm guessing TFP don't have to take into account your displeasure with a17e, right? Since you're just one more person in the game.
- - - Updated - - -

No-lifers, unite!

Feels weird, defending 7 days to die.

OH MY GOD WHAT DID I BECOME?!

I was simply portraying one way you can do statistics, don't try to find anything else there.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Pre A17 the recent reviews on steam were mixed. Post A17 they are very positive.
I mean... I'm not sure what proof you have that most people hate it besides a few loudmouths on the forums, but to me it seems like its doing great.

Pre-a17e forum critics, unite!

You know.. or get a coffee together or something..

 

[Roland]

It's like some people here are unwilling to accept any criticism as valid unless the criticisms are delivered from an overly polite and apologetic customer service representative. And our criticisms apparently have to be unified across the board. If some people complain about X Y and Z, you better not have someone else complain about A B and C or else everything can be safely ignored because... inconsistency deems it so.

If <your complaint> contains <words & tones I dislike> or =/= <everyone elses opinion> then it can be safely dismissed.

It's not politics here, nuance and details are very important. Generalizations and hurt feelings are just avoiding the real issues. Don't get so triggered, it's video game mechanics, we play this ♥♥♥♥ for fun damnit. It's not an important life changing issue, just relax and be objective, on both sides.

See, what you want is a forum that becomes just like YouTube or Facebook comment threads. That’s never going to happen as long as I can help it. If you cannot deliver criticism civilly you’ll be banned. THEN you can go to Facebook and lie to those people that you got banned solely because TFP doesn’t allow criticism.

So relax and state your criticism objectively without insults and you won’t have any problems. Don’t be so triggered by change that you have to rant and assume the worst motives for those changes and throw insults against the developers or those who disagree. It’s just a video game. We play it for fun.

 

[Bubbahotetp]

That type of un-constructive sentiment is why I came out of lurk mode to express appreciation for this update, and all the hard work the team is doing. <3

You took what I said out of context. That was no stand-alone post just so I had something to say, but was in response to the sentiment that everybody not agreeing with devs or fanboys should just shut up. Kinda what you're trying to do.

 

[Bubbahotetp]

Most of this thread *edit* more than my money's worth.

And if you actually offer suggestions of what you want, you get angry responses like "You can't tell the devs what to do! It's their game blabla!"

Can't win. I can talk, but I can't win. But I can talk.

 

[DaVegaNL]

You know, it's fine. We tried, but there's no reason to waste more time trying to open the discussion if it ends up being ignored in the end and our opinions are going to be dismissed. We tried and offered our time and willingnes to help to improve the game by providing our feedback, so they know we are here, they know where to find us if and when they change their minds and actually decide to find out what we believe would be good for the game.
- - - Updated - - -

Oh please... Nobody denies you your personal opinion, but don't act like you're speaking for everyone here. You can only speak for yourself.

Damn. Must have been pretty expensive drama classes.

 

[giKoN]

Yep good quote. So I'm guessing TFP don't have to take into account your displeasure with a17e, right? Since you're just one more person in the game.
- - - Updated - - -

No-lifers, unite!

Feels weird, defending 7 days to die.

OH MY GOD WHAT DID I BECOME?!

The Review statistics have been overly discussed by now and I can only recommend going through those posts before bringing them up again.

 

[mr.devolver]

Pre-a17e forum critics, unite!


You know.. or get a coffee together or something..

What's your preference? Stain of coffee on shirt, or a smudge of chocolate around mouth?

 

[Bubo]